Is this a PERFECT example why the new VHSL pitching rule is not the right protocol?

How many pitches did the Sherando pitcher throw for 9 innings?

Winchester Star: The Northwestern District Player of the Year, Reid Entsminger (nine innings, five hits al­lowed, four walks, one hit batter, and eight strikeouts) had trouble locating his off-speed pitches consistently until the sixth. But once he did, Entsminger got into a groove, strik­ing out the side in order in the eighth and finishing up his 130-pitch stint by starting a rundown that caught Danny Pugh in a steal attempt to end the ninth. 

 

To close ... this game is an perfect example WHY there needs to be pitch limit vs. innings limit.

I think it is unfortunate that there is a limit for a single game as demonstrated by TCWPreps post.  Perhaps post-season the limits should have been lifted?  There is a finite amount of baseball in a short period of time.

True or not, the rules were “hurried” into place for this season.  There was an emergency vote taken to get these passed.  Assuming the VHSL is not willing to eliminate the rules, I wonder what would make them better – and be practical, something that the VHSL might take into consideration.

If there truely is a constructive way to make the rule better, perhaps we should take the idea forward to the VHSL for consideration.

The remaining part of this post is just one man's opinion

Would a pitch count work?  Probably not, at least not in a way that could or would be evenly administered.  Then what about an extra 10% being pick-off throws – are they counted – they take a toll on the pitchers arms as well. How about the pitch to the plate that is made when time has been called?  I know this is splitting hairs, but do you only count official balls and strikes as pitches?

Inning limits?  We all have our own opinions about how these have worked out.  In the VHSL rules clinic presentation, enforcement is by asking for the scorebook, or following the newspaper recaps.  I know from firsthand experience that the paper does not always get these right.  Tongue-in-cheek - perhaps the home book should transmit the game to VHSL and they keep the official record.  They could make them available online the same way they do the brackets – yes, I know how that would be received.  And there is the issue of who actually keeps score and how well they are trained.

Was VHSL trying to regulate baseball in general or just high school baseball?  Since baseball players usually play on more than one team leaves the opportunity any player could be over used.  If they were just looking to police the high school game does there really need to be a limit?  My slant on pitching at the HS level, if you throw a kid too much, then he becomes ineffective.  “Too much” is based on each player, since all kids are different.

As you can see the further this onion is peeled, the more my eyes tear up.

130 pitches is ridiculous!  Why would a coach or parent allow their son to by physically abused like this.  For what purpose does is serve? District Title, Regional Title, or a show in states?   One day we will see coaches or HS charged with neglect.   How many throws did the catcher throw in this 130 marathon?  Very disappointed

Even with a pitch count rule, I would want a max innings rule.  The act of warming up, going hard, sitting, warming up, going hard, sitting, should not be cycled through but so many times.  It's nice if a kid is efficient but you have to end the repeating of that cycle at some point no matter how low his pitch count might be.  Also bear in mind he probably threw 25 pitches pre-game and another 60-70 in his pre-inning warmups.  Those are not as stressful as game pitches, but they aren't nothing, either.

 

I do think a pitch count would ideally become part of the rule but I think the VHSL came to the conclusion that enforcement would be a nightmare -- and I don't disagree.  The innings limit is easier to verify and, while it might not be a perfect rule, it does represent a substantial improvement over the way things were.  I suspect the VHSL wanted to avoid having the perfect be the enemy of the good, as the saying goes.  For example, had the new rule not been there, who knows if that other kid would've been pulled even after 130 pitches.  At least this way, he had to come out and everybody knew it.

 

As for catchers, I have zero concern over a kid returning a ball 130 times after pitches.  We are not talking about the same thing at all, when you compare throwing at max effort off a mound to flipping a ball back and maybe throwing hard 25 times out of all those.

I would add that, now that we have a season with this rule under our belts, surely some fine tuning could be considered.  To the extent this year's rule is looked upon as the first step towards getting it right, it's a good rule.

 

On the other side of this, I think it does need some adjustment when applied to the state tournament.  I don't want to see a championship game played at 15-13. Either we let a kid throw with only 3 days off (Tuesday and Saturday) just the once -- knowing that he has a long rest period coming after --  or we move the quarterfinal games up to Monday.  But forcing a team to go to its 4th or 5th arm to win the title is going to result in some random outcomes and ugly games.

