Over recuiting

.....or, are verbal offers relatively new in football with the NCAA date change? Not sure how that has worked in the past?

I was always awed by the highly recruited football player, with 20-30-40 written offers/packages set before him, for him to select and choose by a certain date, and the scholarship % offer the same for each D1.

Quite different from baseball!

This isn't over recruiting. He clearly admits with some of these offers he is trying to see what sticks and see if people have interest. Also, many verbal offers in football come with a condition such as we are going to take 2 tailbacks. Once they get two to commit, the other offers to talbacks would be taken off the table.

They have redefined verbal to mean "We may care."

From the article:

"While 241 might seem like a high number, Mike Farrell, national recruiting analyst from Rivals.com, said it's not uncommon because verbal offers aren't worth much."

You guys wouldn't believe how many players I saw in college get told they had a roster spot on the team, only to show up and have to tryout on day 1.

These same players committed to the college...the school...etc just because they were told they could play ball there. Then they find out they wont be playing ball. Sad story.

quote:

Originally posted by Backwardsk34:
You guys wouldn't believe how many players I saw in college get told they had a roster spot on the team, only to show up and have to tryout on day 1.

These same players committed to the college...the school...etc just because they were told they could play ball there. Then they find out they wont be playing ball. Sad story.

While I admit that would be horrible, but arent there any signs that this could happen in the recruitment? Wouldnt they be offered any baseball money? We have talked to our son, and if no money is offered, then it pretty much tells us where you stand in their plans and it is probably best to look elsewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark B:
This isn't over recruiting. He clearly admits with some of these offers he is trying to see what sticks and see if people have interest. Also, many verbal offers in football come with a condition such as we are going to take 2 tailbacks. Once they get two to commit, the other offers to talbacks would be taken off the table.

LOL... Lets see...

- throw out hundreds of offers to see "what sticks"
- take offer off table if player(s) accept before you

What about that isn't over recruiting to you

Over recruiting to me is signing more players than available scholarships. This isn't the case yet. He has offered 230 in hopes of signing a class of 25 I'm sure.

To form a good team, I think a coach almost has to offer many verbals with the caveat that potential recruits understand that it is kind of a first come first serve process. If a coach only offered verbals to fifteen or twenty really good players who have multiple choices and then only got three or four to actually come to the school, the coach would never build a good team. I think it is on the players to realize that the coach has offered, but its only if the recruit makes a reasonably quick decision as he is just one on the teams selection board. If this is understood from the beginning then there is no big deal. Now if the coach allows sixy or seventy guys to show up in the Fall or he signs guys and two or three weeks before school starts, he tells them to find a Juco to attend, then I would agree that this is overrecruiting.

quote:

Originally posted by Mizzoubaseball:
While I admit that would be horrible, but arent there any signs that this could happen in the recruitment? Wouldnt they be offered any baseball money? We have talked to our son, and if no money is offered, then it pretty much tells us where you stand in their plans and it is probably best to look elsewhere.

Not every player you see playing baseball in college is being paid to be there. Some players get offered scholarships yes, but others are not receiving any money to play. Every team has a certain amount of money to provide scholarships, and most baseball teams carry a roster around 30-35. That being said NO team has 30-35 scholarships, therefore there is a greater percentage of players not receiving money.

I myself was not receiving any athletic money during my freshman and sophomore years. After having a good sophomore year I started to look at changing schools to get a scholarship, and my current coach decided he'd give me one to keep me there. This happens more than you think.

quote:

Originally posted by jazzmik:
Sign of the times...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/...-more-162832015.html


I've read here a few times that it would look bad for a school/coach to rescind a verbal offer. Doesn't seem that way.

A lot of verbal offers is not over recruiting. Too many verbal acceptances is over recruiting.

quote:

Originally posted by Mizzoubaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by Backwardsk34:
You guys wouldn't believe how many players I saw in college get told they had a roster spot on the team, only to show up and have to tryout on day 1.

