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Personal Trainers

S strik310+ posts
I have read this forum for years and as you can see I have not post many times. Lately, I have been feeling the need to share some things from my own personal experiences. One of those being SPORTS TRAINERS. First, I have 5 sons and have trained my sons for the past 20 years I never saw the need for a trainer. I did research and bought everything I could find (Jon Doyle and others) concerning training and not just for baseball but, for overall well being, body sculpting, mental training, stretching, speed and strength. The workouts I came up with worked well, as I said earlier I have 5 sons and have never spent one dime on college, one received an Academic scholarship, and the others were fully funded through sports. I tell you this not to brag but to let everyone know if your goal is to play college or professional ball, a working parent with the right approach and hard work can accomplish the goal.

To make a long story short and to get to my latest experience with trainers. First let me say my goal has always been that diversity in training is the key. We have done everything from Cross training to Dance, and Gymnastics. I even go so far as to take the boys to coaches for hitting and pitching lessons that I did not necessarily agree with the way they taught, simply to make them more supple mentally. After all baseball, but not just baseball all sports is about making changes and adapting to situations.

Anyway more to the point Two years ago I received a call from a State University. One of my sons at that time was a very high prospect and they wanted to do some studies on him. A little skeptical I agreed. The testing was out of this world type stuff. Everything you could imagine and more from sleeping to oxygen displacement while resting and working out. Through this I met three trainers all wanting to break into sports training. One of them agreed to train my sons for free two days a week. Each 6 months they were to go back and re-test and accumulate data over a long period of time at least two years. Still I was somewhat reluctant (the boys were already working out including practice three times a day) and at the same time eager to get started and see what the trainer could do.

First week, to my surprise this entailed 4 days of following my sons around games, practice and home workouts filming everything. The next step was body assessment. Third we scheduled an appointment with an Orthopedic Doctor/Surgeon. The purpose being to get another body type assessment and evaluate the trainer’s assessment and begin formulation of a workout plan. Through the evaluations we learned many things including what we had been doing right and things we had neglected or been doing wrong and how to recognize problem areas. For example the older of my two sons involved in this had severely over developed his chest and front delts (shoulders pulled forward hands turned back side facing forward), he also had some growth or bone build up on his elbow, and rotation in the shoulder was ok but needed work. My younger son who has been doing back, cuff, core and flexibility work to a higher degree from a younger age was much better in overall body symmetry, Posture, and shoulder rotation. Hip flexibility in both was nonexistent. I will add neither ever had any type of arm related problems from baseball other than occasional stiffness the day after pitching. Both boys nutrition was good they were only to eliminate three things sodas, French fries and potato chips, not too hard since they rarely consumed these.

Now we begin for the next year emphases was placed on rotation in the shoulders and hips, strengthening all stabilizing muscles, ankles knees and hips. And increasing muscle size in the area between the shoulder blades, rear delts and the glutes. The exercise program or programs were almost never entirely the same and I could not even if I wanted to tell you an exact routine. I will just say all body parts were hit in every workout with emphases placed on problem areas. The workouts were very high energy and the boys were totally exhausted after each. To conclude each workout stretching and a massage was performed by the trainer.

At the end of one year I would say I could not tell much difference in the way that they looked or preformed beyond any expectation I already had. Throwing speed increased 2 mph for each and hitting for avg and Hrs went up slightly. Not anything I would not already expect. The older son did have an increase in shoulder rotation of about 4 degrees.

Second year, everything was pretty much the same with an increase in workout time and intensity. This year however I starting to see some difference in their body appearance. Problem areas and posture much improved. Surprising things started to happen. Both lost 4-6 percent body fat while gaining weight younger son 15 yr old 6’1” 195 at 12% and older son 18 yr old 6’2” 225 at 13%. Shoulder rotation went up another 4 degrees in both directions. Vertical jump took a tremendous gain older son went from 28 to 34, younger went from 26 to 30. Throwing speeds went up another 2 mph for each older son 91-93 top out at 95, younger 89-91 top out at 93. Turning double plays and throwing out of position much improved quicker and sharper. Arm stiffness the day after pitching rarely happens now. The younger sons stamina during pitching greatly improved, he used to show signs of tiring after a long inning. Batting for avg. both broke .500 for the year with younger .535 and older at .547 amazingly both hit 12 hrs. Free weight Max reps went up and they had cut back on lifting due to working with trainer. Other things also during testing improved while I don’t understand it had something to do with the way their body was using oxygen more efficiently now.

