I cringed when I read this, but would be interested to see what the insiders think:
"Fit Young Pitchers See Elbow Repair as Cure-all"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/20/sports/baseball/20sur...h&emc=th&oref=slogin
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Thanks for that link Bordeaux. I had heard of this phenomenon from a friend whose son had TJ done by Dr.Kremchek in Cincinnati two years ago. I'm glad that nobody here offered it as advice in the Add Velocity thread.
There are apparently others who feel that the surgery is "inevitable" for pitchers and want to get it out of the way before their son becomes a "serious" prospect.
There are apparently others who feel that the surgery is "inevitable" for pitchers and want to get it out of the way before their son becomes a "serious" prospect.
Wow!
This reminds me of the East German approach to go ahead and do shoulder impingement surgery (acromioplasty) to their female swimmers as they were juicing them up with Roids...as a PREVENTATIVE measure.
The problem young pitchers run into is that there's no way to be 100% certain that a pitcher does not have a partial UCL tear without surgery. The recovery rate for non surgical rehab is 35 to 50%. Pitchers end up investing a lot of time in the rehab with only a limited chance of success. That is one of the reasons they tend to go ahead with the surgery at the professional level if the rehab doesn't go swimmingly. Generally speaking for a young player the surgery is only worthwhile if there's a full rupture or rehab has failed multiple times and the pitcher has real potential to play at the college level at the very least along with a very strong desire to do so. The opinion on that potential should come from impartial observers.
We thought my son might have a UCL problem so we were worried about what would be the right thing to do but the MRI turned up a stress reaction instead. This is his second time with the stress fracture/reaction. Bobby Jenks had surgery to have a pin inserted after his second bout with a stress reaction in his elbow but as my son is still not far from his growth spurt his bones should be getting denser and the problem should go away with rest then careful rebuilding.
We thought my son might have a UCL problem so we were worried about what would be the right thing to do but the MRI turned up a stress reaction instead. This is his second time with the stress fracture/reaction. Bobby Jenks had surgery to have a pin inserted after his second bout with a stress reaction in his elbow but as my son is still not far from his growth spurt his bones should be getting denser and the problem should go away with rest then careful rebuilding.
quote:Another pitcher gained 3 to 5 miles an hour on his fastball after having the surgery, the father said.
Uh two years later...and another pitcher aged two years and gained 5 mph.
Those people scare me.
A parent subjecting a kid to surgury on a healthy body part is evil, just evil. To even consider it is unfathomable.
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When my '05 was being recruited...
..most of the parents in the stands were quoting velocity increases of 2-3 MPH...
44
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When my '05 was being recruited...
..most of the parents in the stands were quoting velocity increases of 2-3 MPH...
44
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As the parent of a young man who actually HAD to have Tommy John surgery due to tearing his UCL, I hope I'm qualified to make this statement. ANYONE WHO SUBJECTS THEIR KID TO THIS SURGERY AS AN ELECTIVE PROCEDURE, IS OUT OF THEIR FREAKING MIND!!!!! In fact, I'll go so far as to say that they're being horribly negligent in their parenting responsibilities.
Tommy John surgery is a major surgical procedure and should never be taken lightly. The surgeon who performed my son's surgery asked him a very critical question before agreeing to do the surgery. He asked, "If I agree to fix your arm, are you going to go back and try to play college baseball? I need to know, because if you aren't going to play there is no reason to do the surgery, your arm will be ok for everyday living." Apparently, he thinks it's a major surgery and shouldn't be taken lightly. My son had a significant tear, and a lot of opening in the joint with associated pain, and the doc wasn't going to operate unless my son wanted to continue trying to play baseball.
My personal opinion is that any parent who would do this to their kid as a prophylactic procedure, should never be allowed near youth sports again. In fact, they probably shouldn't be allowed near their kid again. This is an example of parental irresponsibility at it's worst!
Tommy John surgery is a major surgical procedure and should never be taken lightly. The surgeon who performed my son's surgery asked him a very critical question before agreeing to do the surgery. He asked, "If I agree to fix your arm, are you going to go back and try to play college baseball? I need to know, because if you aren't going to play there is no reason to do the surgery, your arm will be ok for everyday living." Apparently, he thinks it's a major surgery and shouldn't be taken lightly. My son had a significant tear, and a lot of opening in the joint with associated pain, and the doc wasn't going to operate unless my son wanted to continue trying to play baseball.