These same players committed to the college...the school...etc just because they were told they could play ball there. Then they find out they wont be playing ball. Sad story.

While I admit that would be horrible, but arent there any signs that this could happen in the recruitment? Wouldnt they be offered any baseball money? We have talked to our son, and if no money is offered, then it pretty much tells us where you stand in their plans and it is probably best to look elsewhere.

What if this overrecruitment occurs in D3, where there's NO athletic scholarship money? I've heard many tales of D3 players who were verbally offered spots showing up to cattle call tryouts in the fall, with most being cut.

But we've been assured verbally that this will not happen when our son heads off to Western New England this fall. And we're taking the coach on his word.

I know of several D3's who recruit players only to tell them they're cut in the fall after a tryout they weren't expecting. One rosters about fifty and dresses twenty-five. A friend's son was told he could try to walk on. When he got here he was told, "Sorry we have a full roster."

I love this site because of the valuable information to players and parents when it comes to recruiting. I also read quite a bit it seems about being cautious of over recruiting followed by horror stories like RJM just let us know about.

My question is why don't posters feel comfortable letting readers know which schools those are by name? For a site that has so much resource info on recruiting wouldn't that be just as important to know. In RJM's case it might be difficult because it wasn't his experience so I understand the hesitancy to name names, but for those who have experienced it first hand I wish you would.

shortnquick, I totally agree. Over the last several years I have learned so much from this site.

One place I have found interesting regarding the numbers of recruits (I won't use the term over recruiting here) is on the Perfect Game home page:

http://www.perfectgame.org/

Page down to the bottom on the left hand side and it will list maybe 10 top colleges and the number of high school recruits for this year. Now check the current roster of some of those schools that have a high number of recruits to see how many seniors will be graduating and the number of juniors that they may loose to the draft. Do the numbers add up? Way over 35? Of course, some of those high school recruits may also be in the June draft and therefore the coaches may need to cover their bases (pun intended), but nevertheless, it is another source of information.

Several schools have been discussed on the boards about over recruiting, but it does seem to be a hush hush topic.

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:
I love this site because of the valuable information to players and parents when it comes to recruiting. I also read quite a bit it seems about being cautious of over recruiting followed by horror stories like RJM just let us know about.

My question is why don't posters feel comfortable letting readers know which schools those are by name? For a site that has so much resource info on recruiting wouldn't that be just as important to know. In RJM's case it might be difficult because it wasn't his experience so I understand the hesitancy to name names, but for those who have experienced it first hand I wish you would.

Even if it was first hand with my son I would only discuss it via a PM. There are certain discussions that require a little disgression. The information can still get passed. Sometimes there's more to the story than anyone really knows. Sometimes thirty-four kids on the roster have a positive experience and one has a negative experience. One bad experience doesn't make for a bad program. Negative information should only be passed on privately as buyer beware not cast in stone.

If a NLI expires after 14 days, does anyone really think a verbal offer, from seventh grade, would last indefinitely?

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
If a NLI expires after 14 days, does anyone really think a verbal offer, from seventh grade, would last indefinitely?

In 7th grade I told my son if he didn't start bringing in the trash can on pickup day he's grounded. That verbal lasted all through high school.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
I know of several D3's who recruit players only to tell them they're cut in the fall after a tryout they weren't expecting. One rosters about fifty and dresses twenty-five. A friend's son was told he could try to walk on. When he got here he was told, "Sorry we have a full roster."

Sure wish that would have happened to our son, at least he would not have lost a year of eligibility not playing but a few games.

Of course most on this site would blame the player, coaches never make mistakes.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:
I love this site because of the valuable information to players and parents when it comes to recruiting. I also read quite a bit it seems about being cautious of over recruiting followed by horror stories like RJM just let us know about.

My question is why don't posters feel comfortable letting readers know which schools those are by name? For a site that has so much resource info on recruiting wouldn't that be just as important to know. In RJM's case it might be difficult because it wasn't his experience so I understand the hesitancy to name names, but for those who have experienced it first hand I wish you would.

