http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyQ5kmdup40
and another with pitching
UC Berkley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Ms2faHxns&feature=related
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Quincy -
The first youtube is the more recent info/addition to the Adair book.
The way the swing "beginning' is described is a little misleading when the commentator says "the brain tells the swing to begin at .165 sec before contact".
In reality, the swing has been underway since well before release of the pitch when the dance with the pitcher which involves the beginning of the inward turn interrupting the rhythmic preswing activity at some point sometimes described as when he shows you his backside, you show him yours.
Here is one way to think about it when looking at video. An average 90 mph fastball goes from hand to contact in just over 12 frames of typical 30 fps video and is in the catcher's mitt a about 13 frames if the batter misses.
A fastball slows down about 7 mph from release to mitt, so the ball travels more feet per frame early and less later.
Out of hand velocity of the average 90 mph heater is then more like mid nineties at release.
At an average of 90 mph, then the ball would go about 4.5 ft in each of the 12 frames from release to contact, but maybe it's more like 5 feet for the first few frames and four for the last few.
So the swing starts way before release in a generic way that is already somewhat adjusted depending on the plan (intentional or not) that the hitter has.
100msec/3 frames/15 ft for image of ball to get to brain.
75 msec/2.5+frames/10ft for brain to predict location (in/out/up/down/depth) of contact
60msec/2frames/9ft to decide/pick matching program to execute
this is when "GO" is sent from brain, but modifications and nogo/abort/check swing is still possible after this while attempts at significant changes in a swing that proceeds means more and more of an emergency swing.
So this "GO" happens about 4.5 frames before contact, maybe with ball about 20 ft out.
When you look at MLB types, they seem to be able to check the swing until about 3.5 frames out.
The bathead then fires in the equivalent of a 2D swing plane to contact over these last 15 or so feet.
The first youtube is the more recent info/addition to the Adair book.
The way the swing "beginning' is described is a little misleading when the commentator says "the brain tells the swing to begin at .165 sec before contact".
In reality, the swing has been underway since well before release of the pitch when the dance with the pitcher which involves the beginning of the inward turn interrupting the rhythmic preswing activity at some point sometimes described as when he shows you his backside, you show him yours.
Here is one way to think about it when looking at video. An average 90 mph fastball goes from hand to contact in just over 12 frames of typical 30 fps video and is in the catcher's mitt a about 13 frames if the batter misses.
A fastball slows down about 7 mph from release to mitt, so the ball travels more feet per frame early and less later.
Out of hand velocity of the average 90 mph heater is then more like mid nineties at release.
At an average of 90 mph, then the ball would go about 4.5 ft in each of the 12 frames from release to contact, but maybe it's more like 5 feet for the first few frames and four for the last few.
So the swing starts way before release in a generic way that is already somewhat adjusted depending on the plan (intentional or not) that the hitter has.
100msec/3 frames/15 ft for image of ball to get to brain.
75 msec/2.5+frames/10ft for brain to predict location (in/out/up/down/depth) of contact
60msec/2frames/9ft to decide/pick matching program to execute
this is when "GO" is sent from brain, but modifications and nogo/abort/check swing is still possible after this while attempts at significant changes in a swing that proceeds means more and more of an emergency swing.
So this "GO" happens about 4.5 frames before contact, maybe with ball about 20 ft out.
When you look at MLB types, they seem to be able to check the swing until about 3.5 frames out.
The bathead then fires in the equivalent of a 2D swing plane to contact over these last 15 or so feet.
The second one is the typical thing that physics types like which is bat motion and ball motion and collision, but virtually nothing about how that nasty hard to control body actually does its thing.
Did you notice the difference in hands position at wrists uncocking between the pros and college players?
College players uncock the wrists further forward thus swinging later than the pros.
College players uncock the wrists further forward thus swinging later than the pros.
Good wrist observation.
As in golf, the thing that results in ("CAUSES") the wrists to stay coked longer/UNHINGE (aDduct) later is the fact that the mechanics coil the torso/store energy longer, what is described in golf as "x-factor stretch" (additional quick coil) in the downswing.
Mechanics that create this late stretch and fire are what are responsible for "maintaining the hinge angle", NOT trying to hold the angle/****/aBduction in the wrist.