My personal opinion is that any parent who would do this to their kid as a prophylactic procedure, should never be allowed near youth sports again. In fact, they probably shouldn't be allowed near their kid again. This is an example of parental irresponsibility at it's worst!
quote:Originally posted by observer44:
.
When my '05 was being recruited...
..most of the parents in the stands were quoting velocity increases of 2-3 MPH...
44
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Problem with these nut jobs is....they don't realize that the velocity increases are from the rehab and not the surgury.
my son also had tj surgery ,not much fun. easily the worst time in his young life. to do this for no reason is beyond abuse. the doctor did over a dozen on the day my son had his.and the doc expressed concern that the kids are younger and younger.
he isn't sorry he had it done ,but the timing wasn't very good. for him it was a gut check (how bad do you want it)and can you get back to where you were?.as much anticipation as hard work coming back,but his arm is fine and it looks like things may work out. as a matter of fact it is one year ago today he had the operation.
if you need this operation to play in college or a good chance you'll play for a living,don't be afraid of it. but nothing a young players parents do surprises me anymore. it does amaze me how smart they get as the player climbs the ladder.
he isn't sorry he had it done ,but the timing wasn't very good. for him it was a gut check (how bad do you want it)and can you get back to where you were?.as much anticipation as hard work coming back,but his arm is fine and it looks like things may work out. as a matter of fact it is one year ago today he had the operation.
if you need this operation to play in college or a good chance you'll play for a living,don't be afraid of it. but nothing a young players parents do surprises me anymore. it does amaze me how smart they get as the player climbs the ladder.
As a parent of a player who is getting ready to have this surgery (8/03/07), I can tell you that this is the last thing we wanted. I'll never forget the surgeon sitting with my son and telling him that this surgery was the only way he would step back on the mound,and my son telling the doc. that he only wanted it if he could come back as strong as before. My son's ucl is torn and he has no other option as the rehab failed. I would like to think that no doctor would perform this surgery on any young ballplayer that didn't need it.
While I believe overuse is a major problem,I also believe that the velocity is a issue.
My son is 16 and 160lbs. He has topped out at 88 in a game but usually throws between 85-87. I'm not sure his arm can handle what it's trying to do. I recently spoke to another parent whose son is the same age as mine and is going thru the same thing. His son has thrown low 90's.(perfect game showcase) and I can't help feeling that thier arms arn't strong enough to handle the velocity that thier throwing. No matter how much conditioning they do it puts a lot of stress on thier arms to throw that hard.
Was wondering if anyone had a opinion on this?
I also agree with CADad that the players potential should be considered.
While I believe overuse is a major problem,I also believe that the velocity is a issue.
My son is 16 and 160lbs. He has topped out at 88 in a game but usually throws between 85-87. I'm not sure his arm can handle what it's trying to do. I recently spoke to another parent whose son is the same age as mine and is going thru the same thing. His son has thrown low 90's.(perfect game showcase) and I can't help feeling that thier arms arn't strong enough to handle the velocity that thier throwing. No matter how much conditioning they do it puts a lot of stress on thier arms to throw that hard.
Was wondering if anyone had a opinion on this?
I also agree with CADad that the players potential should be considered.
20dad: Happy Anniversary to 20son. I hope things do work out for him. Thanks for the links.....
banditsbb: Good luck to your son. I hope the surgery and rehab are successful. We'll have to compare notes --my son is scheduled for TJ this coming Monday.
Bordeaux: Thanks for the article. Wow, is right!
What our surgeon believes is that there is too much focus and concentration on playing year round and playing only one sport. He believes that by doing that, the kids are not able to rest their body and that leads to more injuries. He sees an increase in injuries that require surgeries, too, and not just with baseball. Swimming, volleyball.... What on earth are we doing to our kids?
banditsbb: Good luck to your son. I hope the surgery and rehab are successful. We'll have to compare notes --my son is scheduled for TJ this coming Monday.
