NY Times article

Thank you for posting this NY MOM. This should be required reading for all involved with the great game of baseball.

Very impressive article. Thanks for sharing.

I agree with Deb Patch.

This has got to be a $$$$$$ deal for the large bat manufactures but I am having trouble connecting the dots. Do all of the bat manufactures not also make wood bats? If wood bats break would they not make up the difference with volume? I know that college coaches are against wood due to endorsement deals but would they not have endorsement deals for wood bats? Is it just change that everyone is scared of? Someone help me understand this.

It's unfortunate, but to sum it up, as the saying goes,

"Chicks dig the long ball!"

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"Chicks dig the long ball!"

Hey, wasn't there a guy named that around here at one time?

As you say, unfortunately. I know one of the big reps from one of the big atomic metal bat companies. He has used this argument over-and-over again for years as to why we need to keep using atomic metal bats. He says the home run has saved the game and atomic metal bats have popularized college baseball.

To be honest, I liked the game big league game better when they stole bases, squeezed in runs, sacrificed runners over and hit-and-run'd a lot more. But maybe I'm a dinosaur.

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Hey, wasn't there a guy named that around here at one time?

Ssssshhhhhhh, he might come back.

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To be honest, I liked the game big league game better when they stole bases, squeezed in runs, sacrificed runners over and hit-and-run'd a lot more. But maybe I'm a dinosaur. Big Grin

Amen! I'm in the tar pit with you.

I'm not going to rain on any one's parade today but since pitchers have been have been hit with line drives throughout the history of the game are there more injuries now because of the bat?

Is there data to support that? No. From a data collection model you cannot substanuate the "what ifs".

Does it have anything to do with the fact that overall batters are physically stronger today thus more of them are hitting the ball harder and as a result even if wood was the "bat of choice" would there still be more injuries today than 15 years ago.

If you're at 60'6" from the plate and a ball is coming at you at 120 mph what difference would it make if it was coming at 110 mph? At that distance would the milisecond reaction time make a difference? The human is the smartest being on earth but they still need to process reactions. In most cases a batter does not even have time to dodge a 85mph pitch. If you are going to make this argument you have to be aware of the physics involed related to time, distance, and speed.

Regardless of the bat I feel that it is an ugly reality of the game.

justbaseball:

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Originally posted by justbaseball:

To be honest, I liked the game big league game better when they stole bases, squeezed in runs, sacrificed runners over and hit-and-run'd a lot more. But maybe I'm a dinosaur.

Scoot over T-Rex...they don't call me Triceratops because of my spiked doo and sweet disposition! I'm an old, creaky dinosaur like you...I too admire all of the old fashioned ways of scoring runs more frequently.

The long ball has always been with us and will forever be around...nothing wrong with scoring runs that way either...just don't cater to it.

Chicks may dig the long ball alright, but last I checked they also liked being squeezed tenderly, having their heart stolen, watching their special guy running over to make sacrifices, and being fit-and-sun'd.

I'm not going to do the math for you, but that 10 mph could make a huge difference, especially if the ball isn't ticketed right to the center of the body. Also, I don't see too many batters that can't avoid an 85mph fastball. Many don't want to.

Of course it would be safer to use wood, but it not fair to aluminmum bat companies, and all the people who have purchased very expensive bats. I know I can't afford to use wood bats and keep having to buy and more and more as they keep breaking.

rz1 make a great point. Even eliminating aluminum bats doesn't stop the injuries.

There is no way to resolve the problem with both sides being happy.

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Originally posted by rz1:
I'm not going to rain on any one's parade today but since pitchers have been have been hit with line drives throughout the history of the game are there more injuries now because of the bat?

rz1 - You're not raining on my parade. Having just read the book, Freakonomics (an excellent read by the way), I would like to see the data too if it exists. Things aren't always as they might seem.

My son is living proof (thank God!) that a wood bat can do a heck of a lot of damage. I asked him, "Did you see the ball coming at you?" "The whole way, and I couldn't do a dang thing fast enough...I tried...to get out of the way," was his reponse.

BUT...as an engineer, I am pretty darn convinced that the atomic metal bats of today cut down that reaction time just a little bit more and that "little bit more" might be enough for someone's kid to get killed.

My friend the bat rep. sure seems to know that his atomic metal bats generate/transfer more energy to the ball and uses that argument (spell that m-o-r-e h-o-m-e r-u-n-s) to sell his bats.

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Of course it would be safer to use wood, but it not fair to aluminmum bat companies, and all the people who have purchased very expensive bats.

