Perfect Game Question

Paul...Best organization of its kind in America and very objective. They have no reason not to be. Their growth speaks for itself.

Quality and now quantity combined.

Sounds like your friend has had sour grapes for breakfast. Same catcher could be 1.95 at one time and then 2.07 the next throw. Running doesn't matter much to a catcher.

7.2 is not likely #16 out of 500 at a PG showcase.

If you have it, spend a few bucks and see. If your son can play, he'll be rewarded. If not, he'll make excuses and you'll hear the mom and dad "bit.." about PG. Happens all the time.

Our experience has been PG is very above board and professional. But we've never attended a "tryout" for anything.
What immediately comes to mind though is: What else did the kid do? Can he hit? Can he catch? Pop times and speed are great, but there's more too it than that. If he has a bunch of holes in his swing, or can't block a ball....?????? Or maybe someone had all those tools and he lacked in some area????

I'll tell you another thing, based on our experience. If you keep trying to figure out the "why did they pick this kid over that kid" or "why is this kid rated higher than this kid?" you'll drive yourself CRAZY
Believe me I know! The advice I've gotten on this site helped me see that and how futile it is to go down that path.
(Sometimes I start to go there, and I'm gently slapped back into the right frame of mind )
These people, coaches, scouts, PG, Team One, College Select, are in the baseball business. I don't think they're going to select or promote or "overrate" anyone just because of politics. If they did, they wouldn't enjoy the excellent reputations they do. (Or credibility either)
Just my 3 cents

_______________________
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby, Hall of Famer

As far as the 7.2 goes, I guess they noted it was a slow track. SOme kids were over 8, so I assume it was real slow. I would guess this kid usually runs around 7.0. He said he didn't hit great in the games, but hit well in practice, so I assume that was why he was didn't make the elite team. But any C with a pop time over 2 has no business being there either unless they want him to play 1B!!

I'd like my son to go one of these, but the $s is a factor, and I just wanted some feedback on these things. I had another friend send his kid and he loved it. Had nothing but good things to say about it.

PG is the real deal. They'll evaluate and give their objective opinion. You may not like their evaluation and you'll have to be ready for that. I've never seen them evaluate in a hurtful way...that is they do look for the positives. I have seen no evidence whatsoever of politics playing into their evaluations. They don't claim to be "perfect," but they're pretty darn good at what they do. And as others have stated, they're well regarded by both the pro and college scouts.

I dont mean to have this sound like I am being negative towards "parents" in general so don't take this wrong.

Most (probably 75%) of parents do not understand what is envolved in the evaluation process. There is more to an evaluation than pop times and 60 times and mph readings. Those things are used as references.

I still to this day hear parents tell me, his times were off, the track was slow, they only checked his velocity for 1 inning....stuff like that.

An evaluation or at least a good one takes experience and an understanding of what is expected at the next level (college or pro). An evaluator attempts to project a players potential down the road in realation to where he is right now. Perfect Game does an outstanding job of this evaluation process. I have watched them since they started and believe me you will here Jerry say this a lot. We are not perfect, but they are close enough with their accuracy that both Professional and Collegiate Scouts consider their opinion on players when deciding to track a player for their team or organization.

What I am saying is that there are no specific rules for evaluating. You have to have a nack at it and they (PG) have a pretty good sense when it comes to evaluating players. They put an incredible amount of effort into their evaluations, it is definitely not "political". This is not mommie and daddy ball on a local level at all.

I watched every single pop time and recorded every single pop time during the Underclassman from behind home plate...just for my consideration as we were looking for a catcher for our summer team. There were only 4 catchers, thats right only 4 in my opinion that were sound fundmentaly in all areas of footwork and making throws. In fact a catcher that I knew was good had only 1 time below 2 (a 1.97) during the pop time sessions. This same player, threw a 1.87 in a game later that night with a left handed batter and on a curveball.

There are ways to understand the game and one of them is applying what you see in games rather than what you see in stagged situations like pop time throws and 60yard dashes. The obvious question is .... so why do they do the staged stuff. Again, that is for reference only. They look at that only as a reference to what they see in games.

I hope I have helped everyone understand that there is more to an evaluation than 60 yd dashes, pop times, and mph. I have been at this a long time and can tell you that nearly every time there is a complaint it is directly related to jelousy or insecurity.

----------------------------
"The price of victory is high, but so are the rewards!" - PAUL BEAR BRYANT

Very, VERY well put TFusa20.

