TPM,
Perhaps I need to clarify myself a bit on my position. I truly believe we are pretty much getting at the same thing. I never did clarify equency of pitch type my son throws. Reading back over some of my posts it may come across as if my son throws a lot of breaking balls, perhaps more than his fastball. I generally keep track of pitch type %. Son generally is in the 60-70% fastball range. There have been a few games where he was below 60% and a few above 70%. This thus means his primary pitch(most frequent) is the fastball. For his age, his breaking pitch is well above average as we were told at a recent camp. He was evaluated by a current professional pitcher. Son prides himself in his ability to command that pitch and have success with it. That pride however does not take away from his number one goal- adding velocity to his fastball. He knows he has to bump his velocity up another 3-5 mph by next year if he wants to get in with a good high level program. I know for a fact that he works harder than anyone on the teams he plays with to add that velocity- has always had that fastball velocity focus. Around here he has one of the strongest arms for his age.
Just to be clear, his fastball is and always has been his number one focus. Like many have said- velocity is key to going places. Son knows that and works very hard at it.
Well Skylark you could have fooled me.
All I can remember is you posting over and over about your son's curve and how successful he has been because of it. Never heard much about his FB.
Oh, and then there was that time about the gyroball.....just sayin....
Yeah, that gyroball...thing of beauty! A pitchers primary pitch is enhanced to greater and greater degrees on the effectiveness and quality of the secondary pitch. A batter who knows a pitcher has a devastating secondary pitch that pitcher can command makes it all the more important to try to hit the fastball. Only problem is, you dont know when its comin.
What you feel is command in h.s. is not really command. I don't remember ANYONE hitting Bum, Jr.'s curveball in h.s. It was a quality pitch even then but it didn't matter where it was placed. That same pitch now can paint -- and it has to.
Its all relative Bum. Each new level finds the pitcher learning or changing to achieve success. Command of a pitch begins in little league. Good pitchers separate themselves by their ability to command at each new level but in reality, command is command regardless of what a pitcher learns or changes for each new level.
Just for the record, many of the best pitching prospects we see didn't even pitch in Little League. Command without good stuff, isn't command, it's just good control for a young pitcher. Locating pitches is absolutely necessary for below average pitchers, but most often it is not enough. Location is huge for those with above average talent.
Not really, Skylark. In h.s. it is about development of an above-average fastball without a lot of walks along with a breaking pitch which enables a young pitcher to move on. That's not command. An upper 80's fastball along with a serviceable breaking pitch will win a lot of games regardless of placement because most h.s. hitters will be over-matched.
Most pitchers go backwards (yes, I said it) in college because the once-dominant fastball gets raked in college, so they start to throw college sliders and other junk that in the end is a waste. Even commanded fastballs in college can get ravaged by the metal bat.
The light at the end of the tunnel is wood, but most pitchers never get that privilege. They don't get that privilege not because they're hit in h.s. or college, not because of their stats or command of a breaking pitch, but because of one thing and one thing only: Lack of an MLB or better fastball.
Perhaps I have this completely bizarre idea of what "command" means in baseball because I always thought "command" means "placement". The idea of "command without good stuff, isnt command" is beyond confusion! Interpreting that is pretty much like saying- placing a pitch isnt placement if it isnt good. What? Perhaps you can decipher what you meant cause I certainly cant.
Bum, it is all relative. By that I mean that for each level you have below average, average, or above average skills for that level. An above average breaking ball in hs has the same effect on good hitters as it does in professional baseball. Command of a pitch in hs can be graded the same way. We recently went to a camp run by professional players and coaches. On their evaluation sheet they had a place to grade their pitches in 3 areas- velocity, command, movement. They then had a system of grading from 1-3 for each area. 1 being the worst, 3 being the best. For my son he was graded with a "3" in the command of all three of his pitches. The evaluator, a current professional pitcher of 5 years, wrote "great command of zone and your pitches". Now I am assuming that the evaluation and their words of evaluating are done so in the context of relativity as it pertains to the level they are at, it being high school. What I am getting at is that each level has its grade of things like velocity, control, command, stuff, etc.
