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'Over the Wall' or 'Standing Tall'?? (Clips)

KrakatoaKrakatoa1,000+ posts
In the recently-locked "Arm Action is King" thread, there are a number of great video clips on the very first page......

Now, I've been telling my son ('08 RHP) that he is too 'vertical' upon release and follow-through and that his upper body should probably finish off roughly paralell to the ground. Thought I would show him all these clips mentioned above, as all these guys demonstrate what I'm talking about.

Then....we come to Mussina, the last clip in the sequence......and by golly if he's not basically still vertical after release.......

My son's coach last summer suggested he appears to be throwing 'all arm'....and it's because his body would not appear to be 'driving' through on release...but at that time, having just turned 16, he was still throwing 80-81 (Stalker), 'all arm', if that assessment was accurate (and I tend to think it is, based on my own impressions).

Fast forward about one year, son is throwing harder than ever (guessing 84-85 Stalker), has grown a couple inches, added a few pounds, and so on and so forth.......but noticed in a recent video take that he is still 'standing tall' right after release.....I think he could instantly add 2-3 mph by coming over the wall, hurtling his whole being towards the plate in a more horizontal finish, and of course the ball would be released that much closer to the plate.

But then I see Mussina.........

I have decided to post these clip-links despuite the recent trend towards these things becoming the staging point for raging battles of ideology and will. If this thread turns into that kind of battleground, I'll have to delete the posts. Hoping for some good, non-contentious feedback on the kid's follow-through.....

Thanks,

KRAK
"I would be lost without baseball. I don't think I could stand being away from it as long as I was alive." Roberto Clemente #21
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X XFactor1,000+ posts
Trunk flexion. Yeahhh you're right that it'd increase the velocity (and help take some stress off the arm), and here's why.

5.28: "The role of trunk flexion is notable. It accelerates linearly while other smaller rotary funcitions occur. Its greatest velocity occurs just as the lower arm, wrist, and hand are about to move virtually in unison. It has great potential for increasing throwing velocity because it can accelerate linearly for a relatively long time and it has a large mass. That trunk flexion is the last major segment action before arm positioning occurs suggests its importance in determining release velocity of the baseball (Hirashima, Kadota, Sakurai, Kudo, & Ohtsuki, 2002). Stodden et al. (2001) compared low and high-velocity pitchers. They showed that in the high-velociy group the forward lean of the trunk was greater than in the low-velocity group. The mass of the trunk was displaced through a greater range and theoretically would finish with higher momentum than if it was moved through a shorter range."

The more trunk flexion, the longer your arm has a chance to decelerate.

Hope this helps
Last edited by XFactor
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Krakatoa:
Fast forward about one year, son is throwing harder than ever (guessing 84-85 Stalker), has grown a couple inches, added a few pounds, and so on and so forth.......but noticed in a recent video take that he is still 'standing tall' right after release.....I think he could instantly add 2-3 mph by coming over the wall, hurtling his whole being towards the plate in a more horizontal finish, and of course the ball would be released that much closer to the plate.


I like his mechanics and wouldn't mess with him, especially if he's effective.

Maybe he would release the ball a little closer to the plate, but his release point would also drop. He also seems relatively low at the release point anyway (but that would be easier to see with a 3B view).

Again, I wouldn't mess with him.

Also, I think the clip you are referring to is Verlander rather than Mussina.
Last edited by thepainguy
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Krakatoa:
Now, I've been telling my son ('08 RHP) that he is too 'vertical' upon release and follow-through and that his upper body should probably finish off roughly paralell to the ground. Thought I would show him all these clips mentioned above, as all these guys demonstrate what I'm talking about.


For safety and fielding reasons, I don't like it when guys finish with their torsos horizontal. Maddux finishes leaning forward about 60 degrees with his glove at his GS pec.

This is what I teach my guys to do.

Last edited by thepainguy
D dm5910+ posts
In looking at the clip, he seems to be rotating quite well but has a relatively short stride. It certainly is debatable whether or not a longer stride with more trunk flexion is required. Like you point out, Verlander is a "stand up and rotate" kind of guy and it's working for him. On the other hand, I'd hazard a guess that you'll find more "long stride with momentum and trunk flexion" guys out there. Which is better? Good topic for another dedicated thread. Personally, I'd go with the longer stride and trunk flexion.
KrakatoaKrakatoa1,000+ posts
I tend to agree, dm. One of the problems we face over here is that the grounds crew drags out a portable mound whenever baseball is played and it's a shorty.......I hate it, because all it does is train our pitchers not to step too far or they could get injured on the two-inch front lip of the thing.........I've shown him videos of Lincecum and how faaaaaar out in front of the rubber he gets and how much closer he's releasing the ball in relation to the plate.

btw, my brother teaches in the English Dept at St Mary's in Halifax
Last edited by Krakatoa
RT Roger Tomas100+ posts
In those clips, your son has runners on base and is using a slide step. It's hard to tell from the camera angle but it appears he leads with the front leg which opens up almost immediately. I believe this causes the hips and then the shoulders to also open up early and that has the effect of shortening the stride and creating the uprightedness as well as creating the appearance of throwing with all arm (except that THAT very well may be more than just appearance.

I think that if he were to lead with the front hip and get it going (sideways) toward the plate sooner and faster, he could use a bit of a knee lift and stay closed longer allowing him to build more momentum, lengthen his stride, get out over the front leg and finish less upright. The front leg may appear to be slower to the plate but the total body will be about as quick as before.

The portable mound would still be a problem, as you mentioned. And I don't know what to tell you about that except that maybe your son can lengthen his stride enough to plant beyond the edge of the mound. I hate portable mounds too.
Last edited by Roger Tomas

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