Even if it was first hand with my son I would only discuss it via a PM. There are certain discussions that require a little disgression. The information can still get passed. Sometimes there's more to the story than anyone really knows. Sometimes thirty-four kids on the roster have a positive experience and one has a negative experience. One bad experience doesn't make for a bad program. Negative information should only be passed on privately as buyer beware not cast in stone.

I would 100% agree on most issues but not over recruiting. Not when a player is told he has a roster spot only to show up and get cut. That is really not an opinion on anything but over recruiting. I agree with not bashing or criticizing a coach on the site by name or school if it’s a playing issue or some of the other issues we see on the board. But I personally would have no problem naming a school or coach who promised a roster spot and then cut the player his freshman year. I would at least use the schools name on the board as a caution to other recruits. It’s not bashing it’s just a fact on how the school runs their program.

I'm with you Shortnquik,
If you treat people right, you never have to be afraid of what will be said about you but if you treat people poorly, you shouldn't be surprised to hear that either!

quote:

Originally posted by Texas1836:
They have redefined verbal to mean "We may care."

From the article:

"While 241 might seem like a high number, Mike Farrell, national recruiting analyst from Rivals.com, said it's not uncommon because verbal offers aren't worth much."

Wow. How times have changed. Shortly after finding this site a little over 4 years ago, I posted in a thread: "Verbal offers aren't worth the paper they're not written on." This was based on personal family experience.

Lord, how this site erupted to tell me how wrong I was. Interesting to see how things are 4 years later.

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:
I love this site because of the valuable information to players and parents when it comes to recruiting. I also read quite a bit it seems about being cautious of over recruiting followed by horror stories like RJM just let us know about.

My question is why don't posters feel comfortable letting readers know which schools those are by name? For a site that has so much resource info on recruiting wouldn't that be just as important to know. In RJM's case it might be difficult because it wasn't his experience so I understand the hesitancy to name names, but for those who have experienced it first hand I wish you would.

Honestly, what's the point? This has occurred or is occurring almost everywhere, so why include names? It's just something you need to be aware of.

quote:

Originally posted by Backwardsk34:

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:
I love this site because of the valuable information to players and parents when it comes to recruiting. I also read quite a bit it seems about being cautious of over recruiting followed by horror stories like RJM just let us know about.

My question is why don't posters feel comfortable letting readers know which schools those are by name? For a site that has so much resource info on recruiting wouldn't that be just as important to know. In RJM's case it might be difficult because it wasn't his experience so I understand the hesitancy to name names, but for those who have experienced it first hand I wish you would.

Honestly, what's the point? This has occurred or is occurring almost everywhere, so why include names? It's just something you need to be aware of.

You are wrong about it occurring every where. My son is playing college baseball and it did not happen to him or any of the recruits at his school. I work with many college coaches and players and I have not run into that situation although I know that it happens.

The point is, if a college is routinely over recruiting, having a player show up in fall and then cut them, I think that would be information worth sharing. To say it happens every where is just wrong. Have it happen to your son and then lets see if you see the point.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Wow. How times have changed. Shortly after finding this site a little over 4 years ago, I posted in a thread: "Verbal offers aren't worth the paper they're not written on." This was based on personal family experience.

Lord, how this site erupted to tell me how wrong I was. Interesting to see how things are 4 years later.

Your post was in a thread entitled USC Verbals 7th Grader and written a little over 2 years ago. I doubt anyone's opinion has changed since then.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
I doubt anyone's opinion has changed since then.

[chuckle] Okay. I guess I missed all the posts defending the sanctity of verbal offers hidden amongst the posts relating them to possible over recruiting. My error.

I look at DIII or other non-scholarship schools completely different than scholarship schools. Sure all colleges recruit, and the top DIIIs take it very seriously, but for the most part when over recruiting is mentioned, I think it refers to DI. Some JC’s and small colleges are notorious for recruiting more players than they have roster spots, it’s just not as news worthy. My comments below relate to scholarship colleges and especially DI colleges.

