Over The Top

Obviously, the coaches are not thinking. Unfortunately, it's all about "winning for the moment" for some of these guys, and most parents aren't educated to know how much is too much for little Johnny. While most leagues mandate number of outs/innings for tournament play, the workload can still be way too much, especially for those throwing curve balls.

Hopefully, forums like this will get the word out to parents/coaches for hard/strict pitch count. I've seen it way too many times... little Johnny is the pitching stud at a young age, only to have caused irreparable harm to their arm by the time they reach high school and have nothing left.

At the level my kid plays, 11U, that would be 10 innings of pitching over two days. Most of our area tournaments allow that. Not saying its right, just saying its allowed. None of our tournaments count pitches, just innings over a given number of days.

I try to observe what the multi-year, multi-level reputable programs in my area exercise for their pitchers. (Atlanta, Knoxville, Nashville) Many of those programs in those large cities have the luxury of having as many as 8 pitchers on a team. So, they don't need to pitch them as many innings.

But, all those programs use the curve ball. They did it at 10U and they are doing this year at 11U. The programs I'm referencing are ranked in travelselectball.com. They are having great success throwing the curve ball. Clearly, the curve ball can win games at the youth level.

Makes me wonder if light use of the curve ball at the youth level is OK as long as the pitcher is only throwing for a few innings. But, I'm not willing to take the chance. I know that if the coach knew my son had a curve in his arsenal, he would use it and I wouldn't have much control over how much he used it. So, I'm not teaching it to my son until he can shave...

Some of the AMSI research has shown that the curveball is not as bad as once thought. Biomechanical studies have actually shown that the curveball puts less stress on the arm then the fastball. Here is a quote from one of the AMSI people regarding this issue. It is taken from a post on the AMSI message board:

"I'm not sure what rules are or aren't in place.

I do know that the latest research points to amount of pitching as much more important that types of pitches for who gets hurt and who doesn't. Dr. Andrews and I talked about it at the 2007 Little League International Congress. Here is our presentation:
www.littleleague.org/pitchcount/pitchpresentation.htm

We have a biomechanics study about youth curveballs coming out in an upcoming issue of The American Journal of Sports Medicine. Keep an eye out for that one."

Snoop around on the site a little and you will find some interesting information. Just food for thought.

With some coaches the desire to win unfortunately trumps everything else, including the long-term health of their pitchers.

In our area, tournament pitching is regulated by innings. If a pitcher throws more than 3 innings in a day, he has to have 36 hours of rest. Over the course of a tournament, pitchers can throw a maximum of 14 innings. Regular season games are Saturday double-headers and pitchers are limited to 7 innings a week. However, there are no pitch-count rules, and we have had coaches who will allow outrageous pitch counts.

One of 27's classmates, who plays on a different team, threw 160 pitches in a 7 inning, regular season game (they won the game). This is after elbow and shoulder injuries from 2 seasons ago had side-lined his pitching completely (after the same coach had thrown him 130+ and 150+ in successive weekends). The coach was upset that the next week he walked 11 straight batters. His rationale? The kid had had a week off to rest and recuperate, he should have been ready to go again.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
Some of the AMSI research has shown that the curveball is not as bad as once thought.

Biomechanical studies have actually shown that the curveball puts less stress on the arm then the fastball.

The danger is not throwing the curve. It's throwing a curve improperly. There are two many kids teaching themselves how to throw a curve. If it's effective the coach lets him throw it. Too many youth coaches don't understand a pitcher can be effective with bad mechanics that will harm them in the long run.

RJM, I completely agree with that. Mechanics must be sound. I think you can injure yourself with bad fastball mechanics just as much as bad curveball mechanics. I also think that when a pitcher tires is more important than necessarily what his pitch count is. The more a pitcher tires, the more his mechanics suffer, and the more likely injury is to occur. Coaches and players need to be very aware of what is going on and be able to make the call when a kid is done. Rest between starts is the next most important thing. Pitch counts are a good guideline, but every pitcher is an individual. Some tire before the limit, some can go beyond. Fatigue is the factor. The problem is that some coaches will throw a kid beyond that limit for the sake of winning, and that is not right.

I coach for a 14u travel team and I can think of at least 3 semi-final or final games in tournaments we have lost this year because we took our #1 guy out when he tired (even though he was still effective) and wound up losing the game. That's just the way it's got to be.

This kid is a very good pitcher and can throw longer than most. Has been throwing a breaking ball/slider for several years and has never had an arm problem. I think a big reason for that is that he is closely monitored, not allowed to go beyond his limit and gets plenty of rest between outings.

Most of the studies I have read, point to overuse of a pitcher, rather than the type of pitch he throws or the technique that they use. And pitching that many innings in 2 days for a 13 year old, could be considered overuse by some.

its dumb coaches who never had success playing so they live through the kids on their team. Curveballs according to Dick Mills and Tom House are bad on the arm also. If you can locate a Fastball and Change you will get guys out until College. I hit curveballs i never hit change ups. I am a far better pitcher when my change works then when my curve does.