Obviously I’m very happy now using a trainer we are into our 3rd year and throwing speed has again increased. I apologize for this being so long. What I would like to know is if anyone using a trainer, what results good or bad either players , parents or trainers. I have also found several trainers who would also love to take on this type of project. So it is quite possible if someone is interested there might be a trainer in your area more than willing to do it you just need to know how to find them.
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Z ZacksDad100+ posts
Good to hear-I don't post a lot either especially in this section. But I will give you my .02 on this subject as well as a couple of things you said.

First most "trainers" and high school coaches don't know anything at all about "performance".

As a rule of thumb the front of your body is for looks the rear of your body is for performance. Yet high school coaches have kids doing countless sets of chest, curls, and things like leg extensions and hack squats.

They also (like I read someone else posted) have kids doing sets of 15-30 reps? Why? It makes absolutely no sense. How many times do you swing a bat at one time? Once. How many times can you throw the ball at one time? Once. It is physically impossible to have the same speed on the 15th rep as the first rep. So why would you train this way-to slow your body down. That makes sense.

And not to give you a hard time, want to know why your kids have no hip flexibility? I will tell you. Either they don't squat, or if they do they either have incorrect form or don't squat low enough. And contrary to popular belief by "trainers" squatting is not bad for your knees, incorrect form is. Most people squat down by unlocking their knees first when what you should do is unlock your hips first and sit back. I am 37 and have been squatting for a long time and have never had a knee problem.

Want to know why kids have elbow problems? It is because they don't work the 3rd head of the tricep. If they do triceps (which most don't-they only do chest) they do bodybuilding type exercises for the 2 lazy heads of the tricep. In addition usually there is a great muscular imbalance between the bicep and the tricep. The only way the 3rd head can be worked is with some type of rolling tricep extension.

Your kids lifts went up by training less probably because they were overtraining to begin with. In addition your bodies hormone levels drop considerably after an hour of constant training-so anything above this really is a waste of time.
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
And contrary to popular belief by "trainers" squatting is not bad for your knees, incorrect form is.


You know I have never heard anybody actually say that squatting was bad for your knees. But I have heard many talk about how people say that Wink


Probably because you don't spend enough time in the gym Wink

Go to any "commercial" gym and ask trainers what they do for legs (most will say leg press, lunges, hack squat, etc). And if they should say squats ask them to demonstrate. What you will find 99% of the time is they will squat down which will cause the knees to shoot forward and place an enormous amount of stress on the knees. In addition they will probably only go a 1/4 or half way down, which once again puts all the stress on the front part of the legs and the knees instead of it being on your a.. and hamstrings.
Last edited by ZacksDad
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
Probably because you don't spend enough time in the gym Wink


I work in a fitness center Wink

A lot of the time I spend in an exercise environment, though, is spent in an athletic environment.

quote:
In addition they will probably only go a 1/4 or half way down, which once again puts all the stress on the front part of the legs and the knees instead of it being on your a.. and hamstrings.


Research disagrees with your comment. Squats do not work the hamstrings even during a full squat. The exercise works the quadriceps and the adductor muscle groups, but minimal hamstring. Many people do just exercises to work the front side which leads to a muscle imbalance which especially in female athletes can increase the risk of ACL injury.
Last edited by Bulldog 19
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
Probably because you don't spend enough time in the gym Wink


I work in a fitness center Wink

A lot of the time I spend in an exercise environment, though, is spent in an athletic environment.

quote:
In addition they will probably only go a 1/4 or half way down, which once again puts all the stress on the front part of the legs and the knees instead of it being on your a.. and hamstrings.


Research disagrees with your comment. Squats do not work the hamstrings even during a full squat. The exercise works the quadriceps and the adductor muscle groups, but minimal hamstring. Many people do just exercises to work the front side which leads to a muscle imbalance which especially in female athletes can increase the risk of ACL injury.


Whatever-I worked about 5 years in a couple of gyms as well. You are the typical employee of a fitness center. What research are you looking at? Research done by someone who knows nothing about athletic performace (In other words they have a hard time squatting off the toilet and run a 40 in 6 seconds).

The ONLY way it will work your quads more than your hamstrings and a.. is if you:


1. Stand with a close stance.
2. Squat straight down
3. Do no go to or below parallel.

I squat with a wide stance and sit back first then down. I have been squatting this way for probably 12 years and I squat a fair amount of weight. My quad development is minimal but I have a big a.. and thick, dense hamstrings.

