@TexasLefty posted:

I was with my son at a travel team tryout recently, and I was having a hard time believing the gun.  Not for him, but many of the others.   Same gun for every pitcher, max velo relayed to the mound coach at the end, which everyone could hear.  I swear some of the kids throwing low 70s looked like they had more perceived velo than kids throwing high 70s.  Not all of them, but I would’ve guessed a few of those low 70s kids were hitting highest 70s or even 80s. Yet, they were not by the gun.  I’m not saying the gun was wrong.  What factors into this?  

Rose colored glasses.......

Almost every parent over-estimates by at least 5mph.

The other option, though less likely, is they are using a "pocket radar" off to the side or on an a weird angle. Pocket radars are pretty accurate they just need to be straight on with the ball.

I swear some of the kids throwing low 70s looked like they had more perceived velo than kids throwing high 70s.  Not all of them, but I would’ve guessed a few of those low 70s kids were hitting highest 70s or even 80s.

How old were these Kids?

Height, release point, the way the catcher receives the ball and the fact that none of us are as good at this as we think.

From my (limited) experience and understanding pitchers who are "all arm" or upper half dominant look like they're throwing harder, as their arm speeds might indeed be faster, but they don't use their lower half optimally. Throwing in a grunt or other signs of perceived effort also seems to enhance the illusion. Others who move well athletically, loose arm/ "look every bit the part" have an energy leak often near the end of the kinetic chain that the untrained eye has trouble seeing (without slo-mo video from an iPhone)

and the fact that none of us are as good at this as we think.

Sadly I am exactly as good as I think.

@Good Knight posted:

and the fact that none of us are as good at this as we think.

Sadly I am exactly as good as I think.

I’m not as good as I once was. But I’m as good once as I ever was.

- Toby Keith

Perceived velocity can increase based on release point, how far they are getting down the mound before release (ie closer to plate), or by when you can pick up the ball,,,but I'd think that's more perceived by hitter than if you are in the stands.  I often go by the ear test.  I noticed when the ball starts getting over 81-82, it starts to hisss, the old pffffssssssstttt.  Of course the low seam baseballs are harder to get that to happen.  As mentioned a high intent delivery can deceive you as well.

Part of Tom House's philosophy is go fast. The logic behind that is get down the mound and out as far as you can to obtain that perceived velocity. I know JucoDad's son has probably heard this a time or two, GFF!

Here is a pretty good explanation on real, perceived, and effective velocity from Tom House.

https://mustard.ghost.io/the-s...-effective-velocity/

HSDad22 & Good Knight

When I hit off Bob Gibson, I went by the "sound"  of the ball. It appeared like a "blur".

When Bob Feller pitched, there were NO radar guns. They used a motor bike to race the pitch.

"True story"       https://www.efootage.com/video...tch-races-motorcycle

Bob

My son was the opposite.  Not a real big kid 6', maybe 170 when he graduated HS.  He had been up to 91, but looked like he was just standing out there throwing with a buddy. I think it really threw batters off because he looked like he was just tossing a meat ball to them, but it was by them before they swung.   Even in college, when he hit 93 nobody could believe that he was throwing that hard because he looked like he wasn't even working to get there.  To this day I still think that if he had had a PC that had any real PC knowledge that he had 3-4 mph in the tank without much trouble.  2 years after he graduated (and hadn't pitched in 3) he went with a buddy who is an minor leaguer to his winter workout.  Sat there for an hour watching his buddy throw....then got off his chair and with just a couple warmups he threw 101 on a pulldown lol.

@TexasLefty posted:

I was with my son at a travel team tryout recently, and I was having a hard time believing the gun.  Not for him, but many of the others.   Same gun for every pitcher, max velo relayed to the mound coach at the end, which everyone could hear.  I swear some of the kids throwing low 70s looked like they had more perceived velo than kids throwing high 70s.  Not all of them, but I would’ve guessed a few of those low 70s kids were hitting highest 70s or even 80s. Yet, they were not by the gun.  I’m not saying the gun was wrong.  What factors into this?  

In theory it could be a variety of pitch types thrown, but I'm not sure about this particular case if fastballs are in the 70s....there is nothing to gauge 70+ mph.   What is the pitch that changes the hitter's perspective?  Curveball in the 60s? 

Like @Buckeye 2015's son, my college son was not an imposing figure on the mound tipping the scales.  He had a fluid motion, hid the ball well, and had a devastating change up and cutter that he could make dance.  It looked effortless.   The change up setup the fastball and made it look a lot faster than it really was (low 90s).  Changing the hitters perception is pitching.

