This is not baseball related, but since my other son is a wrestler I thought I'd post this here to see what others think about this:
Tecumseh Herald Article
Thoughts?
Original Post
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Where's the rest of the video? 
I'll never understand wrestling. I'd rather have the ref's hands around my throat than the other guys' groin around my neck.
I'll never understand wrestling. I'd rather have the ref's hands around my throat than the other guys' groin around my neck.
what was the prelude to this?
I never saw the video on the webpage but I'm surprised my schools internet security allowed the link to open.
Without full knowledge I wonder if the ref has knowledge / training in restraining people like a cop has to know. If he does then I don't see the problem because if the kid was truly being choked I find it hard to believe he would be able to yell out anything like the article said he did.
Not saying it justifies it but how was either kid acting during the match would say a lot about the conduct of both kids. This opens a whole bunch of issues of if the ref tried to control what was going on or if this was just escalation of things.
Plus these are wrestlers and they are very strong and aggressive. It may have to take extra measures to separate two guys who get into it.
Without full knowledge I wonder if the ref has knowledge / training in restraining people like a cop has to know. If he does then I don't see the problem because if the kid was truly being choked I find it hard to believe he would be able to yell out anything like the article said he did.
Not saying it justifies it but how was either kid acting during the match would say a lot about the conduct of both kids. This opens a whole bunch of issues of if the ref tried to control what was going on or if this was just escalation of things.
Plus these are wrestlers and they are very strong and aggressive. It may have to take extra measures to separate two guys who get into it.
This is from the article:
From what I've been hearing (and this is only what I've heard as I've never personally seen this referee officiate any of my son's meets), this ref has a huge ego and quite often makes the matches "about him" rather than just calling the points.
quote:The incident happened during the championship final between Tecumseh and Woodhaven. Tecumseh senior Tim Elkins and his opponent grappled their way out of bounds and were stopped by a whistle. After the official separated the two, Elkins attempted to go back after his opponent and was stopped by Schifter. The official can be seen in the video with his hand gripping the throat of Elkins while backing him up and yelling, "No. You don't misbehave on my mat! Don't misbehave on my mat!"
From what I've been hearing (and this is only what I've heard as I've never personally seen this referee officiate any of my son's meets), this ref has a huge ego and quite often makes the matches "about him" rather than just calling the points.
I think that official is lucky it ended as well as it did.
You can't do what he did. I would say that was the last wrestling match he will ever officiate.
You can't do what he did. I would say that was the last wrestling match he will ever officiate.
And it should be the kid's last match, as well, for attacking his opponent out of bounds. You can't do that, either.
We don't know what occurred leading up to where the video started. We don't know the kid's history. We don't know the ref's history. The video didn't match my expectation of what I read "grabbed him by the throat." The athlete sounded spoiled yelling back at the ref. He could have turned and retreated. He chose not to. In fact it looked like he was resistant. He also moved forward and made chest to chest contact with the ref. If the kid isn't seen as defending himself he may be in trouble. The ref may be suspended even if he didn't do anything wrong (not saying he didn't/the video doesn't tell enough of the story).
quote:Originally posted by Vicarious Dad:
And it should be the kid's last match, as well, for attacking his opponent out of bounds. You can't do that, either.
I would need to see what the kid actually did to make that call but you have to believe it was pretty bad to get the reaction he got from the ref. I am not excusing the wrestlers behavior, I just don't know exactly what he did.
My brother wrestled throughout high school and it is a pretty brutal sport that requires a massive amount of discipline. I never had it
Never the less, you just can't do what the official did. That had the potential to end in a bad way on many different levels.
The video showed the wrestler backing up and telling the ref to let go of his throat. That's enough for me, no matter what preceded it. The ref would never be on a mat again. Even if it's his mat... 
Until we see what led up to this 'select' clip none of us can do anything but speculate
There's no speculation necessary when you see the hand of an official on the throat of a participant.
baseballdad
I respectfully disagree---until you know what brought on the reaction you can do nothing but speculate--perhaps the wrestler went "at" the ref?
And trust me I am not a fan of referees/umps
I respectfully disagree---until you know what brought on the reaction you can do nothing but speculate--perhaps the wrestler went "at" the ref?
And trust me I am not a fan of referees/umps
The son of a good friend is a wrestling official. In fact, he works some very big events.
Iowa was wrestling Iowa State on television and he was the referee. Wrestling is real big in Iowa for those that might not know.
The whole thing turned into what became a show featuring the referee. It was actually kind of embarrassing because we knew the referee so well. Yes, he does have a very large ego!
Iowa was wrestling Iowa State on television and he was the referee. Wrestling is real big in Iowa for those that might not know.
The whole thing turned into what became a show featuring the referee. It was actually kind of embarrassing because we knew the referee so well. Yes, he does have a very large ego!