Every piece of PERFORMANCE equipment (not leg extension machines or other fu-fu fitness center pieces of equipment) that is designed to build the squat focuses only on the hamstrings, glutes, and low back (ie glute ham raises, reverse hyperextension machine, box jumps, etc.).

Its fallacies like this why I don't post in this section.
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
Its fallacies like this why I don't post in this section.



Here's an abstract I had to write for my lower extremity evaluation class... Enjoy the reading..


quote:

Comfort P, Kasim P. Optimizing Squat Technique. Strength and Conditioning Journal. 2007; 29(6):10-13.

The authors wanted to summarize research that had been previously conducted regarding the “proper” technique for performing the squat exercise. They did not conduct any studies of their own, but rather referenced many other studies to emphasize the validity of the information provided.
The article starts out disproving the popular belief that the squat exercise is harmful to the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL). It is found that open chain exercises such as the leg extension cause more anterior tibial translation and therefore places more strain on the ACL than the squat. It is noted that the posterior cruciate ligament actually receives more force as knee flexion increases in squats, but still not to the extent of the force during knee extension. The deeper squat that is performed is going to lead to more anterior displacement however that displacement is decreased if the knees are restricted from going anterior to the toes. Restricting the forward movement of the knees does have its disadvantages such as causing forward lean which can cause increased force on the hips and lower back.
There are many factors that can influence how deep an athlete should squat. Athletes with Patello-Femoral Joint pain or with Tibio-Femoral Joint pain may be better off performing “half squats” with flexion of approximately 50 degrees because that is a more functional range. However, those athletes who perform cleans and snatches need to squat beyond 90 degrees to properly train the muscles for the “catch” phase of these exercises.
Research did not find that a specific placement of the feet affected many of the hamstrings or quadriceps muscles, however, using a feet width wider than shoulder width stance did activate the adductor longus. This could be beneficial by increasing the performance of the lift. The hamstrings are largely left out during the squat exercise therefore it is important that the athlete perform exercises specifically for the hamstrings as well to maintain muscle balance. The straight-leg dead lift and leg curls are two exercises that would ideally be included so that the muscles are worked at both the knee and the hip joints.
The squat exercise is a crucial exercise for all athletes to perform as a part of their strength and conditioning routine. The authors for this article touched on several factors that can cause people to avoid squat and also on what needs to be done to best perform the activity for full benefit. Unfortunately, I believe this article leaves much to be desired. There is little depth to this article and I believe that reading this article without any prior knowledge is not really of much use. There are numerous references, however, so if a reader wants to read more he or she can do so. Also, the authors used data as a part of the article that do not mean very much to me. A better explanation of the data would have been useful to fully understand how the different forces and masses effect the joint during the various exercises.
I consider squat to be core requirement for any athletic strength and conditioning program that cannot be replaced with any other exercise. However, when done incorrectly, this exercise can lead to injury that must be avoided. Keeping the knee from tracking forward of the toes is important because it can translate onto the court or field where it is important to stay aligned and not allow the knee to go forward. One issue that is mentioned is that this restriction can lead to increased lumbar flexion, but if the athletic “locks in” the lower back then this is not a problem. Also, the article mentions the foot position and I think an important point is that the feet should be positioned like they would be during competition. Many teach toe-in or toes straight and it really does not make sense because there are not any sports where the participant is going to have his or her toes like that. Another topic the article touches on is the lack of hamstring involvement during the squat exercise. It is important for there to be a balance between the strength of the hamstrings and the strength of the quadriceps. If an athlete only does quadriceps exercises, it is going to open up potential for ACL injury due to muscle imbalance. This can be corrected by including exercises such as the straight-leg dead lift and the leg curls in order to work the hamstrings.
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
quote:
Here's an abstract I had to write for my lower extremity evaluation class... Enjoy the reading..


Back at you

http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles.htm

Take your pick. Written by a 50 yr old that squats 1000-has world class athletes that come from all over to train with him-not just weighlifters, olypians, football players, etc.

Real world-not written by some phd taking a handful of "normal" people squatting who have no idea what they are doing or what they are talking about.

Want to read something written by people that actually know what they are talking about? Read some of the russian books on weightraining, exploseiveness, etc.
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Well you have fun building body-builders. I'm gonna stick with preventing and rehabilitating athletes. I'm also going to continue using sources to back my information up that comes from PHD's, CSCS's, ATC's, etc rather than from one body builder.


