Phillies Stealing Signs?

Here come the plunks!

I'm not judging one way or the other, but...........

Would anyone consider it illegal to use binoculars in order to pick up a catchers tendencies? From the dugout, the angle prohibits you from a full frontal view of a catcher, the bullpen would allow it if magnified and it would be the best seat off the field. Opposite of the view of a pitcher.

Logic says the pitcher gives away 'keys" in regard to what he's throwing but I would guess that the guy at the other end could also have some subconscious tendencies.

It's either "cheating" or "detailed scouting". One of which is illegal and the other may be what separates winners from losers.

I'm struggling to figure out how the signs get from the bullpen to the batter before the pitch is thrown. Unless there are electronics involved, I don't get it.

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quote:

Originally posted by OnWabana:
I'm struggling to figure out how the signs get from the bullpen to the batter before the pitch is thrown. Unless there are electronics involved, I don't get it.

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The Yankees, being the Yankees, have nuclear micro-chips embedded in the a$$ of their players that receives messages from the evil empires headquarters. Mind you the bug is planted on the cheek opposite the wallet because the all the zeros on the bills blocks the signal

Texiera must have finally moved his wallet to the other pocket then!

The latest response I have seen from the Phillies is that they were using the binoculars to study how THEIR catcher was setting up on each pitch---Is that cheating?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
The latest response I have seen from the Phillies is that they were using the binoculars to study how THEIR catcher was setting up on each pitch---Is that cheating?

Well since there is evidence that the binoculars were used while the Phillies were on offense, it wouldn't be cheating, I guess, but it would be really stupid.

What would it show...that their catcher was setup on the bench in the dugout eating sunflower seeds?

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:

quote:

Originally posted by OnWabana:
I'm struggling to figure out how the signs get from the bullpen to the batter before the pitch is thrown. Unless there are electronics involved, I don't get it.

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The Yankees, being the Yankees, have nuclear micro-chips embedded in the a$$ of their players that receives messages from the evil empires headquarters. Mind you the bug is planted on the cheek opposite the wallet because the all the zeros on the bills blocks the signal

I wonder how they disable them when they're traded.

Jimmy

Your response is even more stupid---the report is that they used binoulcars but nowhere did it say how long and watching what team---I like the Phillies explanation---

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Jimmy

Your response is even more stupid---the report is that they used binoulcars but nowhere did it say how long and watching what team---I like the Phillies explanation---

"The" report? As in just one?

Really???

My, oh my.

If I had read just one version of the story I may have agreed with you.

But even from the ONE report you apparently read:

"A Foxsports.com report said video from the FSN Rocky Mountain telecast showed Billmeyer using binoculars during the top of the second inning. It also said it showed Shane Victorino using the bullpen phone in the dugout."

Now then, top of the second...who is on defense? The home team? Where is the game being played? Denver?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

JIMMY ZERO

How do you know what I "apparently" read?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
JIMMY ZERO

How do you know what I "apparently" read?

Well, let's see. There was only one report listed in this thread. You referred to "the" report. I guessed. If I was wrong, I apologize. It has no bearing on the facts, which you chose to ignore in your effort to absolve the Phillies.

Really, TWhit...watching their own catcher while using the binoculars when they were of offense? And you bought it.

What better way to divert attention from such a boneheaded post than challenge others.

Here's a handy guide for future reference:

Top of the inning, visitors are at bat.
Bottom of the inning, home team is at bat.

You can always write down and carry it with you.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
---I like the Phillies explanation---

TR I have a great deal for you on some beach front property out here in Arizona...

BOF

You and Jimmy Zero might want to hook up--You guys cannot read--I noted that they were watching their catcher--that was their explanation--is that cheating?--I do not think so--whatever else may have been happening has not been proven --just accusations---

By the way BOF there are some nice lakefront properties in Arizona that equal "beachfront" properties

BOF--you have a real estate license to sell property in Arizona--?

Another thread destroyed by TR and TR-needlers.

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quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
BOF

You and Jimmy Zero might want to hook up--You guys cannot read--I noted that they were watching their catcher--that was their explanation--is that cheating?

The video shows they were using the binoculars while they were on offense. Tell me TWhit, what would their own catcher be doing at that time that they would be so interested in?

And no, their explanation is not called cheating...it's called lying.

Really the whole question boils down to " Should binoculars, telescopes, or for that matter, deer rifle scopes be allowed to be used by a team on the field since there is potential for cheating". Personally I think you should study your catchers tendencies on video tape just like all the other things that are studied between games. Therefore, just ban all this type of equipment from the field, bullpens or dugouts.

Isn't the responsibility to conceal signals owned by the team using the signals???

I mean, I don't think its a burglar or anyone else's responsibility to limit the tools they may use to break in and rob my home; responsibility of my home security falls upon me, the owner.

I don't care what's bush or an unwritten rule. If a team uses secret signals, they own the responsibility to conceal them...

Brian what type of savage world do you live in?

BTW-

I've heard of times in many sports where a team will pick up a player for the only to learn about the old team, what's the difference? In pro sports the difference between first and last hinges largely on organizational practices. Dog eat dog, and personally I'd rather be chewing on a piece of meat than being chewed on. So often the PC version is spoken from groups like ours but bottom line as "fans" we really don't live within the realm of the sport. We are self anointed experts and insiders, but in reality we are only nothing more than a spectator, who's opinion counts as nothing to the team. If we only knew the "stays in the clubhouse" information many "goody-two-shoes" would probably have second thoughts about little Johnny's dream of being a pro athlete.