Catch43 - Sorry, but that just isn't a good enough reason. The bat companies are making a LOT of $$ off of you...they wouldn't be pushing them so hard if there wasn't more profit in those atomic metal bats than in the natural kind. My bat rep. friend works awfully hard to keep them in the game. Ever wonder why?

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From a data collection model you cannot substanuate the "what ifs".

Very true. However, reaction time aside, assuming you are going to get hit either way, that "little extra pop off the metal bat" might mean the difference between a couple of surgeries or "God forbid", worse.

Just another one of those, we'll agree to disagree things.

The following is my opinion only. Those who know me will understand there is no scientific thinking involved.

Someone from the NY Times actually interviewed me about this subject, evidently they didn’t use what I said. (probably for good reason) My response was… Both metal and wood bats are extremely dangerous, to a pitcher especially. I have seen balls hit so hard you can’t react with both types of bats. Also have seen equally long home runs hit with each type bat.

To me the biggest difference is in frequency of balls that are hit so hard. It’s my belief that more balls are hit like lasers off the metal bat because of the larger portion of the barrel that can allow it to happen. Thus metal bats are more dangerous because of frequency more than exit speed or rebound factor. I do not believe the 20 mph difference in the two. We see too many gun readings off both types of bats to believe that figure. But I could be wrong!

Also the higher the level of play the more often you see balls centered and hit hard with wood. At the lower levels wood would be much much safer!!!

Makes sense to me PGStaff. But I really don't know either.

BTW, we ALSO knew about the article going back 2-3 weeks for somewhat obvious reasons.

PG, excellent post...The greater frequency of hard hit balls with metal is part of the problem at all levels. A kid has better odds of crossing a country road without getting hit by a car then he does say the L.A. freeway.

In looking at the numbers of the recently concluded WWBA (18u) Nationals, don't think the NCAA will be switching to wood anytime soon... i.e. 2129 total runs scored in 570 pool play games for a paltry 3.7 runs per game. Last time I checked DI stats, a team averaging 7.5 runs scored per game was only ranked like 35th in the country and tied at that with about 5 other teams.

NYdad,

It's unfortunate that the emphasis is (perhaps) on run scored. My younger son's game a few days ago was 16-15. It was one of the WORST games I've ever seen. Give me 4-3 anyday.

PG's analysis seems right.. bigger barrel, more hits, more comebackers (and more runs).

I don't think the home run has "saved the game", as stated in an earlier post. I think it has cheapened it. Pick up your local paper, and usually the first stat listed is "Home Runs". Why? This game is more about good pitching than home runs.

Here's an opinion from a youth coach, worth every penny you paid for it.

I personally would love to see kids go back to wood bats instead of whatever high dollar aluminum bat that daddy thinks will help his kid hit one out (instead of taking the time to go into the back yard and PRACTICE with his son). I don't think there's a snowballs chance of that happening though, for all the reasons already stated.

I'm convinced that the aluminum bat companies, given enough incentive, could develop a bat that has all the same characteristics as wood (same weight, drop, BESR, and same sized 'sweet spot').

Short of using the above 'wood equivalent' bat the youth organizatoins could develop a list of Approved Bats which meet weight, drop, and BESR criteria. This sure wouldn't be popular with the bat companies though, because they would lose much of their high dollar atomic bat business.

I realize we are at 4800 feet in altitude here, but when 5'7" 150 lb kids are hitting bombs, something is wrong.

A co-worker has a freshman son who had to get the "latest, greatest" bat so he could keep up with the "Jones'". It worked. He's peppering the fences now instead of being satisfied hitting singles.

Does MLB have a postion on the bat issue?
Interested in hearing from those involved at the pro level. Gotta believe they are major benefactors of going to wood at the H.S. and collegiate levels being they should see better returns on their investments.

Our Legion league has used wood for the last 3 yrs...a fair number of broken bats, but when you add the total cost versus the cost of the $300+++ aluminum, I don't think it computes [unless you factor in the cost of gas to go buy them ]

Cost is even less of a factor for younger kids - their aluminum bats cost almost as much and they wouldn't break nearly the number of wood bats as older guys.

As the dad of a pitcher entering college this fall, I'm "all about the wood"...

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Originally posted by windmill:
Cost is even less of a factor for younger kids - their aluminum bats cost almost as much and they wouldn't break nearly the number of wood bats as older guys.

And I believe THAT, right there is the primary reason the atomic metal bats continue at the collegiate (and thus HS...and thus LL) level. Its the sale to the kids that they care the most about. That and feeding us parents' ego when Junior hits a dinger. Thats where the $$ are to be made. Virtually every kid I knew went out and bought the "Omaha" bats after their debut at the CWS 5-8 years ago.