You obviously didn't take the time to read ANY of the articles. There is no, nor has there ever been, a body builder workout at the gym I posted. Bodybuilders train slow-not explosive (you know the explosiveness that comes from your core and posterior chain and doing exercies like squats and box jumps-oh that's right squats work the quads).

NFL players, MLB players, MLS s****r players, olympic sprinters, shot putters, discus throwers, etc. People come all the way from Europe, Asia, etc to train here.

But thats right, don't read anything and be open minded which is why again, for the most part high school and college weight training is a joke. It's not coached by an athlete-but is instead coached by someone with a piece of paper on the wall.
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
(you know the explosiveness that comes from your core and posterior chain and doing exercies like squats and box jumps-oh that's right squats work the quads).


Simple body mechanics.


quote:
You obviously didn't take the time to read ANY of the articles.


Actually I read several of them. None of them that I saw even try to contradict what I was saying.

quote:
I squat with a wide stance and sit back first then down.


That isn't an athletic squat.
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
(you know the explosiveness that comes from your core and posterior chain and doing exercies like squats and box jumps-oh that's right squats work the quads).


Simple body mechanics.


quote:
You obviously didn't take the time to read ANY of the articles.


Actually I read several of them. None of them that I saw even try to contradict what I was saying.

quote:
I squat with a wide stance and sit back first then down.


That isn't an athletic squat.


Simple body mechanics-yeah right.

If you read so many did you learn anything?

Funny that isn't an athletic squat. Wonder what your definition is. Wonder how much you squat? What's your verticle? What do you run the 40 in? What about a mile? How many pushups can you do? What about dips, chinups?

Difference probably between me and you is you are what I refer to as a "usetocould". You know when you talk to people you always say what you "use to could do".

Well I do.
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
Could you please give me one example of an athletic movement where you have a wide stance and have knee and hip flexion along with external rotation of both the femur and the tibia?

quote:
Wonder how much you squat? What's your verticle? What do you run the 40 in? What about a mile? How many pushups can you do? What about dips, chinups?


Not very good. I never had much of that kind of ability. I was an average weight lifter.. nothing spectacular.

While some of my knowledge comes from my experiences in high school, much of it comes from my classes that I am taking or have taken.
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Could you please give me one example of an athletic movement where you have a wide stance and have knee and hip flexion along with external rotation of both the femur and the tibia?

quote:
Wonder how much you squat? What's your verticle? What do you run the 40 in? What about a mile? How many pushups can you do? What about dips, chinups?


Not very good. I never had much of that kind of ability. I was an average weight lifter.. nothing spectacular.

While some of my knowledge comes from my experiences in high school, much of it comes from my classes that I am taking or have taken.


So let me get this straight.....

You "know" what works yet you aren't an athlete-but you learned a lot in high school (from the idiots that do things like teach kids to bench every other day and do a lot of reps) and "classes" you've taken?

Once again, it is things like this why we are so far behind.

Yeah I'm done with this thread....
DC Diablo con Huevos500+ posts
Zacks- No offense, but you sound like a disgruntled guy, who looks at himself in the mirror every day and is still ticked off that all he has is a high school education....

--------------------------------------------------

The function of the hamstring muscles is to extend the hip and flex the knee???

I would think the function of the Quads, as a whole, would be to extend the knee (straighten knee)???

Do squats do either/both/neither of these??
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
Zacks- No offense, but you sound like a disgruntled guy, who looks at himself in the mirror every day and is still ticked off that all he has is a high school education....

--------------------------------------------------

The function of the hamstring muscles is to extend the hip and flex the knee???

I would think the function of the Quads, as a whole, would be to extend the knee (straighten knee)???

Do squats do either/both/neither of these??


No offense taken.....

Only thing I am disgruntled about is the people in the industry that aren't, and have never been, athletes "teaching" the youth of America how to be better athletes.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
Strik3:

What great post. (barring the arguing what a squat is/does) Your son's are lucky to have this opportunity. Great stuff!

Actually I think HS baseball coaches know a lot more than you give them credit for these days. I believe more and more understand the importance of dynamic workouts. The problem is they don't have the time train their kids, they can help, but that is about it. This type of work is the responsibility of the kids (and parents).. some get is most don’t. The problem lies in the football/body building approach found in HS and gyms around the country.

Your post also points out the long-term view that must be taken when starting these types of programs. It takes years not months.