None the less, it's still my passion, Americas pastime, and also one of the most successful businesses in the world. You don't get to the top playing "nice". The "competitive attitude" is shared from top to bottom in an organization. We cheer the athlete who gives 110%, and we bad-mouth business executives who show the same attitude.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
Really the whole question boils down to " Should binoculars, telescopes, or for that matter, deer rifle scopes be allowed to be used by a team on the field since there is potential for cheating". Personally I think you should study your catchers tendencies on video tape just like all the other things that are studied between games. Therefore, just ban all this type of equipment from the field, bullpens or dugouts.

TB, so what your saying is that it's ok to have 2nd hand data (video) but not not first hand (visual). Don't coaches already adjust to situations during games by watching it unfold? In most sports messages from various vantage points are relayed during events. Baseball which plays on the largest footprint frowns upon it. Does anyone really think that a catcher calling a fastball away is going to make it to the batters ear before the pitch is thrown? As long as your eyes in the sky are not affecting the next pitch, IMO, it is nothing more that real time scouting.

Seems to me that the core issue is keeping the technology from becoming the primary competition, right?

I personally WANT to see players and coaches trying to steal the signs during the game with their naked eye. That's a big part of what makes the "chess-game" aspect of baseball kind of interesting. As long as the people on the field are left to their own devices, it seems that its part of taxing their overall skills while they're playing the game.

Watching videos before the game seems like a legit part of preparation as well. (to me)

But once the game starts, I think the players and coaches should be isolated from any kind of outside input or "spying" aids. That just keeps the whole thing bounded.

Stealing signs isn't cheating or bush league. If you can do it and it's working, then the other team needs to do a better job hiding it.

It's no different than when teams collect data for detailed scouting reports on players and pitchers know their tendencies and vise-versa.

This whole thing boils down to a directive that was sent out by MLB to all clubs prior to the season reiterating that "no equipment" shall be used in efforts to decipher other team's signs. The use of binoculars violates this directive.

Not to mention lying in the face of video evidence; i.e., that the bullpen coach was using the binocs when the Rockies were up and the Phillies said they were only using it to observe their own catcher. Some still consider lying wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:
But once the game starts, I think the players and coaches should be isolated from any kind of outside input or "spying" aids. That just keeps the whole thing bounded.

Besides the "Newlywed Game" what other sport uses a "sound proof booth" to isolate participants from utilizing "real time" data? You can bet your life that there's a Yankee wearing a Red Sox hat sitting above the Sox bullpen, next to the Sox dugout and probably even dating a Sox executives daughter . The phrase "it's only a game" went away when the dotted lines were signed. The MLB warnings are nothing more than window dressing a fear that someone came up with. JMO, reality check please.

However, I did see this very suspicious woman looking toward the infield from the RF bleachers while whispering something behind the fan to her husband who was talking into his shoe. At a closer look I saw they were both wearing decoder rings. I asked their names, he said "Max", the sultry woman said..."call me 99"

Binoculars in the bullpen seems difficult to conceal. Fans in center field (in the old days), team member in the scoreboard, those are clever.

What about TV? I assume TV is prohibited in the dugout and the bullpen? Couldn't someone sit in the clubhouse and watch TV and relay the signs?

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
Couldn't someone sit in the clubhouse and watch TV and relay the signs?

IMO, the only sign that could be used "real time" is a runner on second base relaying signals to the batter. All the other options are "old news" by the time a batter could get them. At the same time what if the scoundrel who's "stealing" signs is incorrect? Now look who's laughing, and who's walking back to the dugout tail between his legs.

I always told my kids to keep an eye on their valuables because if they're stolen it's their own fault. Then again maybe professional sports plays by a higher sense of ethics than most.........now that's funny

In most cases of stealing signs from the bullpen, a phone call or something like that isn't used. All it takes is for the sign thief in the bullpen to move to a certain spot when its a breaking ball or hang a towel on a fence, or any number of other visual signs that can be seen from the batters box. I agree its fine to steal signs with the naked eye, just don't use other equipment. Pitchers can cure sign stealing by agreeing with his catcher to come up and in with a fastball on the next breaking ball sign. This is legit too.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
All it takes is for the sign thief in the bullpen to move to a certain spot when its a breaking ball or hang a towel on a fence, or any number of other visual signs that can be seen from the batters box.

Imagine sitting in the bullpen 350 ft from the plate with your "spy glasses" fixed on the catchers crotch. There's the sign, now quickly send the message to your flagman, then he quickly has to send the right signal to the batter 350 ft away, and the batter has to adjust to the sign. In the mean time the ump is calling a 3rd strike and the batter tips his hat to his spotters as he walks to the bench. IMO...Ain't happinin'

Hanley last night.

It has happened throughout baseball history. There's a whole book on the Giants 1951 culminating in Bobby Thomson's pennant winning HR in which the Giants gave signals in this very way. The guy with the glasses doesn't have to give the signal to anyone else. He just changes location himself or moves a towel hanging on the fence. There are several other baseball books that have other stories of this very kind of cheating.