I went to a HS game last night for the first time in a while and one of the starting pitchers threw 149 pitches. To me this is insane and at the root of the problem. We have always said here "don't be that HS parent that interferes" but I can tell you that the next day I would be having a one on one meeting with that coach and outlining what I considered to be an acceptable pitch count for my son.
Originally Posted by BOF:
I went to a HS game last night for the first time in a while and one of the starting pitchers threw 149 pitches. To me this is insane and at the root of the problem. We have always said here "don't be that HS parent that interferes" but I can tell you that the next day I would be having a one on one meeting with that coach and outlining what I considered to be an acceptable pitch count for my son.
That is unacceptable. There is NO reason any pitcher should be throwing 149 pitches in an outing. Yes, I agree. The next day there should be a conversation had!
Perhaps the most accurate article I have read about the subject So far.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_...-tommy-john-epidemic
Another one? I hope all is good but... same old story.
Looks like it's definite that he needs surgery. Most exciting pitcher to watch in baseball, in my opinion. Tough one to swallow as a fan. Here's to hoping for a smooth recovery.
Years ago most teams kept their young aces in milb until they physically matured. Now just seems to be a rush to bring them up.
Putting high velo aside, is there a connection between coming up younger and TJS?
Putting high velo aside, is there a connection between coming up younger and TJS?
Originally Posted by TPM:
Years ago most teams kept their young aces in milb until they physically matured. Now just seems to be a rush to bring them up.
Putting high velo aside, is there a connection between coming up younger and TJS?
Putting high velo aside, is there a connection between coming up younger and TJS?
Its worth considering for sure, but MLB looks at it as young pitchers only having a certain amount of pitches in them before tj or something else happens so get what you could get out of them before it does happen.
http://www.prosourceathletics....ng-process-is-wrong/
Here is a different point of view. I tend to agree with this one.
Originally Posted by shortnquick:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Years ago most teams kept their young aces in milb until they physically matured. Now just seems to be a rush to bring them up.
Putting high velo aside, is there a connection between coming up younger and TJS?
Putting high velo aside, is there a connection between coming up younger and TJS?
Its worth considering for sure, but MLB looks at it as young pitchers only having a certain amount of pitches in them before tj or something else happens so get what you could get out of them before it does happen.
TPM- Age of debut is cyclical…we've had a lot of great young talents in recent past. I don't think it's a trend. Also, there hasn't been any type of correlation found with regards to your question. Stress on the arm is the same wherever a pitcher is throwing. The majority of injuries of this type stem from overuse at the younger levels (as this thread is aptly named) or a mechanical issue.
shortnquick- That's simply not true.
shortnquick- I should rephrase that rather curt response. There is a financial aspect to organizational philosophy of treatment of prospects. That doesn't have anything to do with impending injury, though.
Originally Posted by Bulldog 19:
Originally Posted by BOF:
I went to a HS game last night for the first time in a while and one of the starting pitchers threw 149 pitches. To me this is insane and at the root of the problem. We have always said here "don't be that HS parent that interferes" but I can tell you that the next day I would be having a one on one meeting with that coach and outlining what I considered to be an acceptable pitch count for my son.
That is unacceptable. There is NO reason any pitcher should be throwing 149 pitches in an outing. Yes, I agree. The next day there should be a conversation had!
When my son was a HS freshman in the state tournament they needed to win one of two to advance to the championship game. Our opponent brought in a senior pitcher in the fourth inning of game one. He ended up winning game one and after a 45 minute between game delay, threw all of game two. A total of 17X pitches. I want to say 176 but I know the first two numbers were 17.
My son is now a college sophomore. The opposing pitcher is a college RS Jr.They were three years apart and are now one year apart. I was watching the game on TV where he had the elbow blow up when my son was a HS sophomore and the opposing pitcher was a college freshman.
Did the two events have anything to do with each other? Nobody knows. The fact is, nobody really knows why this injury happens.
My own son came out of a game this spring with "piercing elbow pain" as described by the media. Luckily it was a knot in his bicep that proved to be nothing (other than a painful session with the message therapist).
My daughter is (was as of two weeks ago) a softball pitcher. "They can go forever" is what we always heard. A good friend and PHD in physical therapy told me last year that long term studies of softball pitchers are showing all kinds of shoulder / elbow problems later in life. I have no medical reference, but his advice to me was to put her on baseball pitch counts until more is learned. They have no meaningful professional leagues, so the sample size for study is way smaller than baseball so we won't know for years and that is only if somebody studies it.
At least in baseball, people are starting to put together studies and hopefully we'll all figure out what the best approach is.
Maybe my gradchildren will benefit...
