"Overuse"

My main concern was always the labored innings, the 30-40 pitch innings that wear them out and cause them to compensate mechanics.

This is a great topic for discussion. I wish more 9-12 parents use this service.

I watched a lot of baseball and it makes me sick when I see a youngster on the mound throwing 100 plus pitches BUT most importantly throwing curveballs and sliders at such a young age. Watching a coach(parent) call for a curve ball, curveball, curveball, change. What happend to the fast ball?

IMO, kids today throw way too many breaking pitches at such a young age that eventually it will catch up with them. Its nice winning but at what price? A potential career for a W??

I would love to know how many breaking pitches Walden, Toleson, Italiano, Beavens, and all other 90 plus FBers in the metroplex threw at that age. Personally, I never let my kids throw a breaking pitch until they were 14-15 and I did not want them pitching until they were HS Soph/Juniors to save their arms.

Finally, I would NEVER let them throw more than 75 pitches at that age (9-12)and make them ice their arms, run, play long toss, etc. I would give them a 4 day rest at that age BUT we all know that the competitiveness of the coach(a DAD---probally one of us) wants the kid to win the big game much sooner than the recovery time needed.

My philosophy as coach was to work on placemnet of the fastball through age 12 and into age 13. Teaching a variety of fastball grips for movement then introducing a change-up and then a breaking pitch at age 14. I would call the breaking pitch less than 20 percent of the time. The pitch count for any one outing would build to around 70 to 80 pitches regardless of game situation.

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I would love to know how many breaking pitches Walden, Toleson, Italiano, Beavens, and all other 90 plus FBers in the metroplex threw at that age. Personally, I never let my kids throw a breaking pitch until they were 14-15 and I did not want them pitching until they were HS Soph/Juniors to save their arms.

Italiano did not pitch as a Soph. Really did not rely on curve as Junior or Senior...did not have to.

I held my pitchers to even lower pitch counts than are being listed here at the younger ages (9-12).

And never pitching two days in a row.

Agree with those who didn't allow curves/sliders at the early ages. I didn't want them throwing sliders at 14, personally.

Several of my pitchers, who didn't have arm problems while on my team, went on to other coaches who pitched the devil out of them. They were pegged as the ace on those teams. One of the coaches had one pitcher throwing every day of three day tournaments. Several of them came down with elbow problems. One had surgery. Another had to lay off pitching for a year. Made me furious.

I was upset not only with the coaches, but also with the parents. I had talked with the parents about pitch counts and rest periods. The parents should have stepped in.

Feel sorry for those boys having surgery their senior year. Especially the one who hasn't nailed a college down yet.

One of the Manship brothers was headed to Notre Dame. Had TJ surgery the summer after his senior year in HS. ND was not pleased.

This is not just a "kid" problem....
We are right in the middle of district now - How many #1 pitchers will pitch 6 or 7 innings on Tuesday and then pitch an inning of relief on Friday? I see it all the time.

Or how about when the playoffs roll around and the "ace" pitches the first game of a three game series and then comes back to pitch the 3rd game on 2 days rest?

Only in high school baseball will you see insanity like that happen.

It has become almost commonplace for most of the better pitchers in these parts to end the HS season with 100-150 innings of mileage from less than three months of baseball. These days when it rains and games are cancelled, especially in the early part of the HS season, the first thing that crosses my mind is that some of the pitchers I know will at least get to give their arms a day or two of rest.

It makes sense that if more pitchers were developed into rotations then teams wouldn't have to rely so much upon those 1 or 2 front-liners to gobble up all of the innings and tax their arms so heavily. The other side of that coin is that it's easy to be critical but many programs just don't have the luxury of a deep stable of arms in their particular school.

I know with our summer team Coach Thornton is very in tune with how we use the pitching staff. Last summer we used 15 pitchers for a total of 333 innings. Out of those 15, ten of them threw 18+ innings with five logging 35-41 innings. Again, not everyone has the arms to spread the innings around but IMO these young men should ideally not be pitching more than 6-9 innings a week or having more than one appearance a week unless they are in a specific spot or closer-type role.

It's a terrible way to prove a point but if young arms continue to fall apart at such early ages then it might lead to more caution being taken across the board. Just look at how much pitchers of old would throw compared to the average pitcher today. The game has evolved and will continue to do so but we need it to change for the better....and soon.

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It is a terrible way to prove a point but if young arms continue to fall apart at such early ages then it might lead to more caution being taken across the board. Just look at how much pitchers of old would throw compared to the average pitcher today. The game has evolved and will continue to do so but we need it to change for the better....and soon.

DBAT,

You nailed it right on the head there. We need it to change for the better....and soon.

That's exactly right. I see 10-12 year old kids in my training facility here with their teams practicing and some jack leg coach showing them how to throw a curve ball. I step in whenever I can on that. It's so crazy, but some of the coaches say "if we want to win, then we have to do it. There are other kids on the teams we're playing throwing curves" It just makes me sick! I really feel that curve balls at 10-12 years old is what is causing a lot of these injuries when the kids get older. I could be wrong, but I just don't think so.

Like I said in an earlier post, my son ML has been flirting with the slider a little bit, but I just won't let him do it quite yet. And he just turned 16 last week! I guess I'm just a little gun shy.