If I'm looking at two pitchers both throwing to the exact same location... It is very likely that one commands the strikezone better (higher "command" grade) than the other. To simply place the baseball in a certain spot is good control. For example location of the fastball thrown at 75 mph is critical but it is difficult to say the pitcher has command. The same location at 95 mph is a completely different story. When he paints the corners, he has command! To be able to do it and get hitters out or swing and miss is command. To simply throw to a location is what BP pitchers do!
I know people say that command is the ability to throw it where you want. From a grading perspective that just doesn't work that way. Location doesn't matter... If one pitcher throws a breaking ball where he wants but the pitch has no quality breaking action... that is not great command of that pitch! No matter what anyone thinks.
Skylark,
I think you are assuming wrong. At least when it comes to scouting. First of all, MLB scouts use a 2 - 8 system of grading, not a 1-3. Often there will be two grades (present) and (future). They are all based on MLB level. So if someone in junior high school can throw the ball 100 mph they will have 8 velocity. If they throw 80 mph they will have 2 velocity. Now the future grade (OFP) of that 80 mph kid might be whatever the scout believes is his potential. But each level doesn't have a different grade based on the level he is at, it just takes a lower grade to be successful the lower the level is. Anyway, one thing for sure is great command is a combination of the ability to locate and the quality of the pitch. Without the quality pitch, there can be no great command. If it were any other way the good BP pitchers would be pitching in the games. Anyway... Sounds like your son has something going for him. Do you have any video you can post?
Various videos over last couple of years-
http://www.youtube.com/user/47GBM?feature=watch
I certainly agree that proper limitations and rest intervals are key, though this is primarily a concern when we're talking about pitchers.
But sometimes, some of these notes sound like saying, you can avoid a lot of car accidents by not driving at all.
Meaning, for most players, Little League is as far as they will go. Taken to extremes, all this hands-off stuff will deny a kid his primary life experience in baseball.
What's more, most high school players do not play beyond high school.
And most college players don't play beyond college.
When I look back on my experiences watching and coaching my son, and when he looks back on them, we don't think, "Gee maybe I overdid it." We think, "What I wouldn't give to be able to do it all over again."
I'm glad we didn't miss any of his playing opportunities while they were there to be had. Because sure as shootin', some day all those opportunities are done and gone.
And with all due respect to Dr. Andrews -- and having dealt with him once, I do have immense respect for him -- he's not really in a position to talk about "burnout", which IMHO is a complete myth.
I never hear kids talk about being burned out. I hear parents use that term, when someone wonders why their kid doesn't play any more. It's a parental excuse for the kid who quit playing.
The real reasons kids quit are often quite sensible and need no justification. Kids quit because they find other life activities that they prefer -- maybe in another sport, or another field entirely; maybe a job; maybe a girlfriend. Some kids quit because they look around and realize they aren't good enough to keep up; that's the one the parents never want to acknowledge, but the truth is, quite often kids see the real situation when the parents refuse to see it.
Sometimes kids just quit because they just don't enjoy the game. While that attitude is foreign to me, I acknowledge that there are some misguided people in this world who really don't like baseball.
I will say that baseball is probably the most difficult game of all those that kids attempt. Lots of kids find it very difficult to make contact at the plate. Some never get the hang of catching a fly ball. Others never overcome fear of the baseball, whether batting or in the field. Baseball offers great life lessons and challenges in having to persevere through repeated failures. Some folks find all that failure more disheartening than challenging. But I don't consider that "burnout", because it has nothing to do with how much you play or don't play. It's just a fact that no one thing is for everybody, and it's only natural that many find their passions in other pursuits.
PG, I think I understand the semantics you are using. You are using "command" from more of a pro scout perspective whereas I was using in the perspective of just "placement". Is that correct?