Unhinging the wrist early is more of a problem in golf where the straight lead arm and the long club shaft with mass right at end tend to result in the center of mass of the club getting out too early which interrupts coil prematurely (and causes loss of power as well as forcing a swing plane that cuts/slices across the ball.
The requirement in MLB hitting is different. You need a quick swing that can be adjusted to match pitch location late to maximize "read time".
This is done by a running start consisting of turning the bathead by apllying torque on the handle synched with the opening of the front leg and hips as you start to coil the body going into toe touch.
Then as a result of the "GO" decision, the handle torque and hips firing creates a controlled direction and timing of the coil/stretch and fire to match the anticip[ated contact location.
The runnuing start by torquing the handle gets the bat turning WITHOUT prematurely fring the bathead out of the radius of the handpath.
In fact, this torquing of the handle creates and controls addtional coil (analagouds to x-factor stretch in the downswing in golf) which also then permits firing the bathead just when the coil of the torso reverses which forces the stored energy to turn the bathead, Not be wasted in overturning the body/hips.
So in spite of the fact that you start the swing early including torquing the handle into toe touch, the lead wrist does not unhinge until near contact.
Furthermore, often the top hand wrist has still not unccoked/aDducted at contact as WIlliams observed which is a sign that handle torque is still being applied up until contact as opposed to the hands being passively pulled through by the accelerating bathead.
As in golf, the thing that results in ("CAUSES") the wrists to stay coked longer/UNHINGE (aDduct) later is the fact that the mechanics coil the torso/store energy longer, what is described in golf as "x-factor stretch" (additional quick coil) in the downswing.
Mechanics that create this late stretch and fire are what are responsible for "maintaining the hinge angle", NOT trying to hold the angle/****/aBduction in the wrist.
Unhinging the wrist early is more of a problem in golf where the straight lead arm and the long club shaft with mass right at end tend to result in the center of mass of the club getting out too early which interrupts coil prematurely (and causes loss of power as well as forcing a swing plane that cuts/slices across the ball.
The requirement in MLB hitting is different. You need a quick swing that can be adjusted to match pitch location late to maximize "read time".
This is done by a running start consisting of turning the bathead by apllying torque on the handle synched with the opening of the front leg and hips as you start to coil the body going into toe touch.
Then as a result of the "GO" decision, the handle torque and hips firing creates a controlled direction and timing of the coil/stretch and fire to match the anticip[ated contact location.
The runnuing start by torquing the handle gets the bat turning WITHOUT prematurely fring the bathead out of the radius of the handpath.
In fact, this torquing of the handle creates and controls addtional coil (analagouds to x-factor stretch in the downswing in golf) which also then permits firing the bathead just when the coil of the torso reverses which forces the stored energy to turn the bathead, Not be wasted in overturning the body/hips.
So in spite of the fact that you start the swing early including torquing the handle into toe touch, the lead wrist does not unhinge until near contact.
Furthermore, often the top hand wrist has still not unccoked/aDducted at contact as WIlliams observed which is a sign that handle torque is still being applied up until contact as opposed to the hands being passively pulled through by the accelerating bathead.
Babe Ruth said that swinging a bat is the same as swinging a golf club, but the swing has the stride.
Babe's swing was a side side hand grip through contact.
Babe played for 22 seasons.
One as a draw card of only 25 games at 40 years old.
His first five seasons as a pitcher.
Thus in his 16 years as a full time player in the outfield he hit 688 home runs and a lifetime batting average of .342.
I would hope that you would pardon me for having used this swing style personally and for endorsing this swing style over the other newer versions that have come into popularity.
Babe's swing was a side side hand grip through contact.
Babe played for 22 seasons.
One as a draw card of only 25 games at 40 years old.
His first five seasons as a pitcher.
Thus in his 16 years as a full time player in the outfield he hit 688 home runs and a lifetime batting average of .342.
I would hope that you would pardon me for having used this swing style personally and for endorsing this swing style over the other newer versions that have come into popularity.
quote:As in golf, the thing that results in ("CAUSES") the wrists to stay coked longer/UNHINGE (aDduct) later is the fact that the mechanics coil the torso/store energy longer, what is described in golf as "x-factor stretch" (additional quick coil) in the downswing.
Mechanics that create this late stretch and fire are what are responsible for "maintaining the hinge angle", NOT trying to hold the angle/****/aBduction in the wrist.
Tom, great explanation.....