Our son went to an ID showcase in November, and I thought their evaluation of my son was pretty accurate. It also helped us in the fact that it told us what he needs to work on, and at the same time gave us hope that he was indeed a good player. Or at least, could be there in the near future with a little tweaking. I'd spend the money. We've been to numerous camps trying to find out what he needs to do, and the Perfect Game people were the first ones to really put it in black and white for us. I'd rather have someone break it down to me so I know what to fix, than for someone to blow sunshine up my behind and I have no clue what he needs to work on.

Paul,

How ya doing? I use to converse with you over at InfoSports as BigDS several years ago.

I have faith in PG! They evaluate on what potential they see, not necessarily on that day's performance. They know what they are looking for and understand a good player can have a bad day or a bad player with poor mechanics can have a good day. They look past that and try to evaluate potential for growth.

If you can afford it I would go.

BTW, we are looking to send my youngest son to a College Select Showcase in your neck of the woods (Binghamton)in August, You might also consider sending your son there too.

Play every game as if it were your last

BigWI,

We are most likely going to do College selct in August as well, so we'll have to get together. I think this PG thing is going to be right for him. Sounds like pretty no-nonsense stuff.

Just to confirm the previous posts, my son has been to one Perfect Game event, and they are a first class organization, very well respected by pro scouts and college coaches. My son is not a top prospect, but we thought they accurately judged both the things he needs to work on, and some areas of strength or projectability.

Also, as mentioned above, Perfect Game selects a list of "Top Prospects" from each event ... not always the players who had the best performance TODAY, but those who are prospects for the next level.

PAul,

Which PG event are you looking at?

Yeah we'll have to get together in Binghamton. That would be cool, after all these years.

Play every game as if it were your last

Paul,

A suggestion - dont worry about the pop times and the speed and the 90 MPH nonsense.

Have your kid ready to go - and attend a top notch event - like PG - among others. Thats it.

Dont get caught up in the carnival act of who can hit the clown head the highest up the bar - if you know what I mean. That is alot of what some of the showcases have become. Has absolutely nothing to do with actually playing the game.

There are a ton of kids who flash great 60's - but have no clue how to run the bases. There are a ton of kids that put on a great show in BP - but absolutely stink at the plate in a game. And there are a ton of guys that throw 85 mph across the infield - but have no clue how to play in a game situation.

Dont get caught up in the numbers. Just have your kid ready to go - and ready to show that he can play the game.

Good luck.

I agree with its on this...my analogy has always been ...there are those that can do the mulitiplication tables by heart but when it comes to solving the problem they are clueless...there are those that can run, hit, and throw great but when it comes to putting it all together they falter...just my observation

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

PG saw things I and my son did not see. After pitching in a game on Saturday my son and I agreed that he was not a top prospect, and decided to go home Saturday afternoon. Imagine our surprise a couple of weeks later when we saw on the PG web site that he had been selected for the prospect games on Sunday.
Botom line parents and players don't always see objectively.

The dollars spent are well worth it. Perfect Game Scouts are very good. We are committed to Perfect Game as the Premier Tournament Host and Scouting Service. Parents evaluate their kids, they don't evaluate thousands of kids. Perfect Game does and they know what they are doing. Go, it will be beneficial. Then get your son on a team that goes to Perfect Game Tournaments and you will see why it's a very good organization.

PFBear -

Perfect Game is a great tool for your son and your family to help you through the PROCESS of being recruited for baseball after high school. Their evaluations are honest, and help the athlete know what kind of future he may have and at what level.

They expertly recognize good fundamentals and know how to evaluate the tools a player needs to play at every level.

(The player you are talking about may have better speed or pop time but may be lacking in another area that they see as important to college of pro ball. - Only PG can tell you)

The Top Prospect Showcases are VERY well attended by coaches from all areas and all divisions, Ivy league, JUCO, etc. If your son is a junior in HS and does well - be prepared for your phone to start ringing on July 1 !!

I highly recommend that you take the opportunity to go to a PG event. Have your son mentally and physically ready to do his best and if your son loves baseball..........he'll enjoy it!

There are a lot more things that go into a player evaluation other than pop times and sixty. The key ingrediants are ability to hit and play defense.

My son attended Western Regional Underclass Showcase and I found it to be very worthwhile. I think that evaluations were fair and reasonable and very reflective of players performance during three day event.

One thing to remember is that evaluations are based on projections of how player fits into next level.

