Over Recruiting

quote:

Why do these usually turn into an "all coaches are saints, most parents are bad", disucssion?

CPLZ,
Maybe that should be a topic in itself. This topic was titled "Over Recruiting". I don't know of many parents that would be accused of over recruiting.

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that all coaches are saints. I don't recall reading many posts that claim all parents are bad. Truth is, and we all know, there are both good and bad coaches and parents. I just have a hard time figuring out which are which.

Without knowing "all" the facts I don't think it is right to announce the "bad" coaches or parents on a public forum. So when someone does, I think it's important that someone else give another possible opinion on the subject.

In fact I believe you, above all, would agree with that.

PG,
I heard several hyothesis in this discussion, including yours, on how the parents misread, misheard, and selectivly filtered information the coaches give out as the cause for a perception of over recruiting. It's plausible and very likely happens, especially when we factor in the emotional quotient of parents and recruits. It is also entirely one sided characterizing coaches in one light and parents in another. It is without the balance you bring up now.

As to "all" the facts, that we can never know about anything unless we were there. We convict people daily in the public court system with "enough" facts. I don't need to know everything about Tom Osborne to determine he was a turd of a person for protecting a wife beater so he could win more football games. I know enough that I am comfortable stating my opinion on a public message board.

CPLZ,
If you mean this... It was just an example... giving something additional for people to think about other than dishonesty in recruiting.

Note: Asked for parents to comment if they had been lied to by college recruiters. So far no one has replied to that.

quote:

There are many people here who have had kids go to college. Without naming names, I’d like to know how many were lied to by the college coach during the recruiting process. It would also be interesting to know exactly what he lied about. I think sometimes the things thought to be lies are more often than not, poor listening. Selective Hearing!

Stuff like this….

Player – Coach, I’m very interested in attending your school.

Coach – That’s great, but we have no money left this year.

Player – If I walk on, will there be some money available next year?

Coach – Yes, I will have money next year and if you show us you can be an important contributor to our program, I will have some money available.

Player – That sounds great, I’m coming.

Then later, the player is cut without any scholarship discussions. The player and his parents are upset and thinking the coach misled them.

Did the coach mislead them? Or was it a case of selective hearing?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

Note: Asked for parents to comment if they had been lied to by college recruiters. So far no one has replied to that.

I wouldn't read too much into that. It's a little like asking for volunteers for a s ex survey, people might be a bit leery about stepping up. Parents with players currently in school, may view their testimony as possibly harmful to their sons current situation and withhold. There's many more reasons to be silent than not.

Lied to by a recruiter? Like "we consider you our number one priority"? I've heard some of that, and viewed it with a great deal of skepticism.

The purpose of discussions about over recruiting should be to inform. It is totally understandable that many programs with recruit more players than they can roster. The discussion makes parents aware that it happens and it doesn't mean the coach is a bad coach.
Over recruiting is a factor that you should be aware of especially with the NCAA rules in D1 . We never had a coach lie to us but none came forward and said we could have several more players show up than we can roster. To us it was a shock at first and then it actually became a challenge. We had the security of a large scholarship and there was no sit rule at the time.
Many parents and players head off not knowing that this happens and rightfully assume their son is going to play BB at that college. Most times it works out and sometimes it doesn't. That is part of BB. We knew going in we had to compete to get playing time. We also understood that JRs and SRs would get the bulk of the action. We didn't ask nor did we expect a guaranteed roster spot. We did expect to compete.
I really think the only thing wrong with over recruiting is the new rules and perhaps the lack of disclosure on what often happens with recruiting.

CPLZ you can rest assured that I say what I think and my son is a free agent and not worried about repercussions.

quote:

We had the security of a large scholarship

Could that security blanket not be taken at years end?

As for over recruiting, I don't think we would be having these discussions if not for the new "sit" rule.

We were offered a walk on situation when my son's first choice had no money left. Why would I pay for a year of college out of my pocket with the possibility of scholarship money for his Soph year ? That wasn't going to happen. I have always thought that there were many colleges he would be happy at and he would get a scholarship from. As I have said for us scholarship = commitment.

This may be a silly question, but how can a college afford to not over recruit at least a little bit? Don't they lose some kids to grades, or kids quitting, or other things that are out of their control? If they bring in just 35 in the fall, what do they do if they lose 5 kids before the sesaon starts?

Start with 35, and lose 5? That's still 5 players more than can play in away games.

The roster limit of 35 was chosen to be large enough so that teams can handle the loss of several players without going below the 25 man travel limit.

Blprkfrnks, when Fresno State won the CWS last year, it had a roster size of only 27. I believe they lost several players that year for various reasons. Obviously, a team can do just fine with those numbers.

Regarding lies/deception, here are excerpts from an actual email exchange we had with a D1 coach who was recruiting our son:

Parent's question: "Is there any possibility that you would bring on more than the 8 walk-ons allowed by the new NCAA regulations, meaning that some would have to be cut?"

Coach's answer: "We are not planning on beginning the fall semester with more than 35 players on our roster."