To tell a hitter to hold the hinge angle just isn't effective.....It simply doesn't work!
Late loading will do it, though!
BD-
This fits with Mankin's point I linked in another thread:
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/output/19418.html
Mankin: "There are many coaches who still teach their batters “not to release the bat-head too soon, – keep it back until the hands extend.” However, most coaches that have studied the swings of the best hitters and understand rotational transfer principles, know that to attain maximum bat speed, the bat-head must accelerate around the swing plane right from initiation – this means first back toward the catcher."
And this also fits with Richard's description of:
"immediate launch and spend" as part of the "GO".
The "launch and spend" controls the finish of the stretch and the synch of fire by coiling/storing longer and releasing quicker/better matched to pitch location.
This fits with Mankin's point I linked in another thread:
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/output/19418.html
Mankin: "There are many coaches who still teach their batters “not to release the bat-head too soon, – keep it back until the hands extend.” However, most coaches that have studied the swings of the best hitters and understand rotational transfer principles, know that to attain maximum bat speed, the bat-head must accelerate around the swing plane right from initiation – this means first back toward the catcher."
And this also fits with Richard's description of:
"immediate launch and spend" as part of the "GO".
The "launch and spend" controls the finish of the stretch and the synch of fire by coiling/storing longer and releasing quicker/better matched to pitch location.
quote:to attain maximum bat speed, the bat-head must accelerate around the swing plane right from initiation
This is angular accelleration.
http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/physics/circ/node6.html
quote:when the dance with the pitcher which involves the beginning of the inward turn interrupting the rhythmic preswing
and in Hawaii, taught in the 1st grade
"75 msec/2.5+frames/10ft for brain to predict location"
***Robin to Batman firing the Batmobile
"60msec/2frames/9ft to decide/pick matching program to execute"
****Alfred, is that right??
Did you notice the difference in hands position at wrists uncocking between the pros and college players?
"College players uncock the wrists further forward thus swinging later than the pros."
AVERAGE COLLEGE HITTERS ROBIN
"running start consisting of turning the bathead by apllying torque on the handle synched"
****WHACKED
"addtional coil (analagouds to x-factor stretch in the downswing in golf)"***E=MC2
*********************************
Drive down to your local gas station or convenience store, grab a sixer, and review your playing days, NOT!!
Its not fun bashing, but sometimes required to bring back reality!! My goodness. What are you people striving for?
quote:What are you people striving for?
quote:Just consider this...are MLB hitters today better than MLB hitters 50 years ago, even with all the new training and teaching aids available? Not to mention diluted pitching, lower mound height, juiced balls....why aren't more hitters at .300 or higher? Why so many SO's and bad fundamentals? Are we too hung up on swing mechanics versus pitch recognition...I wish I knew that answer.
Might be the case that to make progress, we should take a step back. Archimedes principles are as relevant today as they were a few hundred years BC.
"Give me a lever and a place to stand, and I can move the Earth."
- Archimedes (c. 287 BC – c. 212 BC)
quote:"Give me a lever and a place to stand, and I can move the Earth."
- Archimedes (c. 287 BC – c. 212 BC)
I told Arch a million times not to exaggerate!
This is all very interesting stuff above...but what does it have to do with actually hitting a baseball?
be the ball be the ball be the ball
be the ball be the ball be the ball
The biggest thing that is shown is hand placement when the wrists fire or uncock.
Pros uncock in front of their bodies while college and high schoolers most often uncock with their hands much further forward.
The expressions 'keep your hands back' and 'extend your arms' are the usual suggested remedies.
The further back your wrists uncock into the zone, the longer the bat will be in the zone.
Pros uncock in front of their bodies while college and high schoolers most often uncock with their hands much further forward.
The expressions 'keep your hands back' and 'extend your arms' are the usual suggested remedies.
The further back your wrists uncock into the zone, the longer the bat will be in the zone.
quote:The further back your wrists uncock into the zone, the longer the bat will be in the zone.
What happens to the leverage if your hands are already uncocked at contact? Why **** them in the first place?
Leverage increases due to angular acceleration.
Forward hands waste that energy. The best part of their swing is in the follow through. You'll notice the 'power V' in the forward hands follow through rather than just into contact.
Forward hands waste that energy. The best part of their swing is in the follow through. You'll notice the 'power V' in the forward hands follow through rather than just into contact.
