Part of the deal???

Infielddad, no kid deserves this kind of treatment, and I'm quite sure no kid signs up expecting this.

The unfortunate part of this is that it's the Coach's team to do with what he pleases. Doesn't make it right, wrong, or indifferent.

baseball is a game based on failure, and the resultant frustration

OS8,
I agree it is a game of failure, but I can't figure out here if it is the player or coach.
If the player fails, which they all will, is this an acceptable way to "coach" them through that failure?
In other words, in a game of failure, is coaching that does not permit failure okay?

Randy and Nicholas,
Each of you make very valid points.
However, if this had been a chronic issue, why not pinch hit before the AB? Don't you make the point by doing that and not humiliating the kid?
If it isn't chronic, then what the heck is the reason for this?
My guess was the kid had either the take sign or some direction to be quite selective. One way or the other, on that pitch, he didn't get the job done.
The team is about 20 games into their season.
A good coach would know those tendencies.
In my view, a good coach would have managed the issue in the dugout,especially with a college player.

quote:

In my view, a good coach would have managed the issue in the dugout,especially with a college player.

The player blaitantly (spell check?) disregarded the take sign. I'm sure that it was discussed before the inning, and probably again implemented before the pitch. I agree that the coach shouldn't have embarrassed the kid, but who showed up who first? Maybe the coach felt that the player doesn't necessarily agree with the team's approach in this situation, and would rather try to selfishly enhance his own stats rather than miss a possible good pitch to hit in an attempt to draw a free pass to first. That doesn't make it the right thing for the coach to do, but you can assume that no one on the team will miss a take sign again, assuming that was the reason for the pinch hitter and embarrassing tongue lashing.

www.blastbat.com

Its kind of interesting infielddad that I had about a 7-inning discussion last night with a former D1 college assistant coach and now area HS coach about coaches and their relationship with their players.

He explained that every coach is trying to find a way for his team to play for themselves...as a team...to band together, rise up and if need be, 'show that S-O-B what we can do!' He explained its not the only way, but it is a way that is not uncommon.

As you well know I saw the same thing today...a bit closer up too. Even more was said loudly by the dugout. I felt very badly for that kid and his parents if they were there. It was humiliating in front of a lot of people, not to mention his peers on both teams. The kid inserted to hit looked very uneasy looking back at his teammates before he approached the plate to finish the AB.

I don't know if it has any ultimate positive impact or not, but it was uncomfortable to watch.

Personally I wouldn't do this but not because I am going to embarass someone or hurt their feelings but I don't want a cold batter going up there with a 1-1 count (if I remember correctly).

I'm not saying that embarassing anyone is something that should be done a lot but it's not the worst thing in the world. It does hurt your feelings but it does present two possible solutions / outcomes from it. 1) you pout and moan about how poorly you were treated and you miss out on a learning experience OR 2) you get over it because it's not the end of the world and learn a valuable lesson.

I played for some pretty hardcore old school coaches in the early 90's. They embarassed me and I hated it but I learned real quickly not to do _______ because I didn't like feeling that way.

If you are doing it all the time then you are not coaching - you are a pretty sadistic person. Getting embarassed is not the end of the world.

Besides - when a basketball player throws a pass out of bounds or shoots an airball or takes an illadvised shot get taken out nobody mentions their feelings getting hurt. I know baseball is different because it doesn't have unlimited substitutions but it's still "embarassing" to make a bad play in basketball and the horn blares and here comes someone in for them. Why isn't that the same?

Randy,
I remember the situation also.
If a player isn't hustling and is clearly dogging it, any coach is clearly right in sitting him, no matter what the situation. To do otherwise would seemingly condone "dogging it."
Coach, in my view, baseball is a game played well when it is played with confidence and aggressively.
If a college player makes a mistake, whether he missed the take sign, or went out of the zone, that kid, in my view, is likely laying awake wondering. If he was aggressive before that AB, it would be very unusual if he is in the next AB.
Coaching is a very difficult job. How you handle a situation impacts 24 other players and how they play the game. If you are going to humiliate one if front of the other 24, you are either a great coach who can do it and make those 24 understand and respect you, or you may have 25 players who don't have confidence.