Even little league (official little league) got this one right in my opinion. Everything is tied to pitch count. For each age group majors/jrs/srs there is a pitch count that determines the requirement for 1 day/2 days/3 days rest before pitching again. Limit high school kids to 90 pitches in an outing. Anything over 50 is 3 days rest. If he throws 30-49, 2 days rest. 29 and below 1 day. This would allow a lot more flexibility and would prevent an idiot allowing a kid to throw 130 in a game. That's right, whoever allowed that is an idiot and I agree with the poster who wrote "for what, a high school or district championship?"

I watched a district championship game the other night with 1 starter who told my son he threw over 160 pitches and I'm guessing the other starter threw 130 or more.  And it was the JV championship. 

But the rule didn't cause that.  That's something that has always gone on.  The rule is curtailing abuses, but to say it isn't stopping everything you might want to stop is not an indictment of the rule as is, it's just saying you want still more rules.

 

Be careful what you wish for.

Another question: should a team be allowed to bring a pitcher back after a delay?  Witnessed in the Dominion District final a 45 minute delay due to lightning.  After 3 innings, one coach brought his starter back while the other coach did not.  Can that be an issue as well?

This is one of those common sense deals that can easily be overthought.

 

Coaches have been carrying clickers to count pitches for 100 years.  They cost $5.  When a Pitcher leaves the game both coaches agree on the pitch count.  At end of game Home team reports pitch count data via email to some AD and copies opposing coach.  AD sits at a desk and puts it in a spreadsheet. 

 

If team fails to report data they forfiet their next game and coaches pays $50 or $100 fine.  That'll keep'em motivated!

 

We are talking no more than 5 games of data per day so # of player, Name and Count.  I would expect this excercise to take 15 minutes max.  AD then sends data to all coaches for the next game.

 

Coach gets caught cheating Fire him no questions asked and publicly humiliate him on the front page of sports section for not caring about players.  He can then get a job coaching baseball at Rutgers.

 

I would not worry about rain delays if pitch count is below a reasonable threshold but my opinion is any coach worth his salt doesn't bring the kid back after 45 minutes or an hour.

The fact that we even need pitching rules is the issue!  Previous HS coach pitched my son 100+ pitches when I was out of town and then tried several more times over the next year and I stopped it each time.  His current coach has a strict pitch count limit as does his summer team coach.  Any coach who doesn't get the risk shouldn't be coaching anyway!

luv baseball said:  "When a Pitcher leaves the game both coaches agree on the pitch count."

 

Ah, but there's the rub.  What happens when they don't agree on the number?  Let's say the limit is 100, one guy has 99 on his clicker and the other guy has 101.  Now what?  It is the norm, not the exception, that any two guys tracking pitch counts will differ by a few.  You miss a few 2-strike foul balls, or you accidentally double punch the clicker, those sort of things.

 

I know they are doing this on the honor system during Little League regular season, but at tournaments there is an official scorer supplied by the Little League organization to keep the official count.  That's because when winning starts to matter to people, we know that mischief will follow.  If you are ready to fund an extra umpire to keep a clicker on each guy, the VHSL will likely sign you up.  But the VHSL is working against a landscape where there are no funds for that sort of thing.

I've seen many people keeping score and counting pitches who miss/forget foul balls.  I'd feel more comfortable with the field ump keeping count.

To the extent that you accept that HS baseball coaches are meglomaniac jackassess then there is nothing you can do.....including counting innings because they will all monkey with it.

 

As noted the fact that coaches abuse the arms that requires any response is the problem.  Any solution that includes them is probably a mistake anyway.  So make them settle up after every inning.  If we cannot count on these people to act responsibly then coaching the game by "adults" should be discontinued. 

 

Under that kind of threat people will straighten up and act right. 

 

Besides I'd bet if you gave the kids a box of balls and $75 to pay the ump and let them just run the thing themselves they'd have a better time anyway.  Beyond that it would allow them to work on their organization and negotiating skills. 

 

I think I might be on to something here.  Next step is to stop the parents from attending.  More kids than you'd think would probably like no coahes and parents involved!  