Bordeaux: Thanks for the article. Wow, is right!
What our surgeon believes is that there is too much focus and concentration on playing year round and playing only one sport. He believes that by doing that, the kids are not able to rest their body and that leads to more injuries. He sees an increase in injuries that require surgeries, too, and not just with baseball. Swimming, volleyball.... What on earth are we doing to our kids?
banditsbb,
That was a very thought-provoking post. First of all, my heart goes out to you and your son and I hope and pray all goes well with the surgery. My LHP son is 5'10", 165 lb. (17 y.o.) and (thank God) healthy at this point. But his speed also worries me. He was recently clocked at 88. I try to have him do band work and long-toss, and he has been told he has excellent mechanics, but you bring up a GREAT question, I think. How hard is too hard at what age?
There is one kid in our area who I remember at age 12 clocked at 71. At 15, he was mid-80's and 16 upper-80's to near 90. He had Tommy John surgery last year at age 17.
Be careful, everyone.
That was a very thought-provoking post. First of all, my heart goes out to you and your son and I hope and pray all goes well with the surgery. My LHP son is 5'10", 165 lb. (17 y.o.) and (thank God) healthy at this point. But his speed also worries me. He was recently clocked at 88. I try to have him do band work and long-toss, and he has been told he has excellent mechanics, but you bring up a GREAT question, I think. How hard is too hard at what age?
There is one kid in our area who I remember at age 12 clocked at 71. At 15, he was mid-80's and 16 upper-80's to near 90. He had Tommy John surgery last year at age 17.
Be careful, everyone.
I once heard that just because a young kid is gifted and can throw hard they shouldn't because the arm is growing and it would cause stress on joints etc. They should let their bodies mature untill it can handle the stress of their god given ability
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20dad
Play Baseball
Exactly. With all good intentions...There is a fine line between dream and disaster. IMO we as a society have too often adopted a "win at all costs" philosophy for our kids. And while the physical toll can be very visible and makes us cringe and post in capital letters and exclaimation points....the emotional toll can be just as, or more devastating, and it is FAR more widespread. And it may be a lifetime until the emotional scars surface or heal. There are lines, both physical AND mental/emotional, that we have to be VERY careful not to cross.
I have seen 12 year old players have complete nervous breakdowns and speak in tounges. Watched happily blind parents conveniently look the other way while their High School sons took steroids. I am currently watching a family in therapy because an a '07 is going to turn down a DI baseball scholarship a few weeks before he was to go to school, "tired of baseball"....it was his parents dream not his.
Does this mean that we don't dream of the top for our children? Absolutley not. Does this mean we don't push the limits? No. Does this mean that we coddle and pamper? Absolutely not. Life is going to be hard our sons MUST be prepared to take it head on. We have a responsibilty to fully prepare them. And they have to be pushed and challenged at times. But we also must respect and honor our young athletes on their path to adulthood...at a pace and on a path that makes sense for them based on the physical and emotional gifts that they were given. (while you may be able to add a few more miles per hour, and may have a late bump, not every player was given the God given ability to reach 95 even with TJ operation...sorry, that is the reality)
The problem is that IMHO youth sports, and success in that venue, is seen by many as an end in and of itself, when in reality youth sports is best ultilized as method to build better adults and human beings. I know that this may be construed as sacreligious, but raising healthy, happy, productive, acheiving adults is the real goal. College scholarships and professional sports careers and 95 MPH fastballs are a possible side effect of the bigger goal of parenthood. Give me a happy, well adjusted son, built in part thorough the challenging experience and difficult lessons of baseball, and I'll be happy....even if he tops out at 86.
44
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20dad
quote:...nothing a young players parents do surprises me anymore.
Play Baseball
quote:...What on earth are we doing to our kids?
Exactly. With all good intentions...There is a fine line between dream and disaster. IMO we as a society have too often adopted a "win at all costs" philosophy for our kids. And while the physical toll can be very visible and makes us cringe and post in capital letters and exclaimation points....the emotional toll can be just as, or more devastating, and it is FAR more widespread. And it may be a lifetime until the emotional scars surface or heal. There are lines, both physical AND mental/emotional, that we have to be VERY careful not to cross.