I for one would encourage you to attend. I am taking my son to Perfect Game National Underclass Showcase

All great points here. As a parent whose son is ready to go to the "next level", he may not have gotten there without the help of PG.
I know so many kids who have attended their events, and after reading their evaluations, I would say that PG is 99% accurate.
Very important thing to remember if you attend, evaluation is, as stated in this topic, based on the next level. One needs to forget about the pop times, yard times, walks, strikeouts, etc. Some parents use the evaluation as a tool to help the player work on specific areas, and appreciate the feedback. Others just can't accept that their player, when compared with his peers from ALL over the country, are not a 9 OR 10.

PG IS A CLASS ORGANIZATION
The only thing I would recomend to whoever is going to any of their showcases is to be ready to play and not to came up with excuses. Kids will soon find out how they are is relation to other players around the country.

One thing I found at a Perfect Game showcase, and I've heard is the case at others: THEY OVERRATE THE IMPORTANCE OF THE 60 YARD TIMES. YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO FLY, BUT IF YOU CAN'T HIT A LICK SPEED WON'T HELP YOU. I'M NOT SAYING SPEED IS TRIVIAL, I JUST THINK SOME OF THE SHOWCASES IGNORE KIDS HITTING ABILITY AFTER THEY TIME THEM IF THEY ARE SLOW. KNOWLEDGABLE BASEBALL PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS WATCH A KID WHO CAN HIT AND FIELD AND THROW EVEN IF HE'S NOT A SPEEDSTER.

How do you over rate speed? You either are are aren't. They time speed. They give results. jmo

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

mhs

I think you are off base here.
Speed is what it is !!!!!!!!!

If a kid mashes he is what he is !!!

I have yet to see a kid, in your words, ignored, if he cannot run but he mashes !!!!!

Would Wade Boggs ever have won a 60 yd dash in his prime ?--I think not

Could Babe Ruth run ? ___LOL

TRhit

Is speed overrated? Speed is part of the package, it is not the whole package. The last time I checked you cannot steal 1st base. No matter how fast you are if you swing and miss or bunt and miss blazing speed doesn't help at all.If showcases and scouts are giving up on a player because he is "slow" then they are doing a great disservice to those players who don't swing and miss and can lay down a bunt when called for. What ever happened to those players who have a "feel for the game"? the ones who always throw to the right base and hit to the right side with a runner on 2nd. I would hope that there is still room on teams for those players. You can measure a players speed but you can't measure his heart and desire. I hope Perfect Game and other showcases look a lot further than a stopwatch when evaluating a player at their events.

mhs,

I would agree with TR and Bighit.

Speed is speed. It is only one tool - and either you have it or you dont.

And I dont think PG overlooks anyone who can hit the ball. Regardless of their 60 times.
JMHO

trob

I cannot speak for other showcases but we have all the teams play three games under game conditions with two "patch" umpires on the field at all times.

Also included is a PA announcer who highlights players who make exceptional plays or get big hits during the game so that the coaches are aware of who the player is.

By the end of the weekend we have a full idea as to the players ability and skills and I assure you that "dirty uniforms" count a lot more than one would think.

Tom Rizzi
www.collegeselect.org

TRhit

I can speak to what I saw at a wide range of showcases over the last year including Perfect Game, Area Code, USA Baseball, TeamOne and others. Everyone is looking for the 5-tool player, almost no one is that. If some of the other tools are there, they won't be overlooked. I can think real quickly of a player who is no speed burner but hits, hits with power, has a gun and has the competitive heart of a lion. No one has missed him at all...he will likely go in the first round.

Speed is a big plus, but they are not fixated on it.

________________
"Pitching is the art of instilling fear," Sandy Koufax.

Thank you TRhit and justbaseball for responding to my post and for the reassurance that the player that always seems to find a way to help his team win is still valued at all levels of play. I've played and watched a lot of baseball in my 50plus years and this emphasis on stopwatches and radar guns is,IMO, not a positive.By the way, I just finished reading MONEYBALL and while Billy Beane might be a headcase I like the way he thinks on personnel issues. He seems to see a bigger picture than most GM's.