In most cases, not all, recruits are aware of their situation before committing. In some cases where it appears over recruiting is taking place, it is because of the state grants that students take advantage of in certain areas. No guaranteed roster spots, but guaranteed money for college and a "chance" to play at a very high level. If they don't make the roster, they either stay at the college on the grant or transfer somewhere else (Often a JC) to play baseball.

There are high priority recruits and there are low priority recruits. It seems to me that someone should be able to figure out where they stand with very little research. Also, I've never figured out why someone would want to be on a roster if they weren't one of the top 35 players. College coaches want the best players on their roster. Players, especially those that are low priority, need to understand that things change. Players change from one year to the next. Some get better, some are complacent, some get worse. When you’re a freshman in college, what you did as a HS senior no longer counts. All that counts is how good are you now and how much can you help the college program. There are no guarantees; the player is responsible for what happens. There is never a guarantee, even if one has been mentioned, because things change.

If baseball is important, you shouldn't be concerned with just being on a 35 man roster, you should be looking at schools where you will be playing in the games. As a coach, I wouldn’t want someone whose goal was to just be on the roster. If baseball is important find the college and the level where you have a good chance to be in the lineup as soon as possible. If baseball is not that important to you, you shouldn’t be upset about over recruiting. So when you sign that LOI, it’s all up to you, all guarantees are out the window accept the guarantee you make to yourself that you will give it everything you got.

Note: It is not the same in all parts of the country. For example, the Big 10 conference, for one, does not allow their schools to sign more to LOIs than that schools allotment. It's just another area, along with weather, that makes it tougher for the Big 10 to compete consistently on a national level in baseball.

BTW, nothing above should be considered in such a way that actual lying to a potential recruit is OK. I just think that sometimes people aren’t listening close enough when the recruiter is talking. I think people are hearing words like “promise” and “guarantee” when the recruiters aren’t exactly saying that.

There's a recruiting situation I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned (unless I missed it). A D1 baseball coach recruits based on the number of graduating seniors, players expected to transfer and expected number of juniors to to be drafted and signed. If a couple of juniors who were expected to sign return the coach now has an over recruiting issue.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
There's a recruiting situation I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned (unless I missed it). A D1 baseball coach recruits based on the number of graduating seniors, players expected to transfer and expected number of juniors to to be drafted and signed. If a couple of juniors who were expected to sign return the coach now has an over recruiting issue.

Then as a father of one who was "lied to" if the school does end up with more than needed they can do the recruit a favor by offering to cut, then the recruit doesn't lose a 1/4 of his eligibility sitting on the bench.

Great post PG and so true. College coaches can not sign just the amount they know they will lose. What I mean by that are Sr's. There are Jr's and Soph's they can lose to the draft. There are guys they think they will lose to the draft. There are guys that they know will not be back. Grades, Discipline issues, performance issues, guys who are simply not happy with their situation, guys the coaches are not happy with for a number of reasons. And many more situations. In reality they really don't know untill the draft in June who will def get drafted and who will not. Who will sign and who will not. Who was expected to have a good year and get drafted and then didnt have a good year. Guys that were not on the draft radar but had a great year and now are in the mix. And now were not even talking about the High School players they have signed that may go in the draft.

If they only signed the number of guys they knew for a fact they had room for they would end up in a pickle when fall came around. It is in their best interest to sign more and hope it works out. And then sort it all out in the fall. Its in the players best interest to read PG's post. Make sure your one of those guys that is highly valued by the staff and can see a role before you show up. Or roll the dice and hope it works out. Of coure no matter what be ready to work your butt off and make it happen.