BTW, with the new birthday cutoff for LL, how long until some 12-year old kid gets his head taken off on national TV?

Let's not place all the blame on the bat. The ball is the object that does the damage. If your looking for a solution, include the ball in the discussion. Maybe slightly softer balls could be used at younger ages. The softer the ball, slower it comes off the bat.

I think most little leagues use a softer ball anyway.

By the way, the impact force created by a ball is directly proportional to the velocity. So, if a metal bat creates an increased velocity of 10mph (compared to wood) up to 115mph the increased impact force is 9%.

Want more number crunching? Here is the difference in reaction times for a pitcher:

115 mph 0.325 seconds

105 mph 0.357 seconds

It doesn't make much difference. PG's point on the frequency is the only one that raises my concern.

The aluminum bat has completely distorted the game - just the way that astroturf did.

Its a money making - ego feeding joke - and all you need to do is go and watch a couple wood bat games to understand.

The amount of money involved in the aluminum bat industry - and the amount of people willing to take the money - is overwhelming. I do not see it changing anytime soon - to the detriment of our kids - and to the detriment of the game.

As for the aluminum bat companies and their BESR and injury statistics - they are liars. You dont need to be Albert Einstein to know what is happening. All you need to do is go to a few games.

IMO - We reap what we sow. So be it.

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Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Its a money making - ego feeding joke - and all you need to do is go and watch a couple wood bat games to understand.

I'm with ya itsinthegame! I am here on the Cape (wood bats) this week...have watched 2 games so far...watched over 100 D1 games in the past 2 seasons. There is no comparison in terms of the pop off the bat on a consistent basis.

Lets quit dancing and cut to the chase...neither you nor I would spend $200 more and buy an atomic metal bat for our sons unless our son and WE believed it would add hits, extra base hits and HRs to his stats. We start at 6/7 years old and we don't quit until they make us (pro or PG events).

If there was no difference in performance, no difference in cost, no difference in profits...don't you think we'd all be using wood bats from a young age? Look, I probably used one of the very first aluminum bats in the late 60's/early 70's in youth baseball...much, much less technology than today. There was no comparison then and there is none now.

Atomic metal bats pose more danger to pitchers and corner infielders. Period.

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I'm with ya itsinthegame! I am here on the Cape (wood bats) this week...have watched 2 games so far...watched over 100 D1 games in the past 2 seasons. There is no comparison in terms of the pop off the bat on a consistent basis.

justbb, isn't it amazing how money can impact and create rationalization over what is so obvious. But when you have the money, you are able to change the discussion from whether it is safe to there isn't data to prove it is unsafe, or more dangerous. If the metal bat manufacturers were required to prove the safety of their product rather than everyone else proving it was less or unsafe, what an interesting situation we would have.
Gosh, it is great you are in the Cape. If you happen to have some free time..no chance, and are not going to Fenway, head to Newport. Viewing the mansions and and beauty of the area is fun. Going to Cardenas Field(BA voted it one of the great ballparks in America) and sitting in Mudvilles along the right field line is a blast. You are almost on the field of play on the patio and they serve very cold beer also. I never tried it but "heard" it was really good beer and a great place to watch a game.

Have a great trip. You DESERVE it.

I'll look into it...but I AM headed to Fenway on Thursday. Hoping for no rain.

Fenway is good!!!
They serve cold beer there, too.

justbaseball,

I hope that is not one smiley face in your post for each of the cold frosty ones you plan to enjoy!

How is Erik feeling?

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I hope that is not one smiley face in your post for each of the cold frosty ones you plan to enjoy!

Maybe the ones I've already enjoyed?

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How is Erik feeling?

He's doing ok ...face still hurts. He expects to start (trying) to work out again this week. He looks really good now and the recent doctor appointments have gone well.

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He's doing ok ...face still hurts. He expects to start (trying) to work out again this week. He looks really good now and the recent doctor appointments have gone well.

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As for the aluminum bat companies and their BESR and injury statistics - they are liars. You dont need to be Albert Einstein to know what is happening. All you need to do is go to a few games.

One way to open some eyes and minds on this issue is for MLB to have it's players use metal
bats at next years homerun derby. I'd suggest they also use metal during the all-star game as well but I seriously doubt the pitchers would show up.

Justbaseball,

Thanks for the update on Erik, and glad to hear he is doing well. I think about him often and still remember him in my prayers. About the "face hurts" comment - I would imagine that is fodder for some jokes from the younger siblings??? ("Ha, you think your face is hurting YOU!!!")

Julie