Well, I guess I'm in the minority here -- but for my grandson, PG 2003 was a waste of lots of money. He was not selected for the "elite" team and was not named a top prospect. But ... he did get to play in 3 innings and two of those innings were in the outfield. The rest of the time he was on the bench. He is a shortstop! He never missed a ball, never bobbled a ball and had great form. At the bat, he was a slugger. (By the way, in the three innings he played, he only got to bat one time.) This was for the entire PG weekend. It seemed to me that the boys that got the most attention were the ones that came with a team and not by themselves or had a coach well-known in the baseball circles. His evaluation was good, but we knew he had excellent skills. We went to buy photos that had been taken and there were none of him to buy. Too bad -- For us! As a closing little note -- our ballplayer has been playing Varsity in his 6-A high school (sophomore and junior years), hitting .492. In the district and regional tournaments he hit.667. He is on a summer travel team now and hitting .542. He has made no errors in the infield and has a high percentage of put-outs & assists. Would we go back to a Perfect Game? Most certainly NOT! Are we bitter and have sour grapes? Could be! But, the up side of all of this is ... he is being recruited by 2 major universities -- Division 1 schools. Not bad for one of the 'scrubbies' of PG. While it is true, there are many good people involved with PG, some kids "slip through the cracks". Many of the coaches and scouts that come "know" who they are coming to take a look at and they spend a lot of time 'looking' at that player. Many of you make it sound so easy and so wonderful. I'm glad you've not had the experience of the 'other side of the fence'. P.S. One last word. On the last day of PG, we were watching a game and a boy got hit hard in the mouth by a hit ball and was lying on the field, bleeding profusely and in pain. It took 9 1/2 minutes to get a trainer to the field to take a look at him. It took a total of 21 minutes to get an ambulance there. One of the moms ran to the refreshment booth and got ice for his face. She got back with the ice before the trainer arrived on the field to give some medical (?) attention.

BB Fan:

Did he go to a PG Showcase or was it a WWBA event where he was a member of a travel team?

Our experience with PG Showcases is that every player played at least half of every game, usually much more, and hit in every game. The players were showcased in the positions that they stated they played. Infielders had time during the event at 2b, SS, & 3B. Players who were primarily Pitchers threw at least three innings and saw ample time at their secondary position.

The rising Seniors seemed to Pitch/hit first, but I think that is understandable. My son as a rising Junior last year pitched later, but still got plenty of playing time as did everyone on his team and to see where he stood against some great competition.

If your son was with a team participating in a PG/WWBA event such as Jupiter or East Cobb, PG does not control the Coaches decision on playing time or position. The team's Coach is responsible. Based on our experience, it sounds like that is the case here.

TO: GADAD

Our grandson went to Perfect Game with his mom and dad and grandparents (we went along to watch him play). He was not on a travel team and he did NOT get to play 1/2 of the innings each game. Believe me ... it was just as I said. We are definitely NOT PG fans! A waste of money! Big time!

Showcases are seeking the "gems", there are alot of rocks.

It doesn't take any real BB knowledge to see an obvious difference in an outstnding athlete with 3 or 4 tools.

The real BB talent connoiseurs are those that can see a kid with the "right" body type, who shows some promise but is not a "gem" and then project the upside of that growth. But it takes more than a two day evaluation to really determine the extent of the "heart".

Bob Williams and the Area Code team does exactly that and for my money is the best of all the player evaluation programs.

I have read all the posts about Perfect Game and decided to give my opinion about it.
My son attended the Underclass Showcase in Florida in January. For the most part I felt it was run well, and they played everyone, some more than others.
BUT, the "elite" team was chosen before the last game was even played. Some players (pitchers, for instance) didn't even get to show their stuff! The worst thing about this, and this may be along the lines of "political" is that I had asked my sons coach who picks for the "elite" team. He told me that the Perfect Game staff does that. But at one of the games I heard a member of the staff came up to the coach and asked him who HE wanted to put on the all star team, so I guess he actually got to pick. I do know that alot of deserving kids did not make it while others did. It reminded me a little about high school ball....the politics.
That's my opinion on it. It was a good experience for the most part. I wouldn't pay for him to travel across the country again for it though, but would consider attending if it were close to home.

My son just attended a PG event......how long does it take for the evaluation/profile to be posted? Can anyone advise? He came away not entirely satisfied with his performance but with a positive attitude to work to improve....and he is. We thought the event was well run....pitchers got the most attention, but that's a fact of baseball life... Our opinion.....it was worth the time and money....and he will do another one in August.

What do you mean when you say "pitchers get most of the attention?" How does playing time work at a PG event ? And for a player whos' first position is a pitcher, how many innings will he throw ? What about a player whos' 2nd position is a pitcher, how many inning will he usually throw ?

Bob, The scouts spent more time observing pitchers than position players. The scouts gave the pitchers more attention....had their eyes and their guns on them....they went from field to field checking on pitchers.....don't know how else to say it. Don't know if you are curious and asking serious questions or offended and trying to make a point....in either case......in my experience pitchers usually get the attention.....and it's understandable and okay with me.....hope you are okay too....