Also, some of the newer catcher's mitts make it sound a lot louder which gives the perception the velocity is greater.  I've had the pleasure of being mere feet away from a pitcher throwing 100mph in a bullpen.  The first was John Rocker, and I really didn't see the ball....I heard it.  But I had no experience being around that velocity so, I didn't know what I was witnessing.   The second time as at PG WWBA in East Cobb (the old venue).  There were a significant number of scouts watching this 17-year old guy throwing a bullpen.  I don't recall his name but my son remembers him.  Again, it was a new experience and I had no idea how to gauge any of it.

Perceived velo is mostly about the hitters perception. Extension (stride length and release point) have a lot to do with it (it’s a ranked measurement for Savant https://baseballsavant.mlb.com...tcast-r-pitching-mlb) but how well a pitcher hides the ball and movement also have an impact.

My son throws what the old-timers call a heavy ball. There’s an optical illusion where the ball accelerates half way through its travel. It can’t really happen, but I think it’s how our mind does the physics - the ball should be there, oh shoot it’s actually much closer. The combination of ball appearing to speed up, and movement catching me in the lower palm ended our having a catch senior HS year (worried I’d catch one off the grill).

It’s pretty hard to get a feel for velo in the stands behind the plate, I find it easier from the side or at a distance. I still over estimate the guys with a lot of whip in their delivery.

@JucoDad posted:

I still over estimate the guys with a lot of whip in their delivery.

Buckeye and JucoDad's replies instantly made me think of Matt Cain. Some guys are so strong, efficient, and uncomplicated, that they just don't look like they're doing much (then the ball is abruptly by you). Definitely agree with above regarding whippy guys & velocity perception.

I have absolutely no idea unless it is flashed on the screen.  I always had a pocket radar to even be in the vicinity.  I've watched a lot of baseball (and pay most attention to pitching) and it hasn't helped me at all.

Their are a lot of reasons that perceived velocity varies among guys that actually throw at very similar speeds. In addition to those already mentioned I would throw in my 2 cents. All reasons have to do with illusion. There is something that particular pitcher does that appears different to the eye in some way. One mechanical way is when a pitcher keeps his shoulders in line with the target when initially separation of the hands, and has a short arm circle that is also in line with the target, the batter can’t track the ball during the process of the pitcher delivering the pitch. He doesn’t see the ball until it’s out of the pitcher’s hand. This creates the visual image of the ball getting on the hitter quicker than expected and the hitter’s mind tells him that it’s a higher than actual velo. A high spin rate FB that holds it’s plane can have the same effect, although not so much until you get velos 80s and above. Funky deliveries that distract the eye of the batter can have the same effect, although I’m not a fan of players that do that intentionally. I’m good with it if it’s organic.

@JucoDad posted:

My son throws what the old-timers call a heavy ball. There’s an optical illusion where the ball accelerates half way through its travel. It can’t really happen, but I think it’s how our mind does the physics - the ball should be there, oh shoot it’s actually much closer. The combination of ball appearing to speed up, and movement catching me in the lower palm ended our having a catch senior HS year (worried I’d catch one off the grill).

This is interesting and something similar may have been throwing off what I was thinking I was seeing that particular day.  It probably was more in the mechanics that several mentioned.  This was mostly incoming 9th and 10th graders, so mechanics were probably all over the place.  I was just looking at it from a spectators point of view because I know nothing about mechanics.  Thanks for the conversation!

TexasLefty;

During my 2 years with Uncle Sam one of 1st games against Ft Bliss, El Paso. The pitcher for Bliss was a RHP name Jack Sanford who had played 7 years in the Phillies Minor League teams. I K'd 4 times with one foul ball. His fast ball "blew upward" thru the strike zone. In the Army barracks that night I analysis what I observed.

His curve was not controlled and any pitch below the waist was straight, however above the waist "climbed" !

After his 2 years Jack returned to the Philly's and won his 1st 10 games, led the National League in Strikeouts and was named "Rookie" of the year

Later traded to SF Giants and won 20 games and pitched in the 1962 World Series. We have often visited. The heavy ball is in the wrist movement. We often discuss our Army days.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/jack-sanford-2/

Bob



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Your reply to Perceived Velocity: TexasLefty; During my 2 years with Uncle Sam one of 1st games against Ft Bliss, El Paso. The pitcher for Bliss was a RHP name Jack Sanford who had played 7 years in the Phillies Minor League teams. I K'd 4 times with one foul ball. His fast ball "blew upward" thru the strike zone. In the Army barracks that night I analysis what I observed. His curve was not controlled and any pitch below the waist was straight, however above the waist "climbed" ! After his 2 years Jack returned to the... Liked by TexasLefty.

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