By the way...Coach Payne has done a great job about taking care of arms over here in Rockwall. ML's only thrown 17 innings this year up to today, so overuse isn't a problem right now. Our #1 and #2 probably have less than 25 innings as well.

Some parents just need to really take a look and watch closely just exactly how much their son is throwing. Especially pitchers that play other positions after they have pitched. It just makes good sense.

That's all for now......I'll shut up.

The Ranger team physician(can't remember his name, Dr. Meister maybe)and Jaime Reed(Ranger trainer?) came and talked to our Booster Club back in December and they have some eye opening stats that back up the overuse theory.

Probably the only way to get the message out is for credible sources like these guys, to hit as many large groups as possible. I am sure if they were asked, they would be more than happy to speak at your booster club meetings. I don't want to speak for them, but they seemed very excited to pass this information along. I know it may be too late by the HS age, but it never hurts to pass the info along. You never know who is listening.

What about pitching a freshman over 100 pitches in a subvarsity game that doesn't really matter? Is that ever okay?

JMHO, but throwing over 100 pitches in a game wouldn't be okay if the game did matter.

Some might say it's just not productive to second guess another coach. We are not intimate with what happened or with the details surrounding the pitching situation. We also don't know if the pitcher is rubber armed.

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Some might say it's just not productive to second guess another coach. We are not intimate with what happened or with the details surrounding the pitching situation. We also don't know if the pitcher is rubber armed.

I agree about not second guessing coaches but the term 'rubber arm' is like nails on a chalk board to me.
No such thing IMO.

Personally, I don't care what happened or what the details were. No excuse for pitching a HS kid (much less a freshman) over 100 pitches in a game, rubber armed or not. JMHO.

Guess I'm a little touchy on this. I have seen some of the kids I coached at 13 or 14, who went on to play for other teams after I stopped coaching, go down with arm injuries. And the problems were attributed to overuse. Their new coaches were leaving them on the mound for high pitch counts, pitching on consecutive days, etc.

Might not be productive to second guess another coach, but on this topic I won't hesitate to do so.

Okay Guys (and Ladies), what is the best way for a parent and/or son to handle this situation? Who says what to whom and when?

Alright, who threw that live hand grenade onto the table???

Let me ask for opinions. I dont have a child, let alone a HS age pitcher, but at what point does one question how often a pitcher is on the mound.

If a particular RHP goes Friday (8ip, 100+ pitches), Tuesday (8ip, 100+ pitches), and Saturday (6ip, 65-70 pitches), is that too much? Regardless of what the pitcher has left in the tank or what he thinks he should throw, should a parent question this particular pitcher's use?

It depends on if he throws an 80-pitch bullpen on Thursday, kevin. Tell us you don't see that in south Texas.

In my book, your scenario is too much. Most HS kids throw in a game situation (80-100) once a week and throw a bullpen between starts. I have no problem with relieving for up to 30 pitches if he has 4 days off in between. Having said that, many HS pitchers also play a position when they are not on the hill. Those throws (practice, etc.) should also be considered.

Well, we've done a pretty good job of ignoring the hand grenade that ballboy left on the table.

With all the coaches we have in this forum, surely one of them will advice ballboy on how to address pitch count concerns with the coach.

Surely???

Thanks Texan. I was feeling ignored.

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I agree about not second guessing coaches but

All I can do is laugh in amazement this statement came from you.

pass

smart move.....

On almost all issues, I believe that the player needs to do the communication with the coach.

On pitch count, however, I'm not sure that this still holds. On this one, perhaps a friendly & low key conversation between parent & coach might be best. Be sure to pick a good time & not hold the conversation in the presence of other parents or palyers, of course.

Best approach might be inquiring about the pitch count limit the coach uses for the boys. Very non-threatening. Then proceed cautiously from there based on the answer you get. Asking that your son be held to limits such as ASMI recommends shouldn't be a problem. But...

There is a chance of backlash. But if I have to choose between HS ball with arm abuse or no HS ball, I'll go with the latter. I have heard of some pitchers who are going select only (summer & fall, not playing HS ball) for such reasons.

My son hasn't had pitch count or rest days problems in select. The top select clubs seem to have a good handle on taking care of pitcher's arms.

Well, the strawman is on the table now. Everyone else can start shooting now.

I'm amazed that no coaches are giving you advice on whether/how to approach the coach. That doesn't violate any coach's creed - written or unwritten.

Good luck.

What do you do about a kid who only gets stronger and more accurate the longer he is on the mound?

I have a 13yo who just looks better and better the longer he is out there. Luckily we have awesome (select)coaches and they don't overuse the arms of our players, but I know they must hate only having him pitch a few innings with him still looking so good.

I guess as he gets older, and hopefully stronger then he will be able to take care of business with fewer pitches needed. As long as his D holds up behind him understandably.

He will start HS ball next year as a Freshman, so we will be crossing the "coaching issue" bridge later on. His safety and longevity is most important of course.

Been lurking for a while, and love the info here, and thanks for all the experience y'all share with us newbies!

LB

When I coached, I shut them off at their PC limit regardless.

Welcome aboard 2010. Enjoy the ride....

welcome 2010 ........ we need all the women folk we can get !!