I wasnt trying to make any point, just curious.

Thanks

after 3 PG showcases (2 underclass and 1 national) i am convinced that PG is able to find the best players. the rankings though are sometimes confusing. in st. pete at "the National" last weekend many of the "2nd 100" were obviously as good or better than the top 100 ranked players. maybe its just too difficult when there are so many excellent ball players in that group.The good thing about going was that all of these guys found out how they fit in with the very best.

Soxnole,

With all respect, the top 100 ranked players included #1 Justin Upton, Austin Jackson, Justin Bristow, Andrew McCutchen, Chris Dominguez, Eric Massingham, Bradley Clark, Cameron Maybin, Ralph Henriquez, Buster Posey, Josh Zeid, etc. In fact, most all the high ranked players proved why they are ranked where they are. I don’t know who in the 2nd 100 was obviously better than those mentioned above. However, there were several 2nd 100 guys who will be moving up in the national rankings.

That said, a few of those ranked in the top 100 did not perform as well as we’ve seen them before. Also, the next player rankings will change and reflect what our staff saw in Tropicana Field, Joplin, Missouri, and other events since the last rankings were released.

Rankings are no more than opinions and our opinions are highly regarded in baseball. In fact, you will see many of the players we rank highly, appear in other rankings. This happens even though the others doing the rankings have never seen the players involved.

Everyone who has become a top ranked player knows just how much interest it creates with MLB scouts and College Recruiters. We don’t claim to be correct in every case, we claim to be honest in every case. We can afford to be wrong, we just can’t afford to be wrong “on purpose”. And we don’t rank players in the top 100 that we have never seen perform.

It’s not just the PG events that we scout, we have people scattered throughout the country that attend other events. For example, right now we have people scouting the Tournament of Stars in Joplin, Missouri, both Junior Olympics (Florida and Arizona) and several other events.

Congratulations, on the way your son hit the ball in Tropicana against some top level pitching. Hope he and you enjoyed the PG National Showcase.

To others,

#1 we do put importance on running ability. Not too much importance though! We could name some of the fastest runners we’ve ever seen that we did not rank very high, if at all. Believe it or not, we are very aware that there are other things than running times that play into the evaluation of a player. And we see those things and take them into account in every case.

I’ve decided not to reply to those that post without being members, such as <BBFAN>, but just this once I will.

<BBFAN> whoever you might be.

I guarantee you are, at the very least, exaggerating if not outright lying for some reason. I assure you if we did not name your son to the “elite” team it had nothing to do with politics. Every position player at every PG Showcase is plugged into a continual batting order, so it is impossible for a shortstop to get one at bat in three games. Perhaps your stop watch was off on the 9.5 minutes. Believe me when we see someone “bleeding profusely” we don’t ignore it. However, if you can prove all these things and others you mentioned actually happened, we will gladly refund all money including all expenses associated with your son and his entire family attending this event. In fact, we will even pay them for the time they spent at this event. We promise to keep this all confidential, just email pgjerry@qwest.net
We realize this could amount to several thousands of dollars, so if it’s true you should definitely be contacting us. I don’t think we will hear from you, for some reason!

You mention your grandson “never missed a ball”, “never bobbled a ball”, and “had great form”. You go on to say “he was a slugger” and his “evaluation was good”.

Congratulations on the DI offers.

<AggieMom07>

When we choose an “elite” team, by the way we never use that term in describing our Top Prospect Teams, we take every game and everything into account. The coaches do have a say in who should be placed on the Top Prospects Teams. After all, they’ve seen every play and have a good feel for the players. It’s not a “who HE wants" thing, it’s a who does he think BELONGS thing. Then we take his suggestion into account as the staff in charge makes the decisions. Often we get calls about how we slighted a player. If it happens, I assure you it was not intentional. Unlike <BBFAN's> grandson we sometimes make mistakes and we try to solve the problem in the best way possible. We make selections based on what we see and there are absolutely no politics involved. That said Perfect Game is not PERFECT! But we wouldn’t be very successful if we started ranking and giving high praise to the wrong players.

I apologize for the length of this response.

PGStaff, Please don't get me wrong. I was not questioning any of the great players you mentioned. My personal favorites were Dominquez (has been since I first laid eyes on him) and Posey-if he gains any size,he will be heading even higher on the list. Not many can throw that hard with such an effortless motion. My comments were directed more toward some of the 50-100 fellows that seemed to struggle. Thanks for the kind words about my son. Believe me with the talent to choose from at Tropicana, nothing could be more difficult than to put an exact # on any of these future stars.