Outfield Fodder

Andre Dawson
Put-Outs 5153
Assists 157
Errors 92
Fielding Percentage .983

HC

great add

What really surpised me were the numbers for the three Dimaggio bros

Pattern seems to be, a little bit, that the better the thrower, the loser the PCT. Al Kaline numbers might be interesting.

Also, the number of assists for Mantle is surprising. Everybody knows Clemente had a great arm, but MM doesn't get near the credit.

Kaline
chances: 5205
assists: 170
errors: 73
Pct.: .986

quote:

Originally posted by OldVaman:
Pattern seems to be, a little bit, that the better the thrower, the lower the PCT. Al Kaline numbers might be interesting.

Also, the number of assists for Mantle is surprising. Everybody knows Clemente had a great arm, but MM doesn't get near the credit.

The more names we add the more interesting it gets

Dwight Evans
Put-Outs 4371
Assists 157
Errors 59
Fielding % .987

Very interesting list TR. Assists is a stat that were not discussed much yesterday. Now I think I see what it was about Clemente that stuck in my mind all these years.

If you look at the number of assists and compare that to the actual number of fielding chances - an assist-to-chance ratio if you will, it appears that Clemente had the highest ratio. I indeed remember him having a cannon for an arm and remember him throwing someone out at the plate, from the fence, on the fly, in a world series game. Also interesting, Larry Walker appears to be the next one on the list as far as the number of assists/chances go. They both obviously had very strong arms.

I was surprised that Clemente had one of the lower fielding percentages which is obviously something from my childhood I chose to ignore since I was enamored with Clemente's ability to throw people out.

How about the greatest ball player of all times

Hank Aaron

7865 Chances
429 Assists
144 Errors
.982 Field %

Art Shamsky
Metsie

Lifetime fielding % - .990

Forget about all the other data - LOL

Art's defensive philosophy was simple - if they hit it close to him - he caught it.

If it wasnt hit right at him - he let it drop, had a cup of coffee and a donut, and then picked it up on the bounce.

Forget about all these other guys - Shamsky was the MAN!

P.S. And he hit higher than Arod in his only postseason series.

Lets Go Mets!

Big WI

great add to the list

A couple of notes about these outfielders stats......

Totals chances is actually a misleading stat. Outfielders are at the great disadvantage stat wise, where fielding a simple base hit can lead to an error but not likely to an assist or putout. Outfielders have literally thousand of chances to field the ball were no positive stat or "chance" is recorded but they can certainly have an error. Almost all chances by an infielder leads to an assist, putout or error, not all but most.

Mantle was my childhood hero, but his stats are skewed. He spent his last 2 seasons at 1B where he had 2284 putouts 167 assists and 23 errors. this makes his outfielder stats much lower. 4438 putouts 117 assists 82 errors.

Aaron played 210 games at 1B and had 1791 putouts 117 assists and 20 errors
Aaron played 43 games at 2B and had 102 putouts 99 assists and 7 errors

Mays played 84 games at 1B and had 657 putouts 37 assists and 15 errors

Walker played 81 games at 1B and had 661 putouts 59 assists and 9 errors

Evans played 143 games at 1B and had 1079 putouts 71 assists and 19 errors

I didn't check everyone, but you get the idea.....

Cong,

You bring up some valuable information.

Actually I believe total chances per year or per game (at the same position) is a most important stat.

It shows you who is making the most plays. Often this is the player who will have more errors because he gets to more balls, thus more tough plays. The guy that covers the least ground should make the least errors, in theory.

Who is better?.... The shortstop who in 160 games makes 15 errors in 725 chances - .979 Fld%…. or the shortstop who in 160 games makes 8 errors in 600 chances - .986 Fld%?

The first SS made 7 more errors and had a worse fld%, but he made plays that resulted in 119 more outs while making those additional 7 errors.

Most of those outfielders mentioned had great arms, but number of assists (or chances at an assist) can be a result of having a poor arm (more runners taking the extra base).

Manny Ramirez had 17 assists to lead AL this year.
Cliff Floyd had 15 assists to lead the NL.

Vladimar Guerrero 8 assists (one of the best arms in baseball)
Jose Guillen 10 assists (one of the best arms in baseball, anyway he used to)
Gary Sheffield 5 assists (Strong arm)
Johnny Damon 5 assists (arm strength sure not his thing)

Luis Gonzalez (doesn’t he have a broken arm?) 7 assists
Juan Pierre, Kenny Lofton 7 each.
The strong arm of Kenny Lofton got his 7 in less than a 100 games.

Gonzalez, Pierre, Lofton – only 12 outfielders in the entire national league had more assists than these three.

Most amazing outfield assist stat for 2005 – rookie Jeff Francoeur had 13 assists in only 67 games! This put him #3 in the ML behind Ramirez 149 games and Floyd 150 games.

We know Francoeur has a strong arm. My guess is they will quit running on him so much and his assist numbers will go down in the future.

My vote for the greatest defensive outfielder ever – Willie Mays, stats can’t possibly show his real value in centerfield. Surely he had the most chances of any outfielder ever… didn’t he?

PG

I could not agree more

I had the good fortune to see him as a rookie in '51 a number of times and saw him thru is entire career

No player was ever better at his position and Willie loved playing the game and talking to kids

PG/TR and the rest of you really old guys - LOL

Name after name gets thrown out - and still - no Shamsky.