He should have removed the player to make his point.

JBB,
I see you got your 9! Way to go!

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Randy,
I remember the situation also.
If a player isn't hustling and is clearly dogging it, any coach is clearly right in sitting him, no matter what the situation. To do otherwise would seemingly condone "dogging it."
Coach, in my view, baseball is a game played well when it is played with confidence and aggressively.
If a college player makes a mistake, whether he missed the take sign, or went out of the zone, that kid, in my view, is likely laying awake wondering. If he was aggressive before that AB, it would be very unusual if he is in the next AB.
Coaching is a very difficult job. How you handle a situation impacts 24 other players and how they play the game. If you are going to humiliate one if front of the other 24, you are either a great coach who can do it and make those 24 understand and respect you, or you may have 25 players who don't have confidence.

You make some good points and I agree with you.

I'm just saying that if this is a once in a season thing then you have taught that player a lesson and it will probably teach the other 24 a lesson. The team SHOULD get better from it.

If a coach does this all the time then there is a HUGE problem and lacking confidence is one of them but probably not the biggest. You will have players hating the coach and end up being miserable. That will destroy confidence as you suggest but (to me) the worst part is you are destroying team morale - it becomes miserable to play the game.

Evening to my southern friends . Hows the season going ? Hoping for some warmer weather up here in the north .

Wow, some of you have to wait until college to get this kind of stuff? Geez, we already have it in high school. The coach (2nd year) tells everyone they s*ck, is trying to get a few of the seniors to quit, favors a couple of kids and hates everyone else. I really don't consider him a coach. A coach would try to teach those that s*ck and correct what they are doing wrong or advise with suggestions for improvement. I've really never seen anything like it (except for last year, his first year). I don't see how his approach is good for the team at all. He also expects you to play when injured - like you are lying about it or something - has no real intrest in getting you healthy - on to the next guy - you're done.
Again just because an adult holds the title of Coach, does not make him one. JMHO

quote:

If a coach does this all the time then there is a HUGE problem and lacking confidence is one of them but probably not the biggest. You will have players hating the coach and end up being miserable. That will destroy confidence as you suggest but (to me) the worst part is you are destroying team morale - it becomes miserable to play the game.

Reminds me of two folks I know.

One, a college player, transferred to another school out of frustration with his coach. He told me that he would wake up every morning and ask himself, "How is coach going to insult us today?"

The other, the father of a college pitcher, said the entire team is having issues with the new pitching coach. He has tried to re-work the techniques of every pitcher on the staff, some 30 minutes before a game, with disastrous results. The No. 1 pitcher had an ERA of 3 last year and it has jumped to almost 8 this season. The coach has verbally berated his pitchers on and off the field repeatedly. A few weeks ago, one pitcher was struggling and the coach charged the mound and let the pitcher have it, with f-bombs flying. Surely, there are better ways to coach.

A few things here

#1 we do not know all the details and that is fact

#2 losing with two out you need runners and perhaps the batter had a take sign which if the info is correct would have made the count 2 balls and no strikes--as a coach I would have been irate with him swinging at a pitch that would have been ball two

Please stop with the parents knowing more than the coach bit---if you are that good take the job and stop b i t c h i n g--- I have seen the good and bad---you learn to live with it

Reminds me of a story about my "favorite" summer ball coach who, after the pitcher didn't properly attend to a bunt, ran out to the mound and started screaming at the pitcher calling him every obscenity known to man at the top of his lungs. The pitcher proceeded to turn a triple play on the next batter. He walked off the field, looked the coach in the eyes and simply said eff you. HOwever, I don't think it was the coaches "motivational speech" that inspired him.

There is a tremendous difference between a kid missing a sign and a kid disregarding a sign from a coach.

Only the hitter from this thread has that answer.