Coach's answer in a subsequent email: "If we begin our first practice in the fall of 08 today we would have 33 players on our roster. Of those 33 I am not sure which players might remove themselves because of poor academic performance or leave our program to seek out an opportunity for more playing time at another school. This being said, I dont think I can tell you at this point whether we will have 33, 35 or 37 players on our opening day in the fall semester....My summation would be at 10 years in the division 1 level I have never been involved in a program where a kid was removed from the roster because of his athletic abilities."

Truth: 43 arrived on campus this past fall. As of today, there are 38 players listed on that school's roster.

Name the name there Infield. Actually, I know that it is bad form, but my son is being recruited by a couple of schools in your area, and a heads up might do us a world of good!

Question: the 25 player limit on the travel roster mentioned above...does that apply to all levels (D1, D2, D3) or just D1 or what? Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

Note: Asked for parents to comment if they had been lied to by college recruiters. So far no one has replied to that.

I wouldn't read too much into that. It's a little like asking for volunteers for a s ex survey, people might be a bit leery about stepping up. Parents with players currently in school, may view their testimony as possibly harmful to their sons current situation and withhold. There's many more reasons to be silent than not.

Lied to be a recruiter? Like "we consider you our number one priority"? I've heard some of that, and viewed it with a great deal of skepticism.

O.K...I'll bite...looking back, I always tempered any recruiting conversation with a comment made to me by a friend of mine early in the recruiting process..."Always remember, there's recruiting and then there's offers". I kind of knew the game going in, but my wife took it pretty hard.

Not sure if there was real intent to deceive but,a nice guy, well-respected recruiter in a top conference from the south "lied" to us on at least two separate occasions...once, three days before official visit when he told us that the minimum baseball money (25%) would be available if the academic money did not come through (Head coach acted totally surprised at that statement on the official visit...stated, in late Sept, mind you, "I'm still looking for my Friday mound guy").

After expressing the disappointment to the recruiter about this turn of events, he indicated that he would heavily pursue his first statement, and contact our son immediately himself if this would not be the case...conveniently made it through fall season before finally answering in the negative, after being pursued for answers by my son.

It happens...and I'm not so sure it doesn't happen regularly, since this was from a "top-notch" assistant.

quote:

Like "we consider you our number one priority"?

This was used on my son. Told this directly by head coach in face to face meeting on his campus. I was there. Son ended up attending this school. Learned later that this was (at a minimum) a misleading statement, if not out & out false.

In the end, all things worked out for the good - regardless of the coach.

Casey the 25 man travel roster is for D1. Also most coaches will rotate a few players in so it is not always the same 25. Not 100% sure about the other divisions.

Thanks Bobble.

quote:

Originally posted by casey75:
Question: the 25 player limit on the travel roster mentioned above...does that apply to all levels (D1, D2, D3) or just D1 or what? Thanks.

NCAA D1 rules only limits rosters to 25 players for post season play. There is no mention of a 25 player limit in the D1, D2, or D3 Manuals. I believe that during the regular season, conferences rules set the limit. Here is the PAC 10 rule:

"e. Squad and Bench Limits.
For games that do not involve traditional rivals, each team shall designate 25 student-athletes who may compete in a given Conference series. The visiting team's travel squad shall consist of these 25 student-athletes, and, at the visiting institution's discretion, one additional student-athlete who may serve only as a bullpen catcher. These 26 student-athletes shall be included in the limit of 35 individuals who may be in the visiting team dugout or other visiting team area during a game. The home team may have an unlimited number of student-athletes and other team personnel in the home team dugout or other home team area during a game, but only the 25 student-athletes designated to compete may participate in the series. (For games that involve traditional rivals, there shall be no student-athlete squad limit for either team. Each team may have an unlimited number of student-athletes and other team personnel in its dugout or other team area during a game."

So for PAC 10 conference games, both teams can designate only 25 players who are eligible to play in the games, excepting traditional rivals' series. I infer that each team has one traditional rival.

I suppose that for all divisions, the limits are primarily set by individual conferences, at least for regular season play.

3FG,
Good stuff! It forced me to go look at my sons conference rules, and his mimick very closely the PAC 10. Although they dress 35 at home games, only 25 are rostered...I'll bet that they don't even know that.

Thanks!

I believe that's the same in our conference. 25 players for road trips, 35 dressed but 25 rostered for home games. Non conference we take all and I believe all are eligible to play.

Thanks to all of you for the additional info on roster limits.

Sometimes we compare apples and oranges.

If any pareent has read this board they know that playing time must be earned. They also know that the competition for roster spots and playing time at the collegiate level is extremely challenging.
But, we all hope that when our student arrives for fall practice he doesn't see four other frosh two sophs and the senior starter at his infield position. It is not that we fear the competition for our children but just that we know the vagaries of any "try out" system. This is espectially true if a student has chosen one school over others which for all intents and purposes could have provided an equal collegiate experience.

Casey- My son's DIII school has 32 on the roster and coach has said he will travel with between 25 and 27. ( I do believe economics will have an impact here)

PG- I spoke with 3 coachess and mys on spoke with at least 5. We were never told a lie or mis-led.