Thanks again for the information.
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
Only thing I am disgruntled about is the people in the industry that aren't, and have never been, athletes "teaching" the youth of America how to be better athletes.


I would imagine most strength and conditioning coaches have experience being an athlete. They may not have been All-Americans, but athletic experience is athletic experience.

quote:
The problem lies in the football/body building approach found in HS and gyms around the country.


If football teams are using body-building approaches to strength and conditioning, they are doing it wrong as well. Body-building and athletic strength and conditioning are two completely different things.
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
[QUOTE]
I would imagine most strength and conditioning coaches have experience being an athlete. They may not have been All-Americans, but athletic experience is athletic experience.

If football teams are using body-building approaches to strength and conditioning, they are doing it wrong as well. Body-building and athletic strength and conditioning are two completely different things.


Here we go again.

Yeah they have the same "athletic" experience that they are teaching-which 90% of the time is wrong, makes no sense, and serves no purpose. And no athletic experience is not athletic experience.

And I don't understand your second statement. Earlier you told me a wide stance squat wasn't "athletic" yet above you state body building training is incorrect. So you shouldn't squat with a wider stance, you shouldn't squat like a body builder (closed stance), how should you squat-or should you just do leg presses?

That's great and what the American dream is-go to college get a degree in what you love-and go get a job in that field. I am ALL for that. But did you ever consider, what you are taught in a college classroom about being a better athlete, could be mostly incorrect and actually detrimental?

Pick up a book called Supertraining by Mel Siff.
DC Diablo con Huevos500+ posts
ZacksDad-

How many upper level courses in college do you think are pure lecture where you "sit in a classroom" and nothing is done "hands on" ?? That statement is so outdated...

Zacks.. I get your point of "Ptrainers" out there teaching this or that and don't have a clue, sometimes, what they are talking about... they passed some b.s. training certification deal and now feel they know it all... BUT there are plenty of guys out there who spent 4-8 years in college researching and learning from the best.. then are now members of highly valued organizations who can help a lot of people.. ACSM, NSCA, Cooper's, etc... don't throw everyone under the same umbrella... just because someone played a sport or was a good athlete, DOES NOT mean they are going to be a good teacher of what they "did" or "can do"... you don't teach people how to do a chinup by saying "hey, watch me do 30 chinups."

but you have got to be level headed and realize you never had to be a great athlete/lifter to teach...
Coach Weiss for New England never played the game of football.... Bobby Cox for Atlanta never had a career in the "Bigs", but show me a mgr who won about 14 divisional titles in a row like he did that has big league experience...

the bottom line, is if you are gonna "teach" anything.. always be a student of it and never stop reading current "research" on that...

I know plenty of guys who can squat the house but can't do a single-leg squat to save their life... who's stronger?

just cuz a guy can do 445 chinups in an hour or over 3,000 pushups in an hour doesnt mean he is the strongest or best coach to teach that... the ability to do those feats is the cross between dedication and a gift from God... you can't train everyone to run a sub 4.5 forty... some of it is physiology of body makeup...

I mean seriously, how in the world did the "bench press" of all things become the marker for the judge of how strong we are???

who is stronger, the guy who bench presses more than 400 lbs or the guy who does 100 pushups nonstop? Guy who can squat 500 plus or the guy who can do 10 perfect, full single-leg pistol squats with just his bodyweight?

yeah, yeah, i know.. discussing/comparing maximal strength, muscular strength, endurance and balance... surly you get my point....

the guy who can bench press 1,005 pounds... what is he going to use that strength for in the real world? when do you really need to have that maximal horizontal push strength over say a vertical push??

JMO though....
Last edited by Diablo con Huevos
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
Diablo I totally understand what you are saying.

But, with regards to Weiss and Cox, I think you are comparing apples and oranges. A pt is suppose to instruct you on how to do this or that, whether it's squat, run, etc and what to do to improve said event. I doubt Cox gets out there and tells Chipper how to be a better hitter. That's what he has Pendleton for. Cox leads the team, tries to get the players to play up to their ability, and share the vision of winning. None of this has to do with Cox making the players PHYSICALLY better-mentally yes-emotionally yes-PHYSICALLY no.

And just like the op freely admits, he never saw the need for a trainer because he trained them and thought everything was fine. Where do you think he got the "education" to train them? Through the mainstream "knowledge" that floats around here in the US, either in books, classrooms, or through a "personal trainer". Now the great thing about this story is, he found a group that obviously knew what they were doing. There are some out there, but on the whole the pt industry is a joke.

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