All is good in baseball when everyone is hitting and pitching well(winning). When its the other way around, every physical and mental error is accentuated and micro-analyzed, and usually results in a coach wearing every negative emotion on his sleeve.

Giving player direction is about the only thing left in the coaches control, so if that goes south also, wigging-out almost seems natural.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
A few things here

#1 we do not know all the details and that is fact

#2 losing with two out you need runners and perhaps the batter had a take sign which if the info is correct would have made the count 2 balls and no strikes--as a coach I would have been irate with him swinging at a pitch that would have been ball two

Please stop with the parents knowing more than the coach bit---if you are that good take the job and stop b i t c h i n g--- I have seen the good and bad---you learn to live with it

#1 Absolutely correct!

#2 Maybe I missed something, but no one said the parents knew more. I simply said that it was humiliating in front of his teammates, opponents (both peers), umpires and the group of parents who could hear everything.

I am all for old school, tough-minded coaches, disciplinarians and blunt people. I, myself, am a lot of those. I am NOT for humiliation in front of a couple of thousand people. I cannot see how that works in the short or long run. It could have been handled a few minutes later out of the sight and earshot of nearly everyone. IMO, the very best coaches remain calm in battle and pick their spots and locations for a temper tantrum.

quote:

I have seen the good and bad---you learn to live with it

I don't think you ever "learn to live" with or accept the bad.
Our son is now an assistant high school coach.
I would never expect, or want him to accept, that it is okay to see the bad and "learn to live with it." I would expect him to learn from it, and do whatever he could to change or improve it, not to live with it.

Back when I was a young Marine I had an old Master Gunnery Sergeant who taught me a very valuable lesson about humiliation.

He told me this: The 4 "P" principle.

Praise in public. Punish in private

Then he commenced to getting all over me!

quote:

Is this what college players deserve when they agree to play in a DI program? Is this coaching part of the deal?

Under normal circumstances the behavior would be over the top. But we don't know the circumstances leading up to the situation. There may have been circumstances from earlier in the day to as far back as ongoing circumstances over the course of the season leading up to the coach's reaction.

Agree with YoungGun...Publically- Give Credit, Take Blame. Keep your dirty laundry in "the family".

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Is this what college players deserve when they agree to play in a DI program? Is this coaching part of the deal?

Under normal circumstances the behavior would be over the top. But we don't know the circumstances leading up to the situation. There may have been circumstances from earlier in the day to as far back as ongoing circumstances over the course of the season leading up to the coach's reaction.

I just realized, just as anyone else could have, that you were talking about Washington State, who is having their best season in years.

We have a webster here whose son plays and another who has committed. I have not heard any complaints regarding the coach at all from my friend whose son plays there and we share a lot of dirt.

I think that sometimes we have to sit back and think about what we post, I am guilty of that myself. One post could affect recruiting or other situations.

We've played lots of teams where I have seen some coaches behavior I didn't understand, or my own son's coaches behavior at times, where I am sure some people here have seen the same. But I was careful what I posted knowing some of our parents son's played at that program or that those schools were recruiting some of our websters sons.

JMO.

I read this thread last night thinking that the original poster was very careful to not mention the coach or team by name. Isn't that how we should handle topics like this?
Now that the cat is out of the bag, I still think the original post was valid and well framed. It's up to all of us to maintain that anonymity. I'm sure many can read between the lines, but many more can read plain print.

Having said that, I'll agree with younggundad's sentiments. I'd even be willing to bet that said coach would admit (privately, of course) that he'd do things differently next time. It sounds like he did this out of his own frustration. Instruction and motivation is better provided in private. Coach, boss, or superior, it's never a good idea to humiliate your people in public.

I agree it was done anonomously and a post for thought. And I still agree that the coach might have handled it differently.

However, sometimes it's just not hard to figure things out. I was just giving a heads up in case coach bashing or player bashing took place.

quote:

It's up to all of us to maintain that anonymity. I'm sure many can read between the lines, but many more can read plain print.

I did not know the name of the program until it was publicly identified.

Maybe I was off base.

Regardless, it sometimes is not too hard to figure out.