The parents and player have the players best interest at heart and that is what they are concerned with. The coach has an entire programs best interest at heart and it is what he has to be concerned with. Do your homework and be realistic going in. If there are 35 guys on the roster, 3 Sr's and 2 guys that will probably be drafted and they have signed 15 guys do the math. It is in the best interest of the college program to have some leeway when sorting it all out in the fall. It is in your son's best interest to understand what PG posted. And in the parents best interest as well.

quote:

Make sure your one of those guys that is highly valued by the staff and can see a role before you show up. Or roll the dice and hope it works out

One weekend I was attended the game of a ranked team. I struck up a conversation with the dad of one of the starters. I asked what other teams were interested when he was being recruited. He mentioned a top ranked team from their state. Then he added, "He's here because while the other program showed interest, this team showed love."

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Make sure your one of those guys that is highly valued by the staff and can see a role before you show up. Or roll the dice and hope it works out

One weekend I was attended the game of a ranked team. I struck up a conversation with the dad of one of the starters. I asked what other teams were interested when he was being recruited. He mentioned a top ranked team from their state. Then he added, "He's here because while the other program showed interest, this team showed love."

How do you distinguish the difference between interest and love?
I'm only asking because hopfully in 4 years I will be worrying about the recruiting process with my son.

quote:

Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Make sure your one of those guys that is highly valued by the staff and can see a role before you show up. Or roll the dice and hope it works out

One weekend I was attended the game of a ranked team. I struck up a conversation with the dad of one of the starters. I asked what other teams were interested when he was being recruited. He mentioned a top ranked team from their state. Then he added, "He's here because while the other program showed interest, this team showed love."

How do you distinguish the difference between interest and love?
I'm only asking because hopfully in 4 years I will be worrying about the recruiting process with my son.

You can get a feel for whether you're on the A list or the B list. In the case of the player I posted about he was more heavily pursued by one school.

quote:

Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
How do you distinguish the difference between interest and love?
I'm only asking because hopfully in 4 years I will be worrying about the recruiting process with my son.

You will know. It may not happen right away but you will know. Sometimes you will get confused as the process begins, then you have to use the information and your resources to figure out where the player stands.

I always think if one has to work hard at really figuring it out, then it might not be the best fit for the player to begin with.

As an example son's dream school showed very little interest. The other guys had been calling for awhile, each and every week, one coach was in contact with him for a whole year. The dream school finally got around to calling for an official visit, by that time son wasn't interested. He probably was on their B or C list.

PG and Coach May's posts laid it out pretty well.

My advice to add is if a coach tells you that you have a definite role even before you show up, he may not be honest (unless your son is one of the top studs in his class even then he has to win the starting job). I remember in son's recruitment to Clemson, the coach definitively told him that he could be an impact player early on, but he had to prove himself for that role. He never said you got the job, no one ever said that.

I also tend to believe that people often hear what they want to.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

I also tend to believe that people often hear what they want to.

You are 100% correct on this. I have spoken to players and their parents after a visit with a college coach and then spoken to the coach after the same visit and you would never think it was the same meeting.

I know of a major D1 that is known to do it, and is definitely going to be doing it again this year. PM me if u want to know the name.

PG nailed it (as usual)!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Every coach in the country wants to win. So come game day he will fill out his lineup card with the 9 guys he feels give him the best chance. He is not filling out the card based on scholarship dollars. Thanks goodness because if that was the case I would have never seen the field! Best thing you can do is show up in the best shape of your life and be ready to compete!

To comment on the original topic of "over recruiting" I'd ask you to turn the tables a little...

How many schools did you and your son look at? And I mean at the very beginning of the process? How many emails did you send out saying how much you like XYZ Univ, etc.? Was it 5, 10, 20, 50? That is essentially the same thing coaches are doing with their verbals. The numbers get big quick because football rosters are huge. But 10 verbals for 1 sign is not that surprising. Heck, I'd call that a pretty good close rate!

In addition to all of the wonderful life lessons that college athletics teaches kids is that the second you sign, coaches are recruiting your replacement! Its your job to make sure you stay ahead of the other kids.

Sort of reminds me of, you know, real life!

Rich
www.playinschool.com