TR,
Your point is understood. However, IMO, the day an official puts his hand on a participant's throat should be his last opportunity to do so.
Even on his mat...
Your point is understood. However, IMO, the day an official puts his hand on a participant's throat should be his last opportunity to do so.
Even on his mat...
In baseball, there are a number of techniques we teach to new umpires to use when trying to separate players involved in a scuffle.....none of them involve grasping a player....
Herding:- get between the players.... arms outstretched...,if its a batter and a catcher, I teach them to face the player with the bat....you need to see that coming.....use your body to herd them apart, while maintaining a hands free approach....
Then enters your partner....
Rodeo Clown:- Once the herding begins the other umpire distracts the other party and then using the same method herds him towards his dugout....
If this does not break it up, or if they re-engage, its time to stand back and take out your notebook to take names and numbers for the ejection report...
Herding:- get between the players.... arms outstretched...,if its a batter and a catcher, I teach them to face the player with the bat....you need to see that coming.....use your body to herd them apart, while maintaining a hands free approach....
Then enters your partner....
Rodeo Clown:- Once the herding begins the other umpire distracts the other party and then using the same method herds him towards his dugout....
If this does not break it up, or if they re-engage, its time to stand back and take out your notebook to take names and numbers for the ejection report...
This was wrestling, not tiddley winks. That kid wasn't hurt.
lol, you guys never would have made it through Catholic school. They used to do that stuff to us in first grade.
lol, you guys never would have made it through Catholic school. They used to do that stuff to us in first grade.
AntzDad
And if you went home and complained you got it all over again from your parents
And if you went home and complained you got it all over again from your parents
Antz,
I made it through 12 years of Catholic school and can still tie a tie with the best of them.
My opinion extends to your comparison: If a tiddley winks official put his hand on the throat of a tiddley winks competitor, he should be banned from tiddley winks from that point on.
I made it through 12 years of Catholic school and can still tie a tie with the best of them.
My opinion extends to your comparison: If a tiddley winks official put his hand on the throat of a tiddley winks competitor, he should be banned from tiddley winks from that point on.
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
This was wrestling, not tiddley winks. That kid wasn't hurt.
lol, you guys never would have made it through Catholic school. They used to do that stuff to us in first grade.
You miss the point. It doesn't matter if the kid was hurt or not. The official's job is to officiate, not escalate a bad situation into one that could potentially be far far worse.
So anything goes, as long as "the kid isn't hurt"?
Football, wrestling, Tennis, baseball...pick a sport. You can't do what that ref did, period. Being tough has nothing to do with it.
I would venture a guess you wouldn’t be too happy to see an ump behind the plate grab your kid by the throat for saying something about a pitch call he didn’t like. Or would that be OK with you, as long as “he didn’t get hurt”?
If my kid were attacking another player, with, perhaps, a crazed look in his eyes, I would hope somebody would grab him, if he didn't heed commands to stop.
Haven't you (all) ever seen somebody with that look? They don't listen. In the movies, they slap the person in the face. "Snap out of it." To me, it's not far-fetched to think a wrestler could be in that state of mind.
What would you (all) do? Stand back and watch someone go crazy on another kid?
Haven't you (all) ever seen somebody with that look? They don't listen. In the movies, they slap the person in the face. "Snap out of it." To me, it's not far-fetched to think a wrestler could be in that state of mind.
What would you (all) do? Stand back and watch someone go crazy on another kid?
How about holding him by the arm while he was backing up?
baseballdad
ever been in a situation where somebody was going a bit nuts---I have--you grab the first part of the body that you can---automatically
ever been in a situation where somebody was going a bit nuts---I have--you grab the first part of the body that you can---automatically
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
until you know what brought on the reaction you can do nothing but speculate--perhaps the wrestler went "at" the ref?
And trust me I am not a fan of referees/umps
Nowhere in the article did it say that the wrestler went after the ref.
By all accounts that I've read the wrestler, after being separated when they were out of bounds, attempted to go back after the other wrestler.
That's when the ref grabbed the kid by the throat and went on his tirade.
As others have said, there are times when things get out of hand during a match, but you don't have to grab a kid by the throat to take control of the situation.
This ref has 30 years of experience. You would think he would know better.
Granted, it looks bad on behalf of the official but...
We don't know if he had placed his hand initially on the boys chest and it slipped upward while moving the kid back; don't know what took place in breaking up the wrestlers,etc. Who knows. All speculation. I do know HS wrestlers can get pretty intense (goes with the sport) and can get into a very aggressive zone/state of mind on the mat.
Do believe the ref has some ego issues but I'm not ready to throw him under the bus quite yet.