Can you all not find it in your hearts to throw Art a little love.

Let me add - Art opened up a nightclub in Rockland County,NY - it was called "The Marshmellow" - LOL. It was a pretty cool place.

Mays - Clemente - Walker and the rest of these guys never did that.

I only remember this play from the footage, but it is shown in Cleveland all the time. In 1954, the Indians won a then record 110 games that stood for decades until the Yankees surpassed it a few years back. In the first game of the World Series with the NY Giants, a mammoth blast was hit off the bat of Vic Wertz in right center field that a young Willie Mays tracked down over his head. He spun around and whizzed the ball back to the infield while falling down and losing his hat. It is considered one of the most famous WS catches of all time. They say the Indians never recovered from the shock of that play and were subsequently swept in four staight games. The Indians would not make it back to the World Series for 41 more years after that series. Similar to what they feel in Chicago, we truly know how to suffer sports-wise here in Cleveland.

Last time I saw Art was in NY when he was partners with Phil Linz--was booking their entertainment atbtheir clubs

Great guys--- I think Phil,is now selling Insurance--saw him a few years back--his son and mine graduated from HS at the same time and played against each other a number of times--Phil still carries his harmonica -- Art --he disappeared from sight

Cleveland,

Despite what you think you saw - you must remember - you dont really see what you see.

That was Art Shamsky in centerfield - not Willie.

The whole thing was a fraud - and Shamsky got screwed out of his rightful recognition.

Very unfair IMO.

TR - all the years i Have known you and you never told me that.

You booked acts at the Marshmellow?

God help you - LOL

quote:

Originally posted by OldVaman:
Pattern seems to be, a little bit, that the better the thrower, the loser the PCT. Al Kaline numbers might be interesting.

Also, the number of assists for Mantle is surprising. Everybody knows Clemente had a great arm, but MM doesn't get near the credit.

The stats on Mickey are incorrect. As an OF his stats were 4438 chances, 82 errors, 117 assists, 27 DP's and a .982 fielding pct. The previous stats included his last two full years when he played 1st base.I like to include the DP stats for the outfielders, as it shows how many guys got shot down trying to tag up on a fly ball.

doug

that can be added to each player

Having had the pleasure of watching some of the great outfielders play, it really isn't a fair comparison to todays players.

Back then, you didn't play the outfield unless you had an arm that could handle it.

Tagging up from third was not a given. Against the arms of yesteryear, if you tagged from third, you ran full out if you had the legs to challenge the arms.

I sat many times near the black area of the bleachers watching Mantle make that throw to the plate. I could see the muscles flex seemingly from his heel to the length of his arm.

Most runners didn't even try it against guys like Mantle , Kaline and the rest.

Dwight Evans was the closest a recent player has come to those types of arms.

Great duels between him and Mickey Rivers.

BOBO

when did Rivers have a arm near to Evans?

Rivers had the legs.

Great to have Rivers on second with a base hit to right.

Fantastic battles between the two of them.

WillieB

I thought we were comparing arms and defense?


How does Rivers running the bases fit into this equation

TR- I think he means the "duel" between Rivers trying to score from second and Evans trying to throw him out from right field.

Played with Mickey Rivers when he was with the Angels and he probably had the weakest arm of any centerfieder I played with or against-but he was probably the fastest runner.

It's truly refreshing to finally see an outfielder(Francoer) that knows how to make a throw. Not only does he have decent arm strength but he actually knows how to get rid of the ball with little wasted motion. Fielding the ball
and making the throw without "winding up" or double crow-hopping. It's amazing to me to see ML outfielders making throws from 200 feet away and actually not even reaching the pitcher's mound-pitiful! Besides, the throws are 10-20 feet offline as well.

Best arm strength IMO-Rocky Colavito-he used to come in from RF in the eighth and ninth innings to close out some games. Seen Mantle, Clemente, Evans, Parker, Guerrero-none could touch Rocky. And I agree with those who say Willie Mays was the best CF of all time.

TR,

How does booking acts at the Marshmellow fit into the equation?

Nice to know that Phil Linz still carries his harmonica though.

Worst MLB outfield arms? All good players with not so good arms.

Johnny Damon - 1998 he had 10 assists
Mickey Rivers - 1980 he had 19 assists
Johnson, was it Lance? - 1991 and 92 he had 11 assists

Any others?

I Believe Art Shamskey has more World Series rings than Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Ted Williams and Ernie Banks... combined!

PG

you have to ask ITS--he mentioned it

Jerry,

Finally - I thank you and Art thanks you.



P.S. It was my pleasure meeting you - and your lovely wife down in Ft Myers. My son and I had a great time.

Where might Ichiro fit into the equation?

To WillieBobo or anyone ...

quote:

Tagging up from third was not a given. Against the arms of yesteryear, if you tagged from third, you ran full out if you had the legs to challenge the arms.

Any ideas why the difference between the arms from the past and the present players? Were the OFers in the past perhaps just better all around athletes and now looked to more for their offense?

Just curious ...

Something else to remember about Mays. For most of his career he played in the windy, foggy, cold, windy, breezy, howling Candlestick.Remeber Stu Miller being blown off the rubber in the All Star game. The winds at the Stick made a lot of players look incompetent in trying to catch fly balls and Mays made it look effortless.