I have seen 12 year old players have complete nervous breakdowns and speak in tounges. Watched happily blind parents conveniently look the other way while their High School sons took steroids. I am currently watching a family in therapy because an a '07 is going to turn down a DI baseball scholarship a few weeks before he was to go to school, "tired of baseball"....it was his parents dream not his.
Does this mean that we don't dream of the top for our children? Absolutley not. Does this mean we don't push the limits? No. Does this mean that we coddle and pamper? Absolutely not. Life is going to be hard our sons MUST be prepared to take it head on. We have a responsibilty to fully prepare them. And they have to be pushed and challenged at times. But we also must respect and honor our young athletes on their path to adulthood...at a pace and on a path that makes sense for them based on the physical and emotional gifts that they were given. (while you may be able to add a few more miles per hour, and may have a late bump, not every player was given the God given ability to reach 95 even with TJ operation...sorry, that is the reality)
The problem is that IMHO youth sports, and success in that venue, is seen by many as an end in and of itself, when in reality youth sports is best ultilized as method to build better adults and human beings. I know that this may be construed as sacreligious, but raising healthy, happy, productive, acheiving adults is the real goal. College scholarships and professional sports careers and 95 MPH fastballs are a possible side effect of the bigger goal of parenthood. Give me a happy, well adjusted son, built in part thorough the challenging experience and difficult lessons of baseball, and I'll be happy....even if he tops out at 86.
44.
Observer44,
quote:Originally posted by njbb:
I once heard that just because a young kid is gifted and can throw hard they shouldn't because the arm is growing and it would cause stress on joints etc. They should let their bodies mature untill it can handle the stress of their god given ability
I agree with this 100%. That's why I cringe when I see someone pointing the radar gun on 13,14, 15,16 year olds.
Zach Greinke is a great example of this, didn't pitch untill his sr year of high school. this may have merit,but for every example like this you can show ten that always threw.
i've heard many theorys on arm injury,but i didn't really look for any until my son was hurt. lots of ideas but it takes 4 or 5 years or more to prove a theory. not enough time for most, and since every kid is different that won't always work.
i find that most theory's come from a parent or baseball guy with kids who haven't had arm injury's or no kids at all,so what ever they did works best. maybe, maybe not. but i'll listen to them all cause someones right. the hard part is pickin the fly shet from the pepper.
great post 44
i've heard many theorys on arm injury,but i didn't really look for any until my son was hurt. lots of ideas but it takes 4 or 5 years or more to prove a theory. not enough time for most, and since every kid is different that won't always work.
i find that most theory's come from a parent or baseball guy with kids who haven't had arm injury's or no kids at all,so what ever they did works best. maybe, maybe not. but i'll listen to them all cause someones right. the hard part is pickin the fly shet from the pepper.
great post 44
Superb 44!
Great post O44!
quote:Originally posted by 20dad:
Zach Greinke is a great example of this, didn't pitch untill his sr year of high school. this may have merit,but for every example like this you can show ten that always threw.
Well sorta. I live about 2 miles from Zachs high school, know his dad and my kid played with his brother Luke on a scout team. Zach pitched a bit during high school. He was a legit two-way player, although foot speed was not great. He could hit, field and throw. He had an electric arm through high school and showed it off in the field...and pitched some before senior year. His brother Luke, now at Auburn, also has the arm speed, but pitched little but pitched. He did pitch though and was basicly Auburns closer as a freshman. Zach and Lukes dad Don Greinke did a very good job limiting innings without alienating coaches.
I recall a statistic that was 70% of MLB pitchers were from north of the Mason-Dixon line.
i met zach in jupiter after he was drafted,he was there to watch his little brother.who we were playing against. my mistake about the pitching, maybe he said didn't pitch much. anyway i apoligize for not being factual.
interesting number 70%. i wonder if it's the lack of playing or innings?
interesting number 70%. i wonder if it's the lack of playing or innings?
He pitched so little before senior year he actually might have forgotten. Compared to nearly everyone else, the Greinkes pitched next to nothing before getting out of high school. They were both excellent position players. Hardly connecting the dots but the time off that northern pitchers get offseason seems to lengthen careers.