***Kinda of suprised the coach didn't go ballistic at the ref if everything was as bad as the video.
We don't know if he had placed his hand initially on the boys chest and it slipped upward while moving the kid back; don't know what took place in breaking up the wrestlers,etc. Who knows. All speculation. I do know HS wrestlers can get pretty intense (goes with the sport) and can get into a very aggressive zone/state of mind on the mat.
Do believe the ref has some ego issues but I'm not ready to throw him under the bus quite yet.
***Kinda of suprised the coach didn't go ballistic at the ref if everything was as bad as the video.
Maybe the kid has a reputation and the coach was thinking, "Not again!"quote:***Kinda of suprised the coach didn't go ballistic at the ref if everything was as bad as the video.
I'm with S. Abrams in that his hand may have started out on the chest but slipped up. Plus according to the article the guy getting choked was yelling at the ref. You still are not able to talk clearly if you are being choked. So while the hand probably shouldn't be there - there might be a legitimate reason for what happened.
Several years ago my school put on a professional development where a guy came in and taught us moves to restrain kids during fights using leverage and other ways. He said there are ways to restrain someone using a hold to the throat without choking them but he wasn't going to teach it since it's difficult and people automatically think you are choking someone. In this case it's automatic lose, lose situation for teachers.
I see cops use holds to the throat on TV to restrain individuals. This ref may have this type of training and knowledge. Let's get all the facts before we jump to convict this guy.
Several years ago my school put on a professional development where a guy came in and taught us moves to restrain kids during fights using leverage and other ways. He said there are ways to restrain someone using a hold to the throat without choking them but he wasn't going to teach it since it's difficult and people automatically think you are choking someone. In this case it's automatic lose, lose situation for teachers.
I see cops use holds to the throat on TV to restrain individuals. This ref may have this type of training and knowledge. Let's get all the facts before we jump to convict this guy.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
baseballdad
ever been in a situation where somebody was going a bit nuts---I have--you grab the first part of the body that you can---automatically
Yeah, and you usually wind up being the guy that gets clocked- by both of them!
TR,
Unfortumately, I was usually the guy whose throat was being grabbed...
Unfortumately, I was usually the guy whose throat was being grabbed...
The ref made 2 mistakes
1) A very aggressive physical move on another person. I dont see any attempt to defend - just pure aggression. (Some might argue he was defending his mat and his ego). And he wasnt attempting to stop an assault and save someone else. There wasnt anyone else in the picture.
I dont think he will get away with that one.
2) The ref left himself open for a solid right hand knockout blow. He got away with that one.
I think he should keep his hands off people's throats.
1) A very aggressive physical move on another person. I dont see any attempt to defend - just pure aggression. (Some might argue he was defending his mat and his ego). And he wasnt attempting to stop an assault and save someone else. There wasnt anyone else in the picture.
I dont think he will get away with that one.
2) The ref left himself open for a solid right hand knockout blow. He got away with that one.
I think he should keep his hands off people's throats.
Ok I finally got to see the video and I would like to say that seeing the whole incident would be nice. The ref should not have had his hand on the wrestlers throat but there is no way it's a choke hold of any type. Is it wrong - yes. Is it in danger of hurting the boy - no.
To me a true tell tale sign is how the boy reacts after the match is forfeited when his team gathers for a break and he just breezes on by. I understand he's ticked over what happened but he still has an obligation to the team. He completely blew them off and I think that shows some of his character. I'm not saying the coach rips him a new hole or suspends him anything but this is something that needs to be handled - and maybe it was.
Also, this newspaper is trying to create a story instead of reporting a story.
To me a true tell tale sign is how the boy reacts after the match is forfeited when his team gathers for a break and he just breezes on by. I understand he's ticked over what happened but he still has an obligation to the team. He completely blew them off and I think that shows some of his character. I'm not saying the coach rips him a new hole or suspends him anything but this is something that needs to be handled - and maybe it was.
Also, this newspaper is trying to create a story instead of reporting a story.
I have never seen a referee in any other sport ever physically restrain a player, let alone by the throat. Maybe try to break up a fight. Also I have never seen a referee shout with such contempt at a player. I think the ref is out of line grabbing a kid by the throat no matter what the sport or what the kid did. If he had open hands on his chest we would have never heard about it.
Any human being alive would have at least said "get your hands off my throat". If the kid was a hot head, nut case he would have done alot more than say what he said.
I think the ref should be disciplined severely. He has to be knocked down a few pegs IMO.
Any human being alive would have at least said "get your hands off my throat". If the kid was a hot head, nut case he would have done alot more than say what he said.
I think the ref should be disciplined severely. He has to be knocked down a few pegs IMO.