Did anyone catch the MLB special a few days ago "The Pitching Delimma" - on Tommy John Surgery? I taped and watched last night - thought it was very good. Its not like it solved the issue but lots of good viewpoints.
On the panel - Tom House-John Smoltz-Jim Kotz - Tom Verducci - Dr -(can't remember his name but has performed thousands of TJ surgeries) but also had interview with Dr. James Andrews - and Bob Costas hosted the panel.
Main points I took away is that there is a difference in pitching and throwing. OK to throw daily - not OK to pitch from a mound. Kotz was saying he used to throw every day - especially after a long outing on the mound - he was just throwing - not pitching.
2nd main point I took away was - year around baseball is not a good thing.
The 3rd point I took away is that there is a disconnect between strength/conditioning coaches and the medical trainer. The medical trainer should be heavily involved in developing programs - especially for pitchers (not just talking about injured players but all players). The reason why many pitcher come back stronger after TJ surgery is not because of the surgery - its because of the well developed rehab program developed by medical profession and the hard work put in by the players.
Justbaseball - this is a great question. I am all ears for any thoughts on this.
Alan
Originally Posted by justbaseball:
Originally Posted by RJM:
Until pitch counts and appearances are tracked from the time a pitcher first pitches no one is going to be able to provide a correct answer. My guess is it's all the pitching some kids do on travel teams (not because it's travel/because the coach and parents are ignorant) from ages 9-14 when they are growing the most and the most vulnerable to growth plate and associated tendon and muscle issues.
Travel isn't the problem. Travel just provides the avenue for abuse when combined with coaches and parents who aren't concerned with arm health. A kid can now be in a weekly pitching rotation for several months from 9u to 17u. When I was a kid we had LL. We pitched once a week for two and a half months. Typically only 11 and 12yo's pitched.
Blaming travel for arm problems would be like claiming it's silverware's fault people are fat.
All true probably. So how do you dis-encourage parents from buying into the year-round baseball that is so prevalent and so often 'hyped' (including on this site) and almost surely adds a lot of pitches onto young arms at earlier and earlier ages?
Originally Posted by JMoff:
They have no meaningful professional leagues
The members of the Akron Racers, Chicago Bandits, USSSA Pride, and PA Rebellion might disagree with you.
Just watching pregame talk before Rangers game, and they were talking to Steve Busby about Martin Perez and his potential TJ, as well as the announcement regarding the Marlins phenom about to go under the knife. His reply as to why we are seeing this more often, was due to the love affair with blowing up the radar. He mentioned when he pitched for the Royals, very few threw consistent in the 90's, and those who didn't learned to pitch, change speed, hit location, etc., and were successful. He said now, you know you won't get a look unless you throw in the 90s. He indicated with all the instruction on mechanics, along with the level of baseball specific conditioning available, you should see less TJ.
Hisfinal comments were, "while you have more pitchers eclipsing 90, very few are MEANT to throw 90". Could be true. Radar guns just may be the enemy, although Tommy John himself was not known as a power pitcher, so who really knows!
Originally Posted by Back foot slider:
Just watching pregame talk before Rangers game, and they were talking to Steve Busby about Martin Perez and his potential TJ, as well as the announcement regarding the Marlins phenom about to go under the knife. His reply as to why we are seeing this more often, was due to the love affair with blowing up the radar. He mentioned when he pitched for the Royals, very few threw consistent in the 90's, and those who didn't learned to pitch, change speed, hit location, etc., and were successful. He said now, you know you won't get a look unless you throw in the 90s. He indicated with all the instruction on mechanics, along with the level of baseball specific conditioning available, you should see less TJ.
Hisfinal comments were, "while you have more pitchers eclipsing 90, very few are MEANT to throw 90". Could be true. Radar guns just may be the enemy, although Tommy John himself was not known as a power pitcher, so who really knows!
Human anatomy isn't supposed to be perfect, I would suspect that the 90+ v might be the difference maker in these cases, most likely God didn't give them a perfect UCL in the first place.
Originally Posted by SultanofSwat:
Originally Posted by JMoff:
They have no meaningful professional leagues
The members of the Akron Racers, Chicago Bandits, USSSA Pride, and PA Rebellion might disagree with you.
Point well taken. When my daughter saw the stipend they were paid, she decided college, graduate school and (God willing) medical school were worth more than the $2,500-$5,000 those girls were getting paid.
Plus, dad pays all those college fees, so those don't cost anything. 
In a topic that won't go away....
The abuse of youth sports. If we're not careful, it may kill youth sports.
This writer interviewed me for over an hour. He only used a couple quotes. Not even the best ones IMO.