Most coaches are fine.  But the fact that we have guys running pitchers out there for 130 pitches or even more demonstrates that we have a few bad apples to deal with, or maybe just some guys who are clueless or just not paying attention.  That's why we even talk about having any kind of rule in this area. 

 

So once you realize that is the problem, any solution that relies on those same guys to fix it is probably destined to run into difficulty.

Philosophical question: Let's say there were no rules.  Honestly, how big of a problem would that be?  In other words, what percentage of high school coaches would overwork pitchers to a dangerous level?  And, of those who were overworked, what percentage of pitchers would actually suffer arm damage?

 

My point in asking this is that I think we all realize we now live in a "better safe than sorry" society.  But how severe was/is the problem that this rule was meant to address?  I'm not suggesting it was a zero or a ten, I'm just trying to gauge how widespread it was/is, if at all.

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with a coach trusting a 17/18-year-old kid to throw 120 pitches.  But that's just me - and I never pitched.

I applaud VHSL for finally getting something in place to help prevent overuse of a young man's arm and I agree, I think it needs to be a combo of both pitch count and innings pitched.  Just innings pitched is not going to prevent overuse of a young man's arm.

Again - was this a widespread problem?  We have some pretty solid data on concussions, for example, and there are new rules to address that issue.  

 

But how extensive was the problem of pitchers being overworked to a dangerous level?  I'm asking if this was a real, significant issue, or just one that was largely hypothetical with a few outliers.

This is not only a high school problem. I witnessed a MIDDLE school baseball coach pitch a 8th grader 158 pitches! I have seen another MIDDLE school ball coach pitch a 8th grader 118 pitches and turn around and have him pitch the next day to close out a game! This is a problem. I hope that VHSL keeps the kids health in mind. I believe that it is also up to parents & players to have a discussion with the coach as to what their pitch limit is. I am at everyone of my son's games and take a pitch count. We have a limit and I strictly enforce it. I shouldn't have to! I do this to protect the health of my son.

I am so glad my son never played for the coaches you are talking about. 160 pitches in a middle school that is too SAD. I say again MIDDLE school. That coach needs to be fired ASAP.

We seem to be going around in circles: We all have a vague understanding that, of course, it's bad to overwork an arm.  Agreed.  But my question is - how serious was that issue in reality?  And isn't the danger exponentially higher for an 11-year-old than a 16-18-year-old?

 

In other words, was a high school pitcher starting twice in the same week (Monday / Friday or Tuesday / Saturday) a huge concern?  Or can kids safely do that?  High school pitchers have been doing that forever, but is the danger greater now because of "extra" teams the guy might play for during the year (travel ball, etc)?

This is a widespread problem because organized baseball is being played from age 9 forward spring, summer and fall.  The cummulative wear and tear is the problem.   The more exposed to abuse the more likely injury becomes.

 

I can tell you very few youth or as they are occasionally reffered to here "Daddy Ball" coaches ever take the time become truly expert on pitching mechanics or read someone like James Andrews to learn how to handle the young arms.

 

All that matters is winning that 6 team tournament on Sunday afternoon.  If the kid is making his 137th pitch of the weekend that closes it out...then everyone is happy with the trophy that will end up in the trash.  Some parents will actually switch teams so they can be on a "winning team" as if that matters at all at 10, 11 or 12 years old.

 

The HS coach that is only worried about winning the game in front of him is just the last guy in line and not necessarily the problem all by himself.

 

 

Yeah, from what I've read, most of the damage is done long before the kid is 16 or 17 years old.  Seems like the HS coaches are just the ones left holding the bag at the end, and having to guard against having cumulative injuries happen on their watch.

Does the VHSL have it right or not?

Nope.  Pitch count is better. 

 

Watching a kid labor through 120 pitches in 4-5 innings is painful while seeing on breeze through on 75 in 6-7 innings can be a joy.

 

The VHSL will not stop kids from overusing their arms however because of Showcase, Legion etc that goes on all summer and into the fall.

Not even close.   My two cents.....

 

Pitch counts are used by LL, most travel coaches, American Legion coaches, college pitching coaches and professional pitching coaches.  I fail to see a reason why Virginia high school baseball needs to do it differently.  Have our math skills deteriorated that much?    Pitch counts are a more accurate way to measure pitching load than innings.