I coached high school wrestling and I have seen a referee throw a wrestler across the mat when he tried to continue to attack after the whistle. If you have never seen high school wrestling at the top level you have no clue. It is roid rage at it's finest. These guys know how to kill or mame in a heartbeat. I have always said that if I was choosing someone to have my back it would be a true wrestler. Our undefeated four time state champ could knock his opponent out in 1 second. I have seen him rip a guys shoulder out of socket after telling him to give and he didn't. He ripped 3 shoulders out his senior year. So, I can see how a referee may have to restrain him. That is why my son was made to stop wrestling. NOt worth the injuries.
As has been said, if my kid went psycho on someone I would hope that someone would stop him before he hurt someone. I don't care if you had to grab him by the throat.
After watching the video, the kid was definitely out of control, but maybe so was the referee. Don't know either without what caused the conflict.
Again, if you have never seen this sport live you can't imagine the physicality and mentality. It is 100 times worse than football.
As has been said, if my kid went psycho on someone I would hope that someone would stop him before he hurt someone. I don't care if you had to grab him by the throat.
After watching the video, the kid was definitely out of control, but maybe so was the referee. Don't know either without what caused the conflict.
Again, if you have never seen this sport live you can't imagine the physicality and mentality. It is 100 times worse than football.
Jeff
I totally agree---the young men who compete are special and unique individuals---many are also gung ho football players---on the mats it is killed or me killed--
I totally agree---the young men who compete are special and unique individuals---many are also gung ho football players---on the mats it is killed or me killed--
Our high school football coach made his players who didn't play basketball or run track, wrestle. It helped my son when he was younger stay in condition and develop physically. But when he got older, I could not see taking a chance of the injuries and they are brutal in wrestling. Most of us do not realize how physical wrestling is in high school.
Jeff, you said."After watching the video, the kid was definitely out of control, but maybe so was the referee."
After watching the video posted with this thread 3 times I couldn't disagree more. He was not out of control in this clip. The video shows the kid backing up saying "let go of my throat" without any rage at all. He stands there and listens to a guy scream in his face and says nothing after that. Then he calmly walks over to his bench and the ref comes over again to talk to him. The kid does nothing. I think the kid was totally in control during what is shown here. The only one out of control in this clip was the official IMO.
I admit I know nothing about wrestling but all this guy had to do was walk the kid away without his hand on his throat.
After watching the video posted with this thread 3 times I couldn't disagree more. He was not out of control in this clip. The video shows the kid backing up saying "let go of my throat" without any rage at all. He stands there and listens to a guy scream in his face and says nothing after that. Then he calmly walks over to his bench and the ref comes over again to talk to him. The kid does nothing. I think the kid was totally in control during what is shown here. The only one out of control in this clip was the official IMO.
I admit I know nothing about wrestling but all this guy had to do was walk the kid away without his hand on his throat.
The clip on this thread is not the entire story
quote:"No. You don't misbehave on my mat! Don't misbehave on my mat!"
I once was told by an umpire to get off "his field"
quote:Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I coached high school wrestling and I have seen a referee throw a wrestler across the mat when he tried to continue to attack after the whistle. If you have never seen high school wrestling at the top level you have no clue. It is roid rage at it's finest. These guys know how to kill or mame in a heartbeat. I have always said that if I was choosing someone to have my back it would be a true wrestler. Our undefeated four time state champ could knock his opponent out in 1 second. I have seen him rip a guys shoulder out of socket after telling him to give and he didn't. He ripped 3 shoulders out his senior year. So, I can see how a referee may have to restrain him. That is why my son was made to stop wrestling. NOt worth the injuries.
As has been said, if my kid went psycho on someone I would hope that someone would stop him before he hurt someone. I don't care if you had to grab him by the throat.
After watching the video, the kid was definitely out of control, but maybe so was the referee. Don't know either without what caused the conflict.
Again, if you have never seen this sport live you can't imagine the physicality and mentality. It is 100 times worse than football.
There is much truth in this post, and I can pretty much agree with every sentence (in fact I just had to glue a gash shut on my sons head last night - and that was just PRACTICE!
) I also think there is probably more to this than just what the video shows. I know the ref has to take control of the situation if it gets out of hand. It's easy to sit here, after the fact, not in the "heat of battle" and make logical thought out statements of what you "should do" or what the proper way of handling this situation should've been.
I do also know that the ref has an ego, and that it is difficult to watch this and not feel that he was possibly in the wrong.
So if there is more information available in the future, I will try to update this thread.
Someone claiming to be the 'other' wrestler has posted his side on youtube.
In my opinion, the newspaper writer is out to make this a bigger deal than it is. I guess he wants it to grow legs and wind up on CNN, ESPN...
In my opinion, the newspaper writer is out to make this a bigger deal than it is. I guess he wants it to grow legs and wind up on CNN, ESPN...