Pitch Angle and Swing Attack Angle: Mound vs Flat vs Machine

Guess it's really all about the matter being able to make adjustments given a pitched ball can come from all kinds of heights and angles (e.g. side arm pitchers, submarine pitchers, types of pitches with various spins, etc), huh?

wrong thread 

Cap217 posted:

I started posting this idea in another thread but I think it deserves its own and I dont want to hijack the other one. 

 

I personally have been really focusing on hitting up on the ball.  I have naturally had a flat swing or slight up swing and this goes back to the days where I was told to HIT DOWN on the ball, even as a power hitter.  Never made sense and I struggled.  I fight with the zepp attack angle numbers because when my swing clearly shows up on video and zepp is telling me its -25' and the ball is going up I get frustrated.  So I try and change mechanics and swing plane and hands and shoulders and swing up.  I used to be a home run and power hitter but I dont have video of that far back so I have to assume my swing has changed over time.  

Here is why Im posting...  IEBSBL posted something interesting (in a different thread) about pitches coming off a mound and launch angles.  This got quickly dismissed because launch angles dont really have to do with pitch angle in theory because the angle is off the bat compared to the ground.  BUT, when I hit in a 70-80mph cage off a machine or a live pitcher not on a mound, the ball is coming in at a much less angle vs off a mound.  That in return changes what we do with the bat and swing plane which in return changes the launch angle.  I never considered this but it makes sense.  Maybe I do swing on the proper angle but I dont realize it because in training the ball is coming in flat or very slightly downward bc of gravity.  So I swing flatter to match that path.  

If I look at the zepp app and look at mike trouts swing from the side, his launch angle is matching the pitch angle.  The pitcher is sitting a bit in front of the mound, behind a screen, tossing at a slow speed.  This is creating a very dramatic pitch angle so Mike has to swing up to match it.  Im sure his subconscious tells him to match the pitch angle.  But in my videos from cage work the ball is coming in basically flat and my swing gets on plane and matches that angle.  

Make sense?  It makes it VERY hard to swing up on a ball that is coming in flat.  You are cutting the impact area by a large percentage because now you have only a small spot on the ball and a perfect timing to hit that ball up.  Unless you get on plane of a flat pitch with a flat swing and catch if just under the equator.  But at that swing you arent hitting home runs but fly outs without any real force.  

This must all have a huge impact on hitting and training without knowing it.  

 

I disagreed with a response in the other thread that pitch angle is not affected by a mound vs flat.  We have to be careful and keep all things equal here because distance to the plate, elevation, speed, pitcher height all play a role.  

I think that the shorter the distance, the less angle the ball comes in, then the speed matters too.  Again, we have to keep everything constant to discuss this.  

 

Mound = 10"

Pitcher = 6'

Speed = 90 mph

Sea Level

Distance = 60' 6"

Height it crosses the plate = 3'

Machine Style = Iron Mike (I dont know the release height on this)

Pitcher Arm Slot = This is hard but has to be constant

Pitcher Release Point Distance = The release distance is not 60' 6".  More like 55'.  So this now means the machine should be at 55' to be equal. 

 

Here are some facts from data that are interesting:

-In 1968 the mound was raised from 10" to 15" in the MLB and runs scored went to an all time low of about 19% less than the next year.  So even 5" have a great effect (but we dont know the real reason or if the correlates).  

-We know that the average pitch angle in the MLB is -7' and thats the pitch angle that is hit most. 

-If a pitch is released 6 feet above the ground and crosses the plate at the knees, it drops about 4 feet in .4 seconds, or around 10 feet/second. If it crosses at the letters, it drops about 2 feet in .4 seconds, or around 5 feet/second. So you can see that location makes a big difference.

 

Now we need to calculate the pitch angle of a 90 mph pitch off the mound from a 6' kid vs him throwing the same pitch from flat.  And a way to measure it.  Then we need to measure a 90 mph pitch from a machine and compare. 

Actually there is truth to this because simply put.  If the pitch crosses the plate at 3' then the height of the pitch release point matters a lot.  The higher the release, the more the descending angle.  An Iron Mike machine height is around 4-5' and a pitcher is 6'.  Now add the release point of the pitchers arm PLUS the 10" on the mound.  That shows that if the speed is constant then there is something to this.  

If the conclusion to this is that the 80 mph cage pitch angle is 2' but the 60 mph cage angle is 8' then it might make more sense to be practicing in the 60 mph cage to work on the proper fundamentals and swing path and attack angle to match pitch angle. 

With respect to the highlighted text, after 1968 (known as "The Year of the Pitcher"), the mound was lowered to 10" from 15". And run scoring went up.

BTW if you are using live pitch, the closer the pitcher is, the steeper the pitch angle will be.

so maybe if he pitches from 45 the angle will be similar as a pitch off the Mound is.

a machine pitch that Comes out of a 4 feet high machine might indeed be flatter, especially if it is up in the Zone (BTW I think People practice too many belly button high pitches anyway, the average MLB FB is like 2 feet off the ground or so).

ideally you probably would have higher set up pitching machines that release the ball at 6 feet but that is probably not feasible. in the end machine pitches will have some disadvantages, the biggest Problem isn't even pitch height but Timing.

however for most machines are the only way to get game like velocity at any Kind of consistency so they have their merits and they are needed. definitely better to hit off a machine, than inconsistent 50 mph rainbows.

Cap,

Are you looking to gain more exit velo when trying to match the angle of the pitch?  Or trying to make more consistent contact?  The reason I ask, is the spin rate off the bat (back spin) is dramatically going to affect the carry if looking for distance.

back spin is vastly overrated. it helps some but Nathan found out that backspin above 2000 rpm even hurts the distance because it adds some lift but also increases air drag. especially at higher exit velocities air drag becomes the biggest factor. 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...ont-go-for-backspin/

a little backspin is good but you should mostly go for highest exit velo at the right angle. 

I actually would try to hit knuckleballs, the backspin comes automatically if you hit a little below center. ted williams said that too. 

Dom, check this out:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/a-tale-of-two-dingers/

yes there is some effect of backspin but it is not really important. 

This sounds to me like your brain is getting in the way (no offense, but overthinking causes hitting issues).  Every pitcher is different and so would be all angles, speeds, release points, etc.  You should not be swinging up.  The bat angle needs to increase so that the barrel of the bat gets below where the ball is traveling to, then it's timing as to where the ball goes.  Machines are for timing, coordination, and mechanics similar to working off a tee.  No pitcher attempts to throw you a pitch 3 ft off the ground, that's a mistake (unless your knees are three ft off the ground).  Get a tee and work on hitting line drives  with the ball at the knees without dropping your hands.  What you used to do does not matter any more.  Get some video and a swing coach, make some progress

Here is why I am working on attack angle and swinging up. I blame it 100% on zepp. I hit the ball up, I hit line drives, I hit long hone runs.  Zepp still tells me I need to work in my attack angle. But when I compare my swing path, attack angle, ball pitch angle, it matches and I am happy in video. 

Here are screen shots of my swing in the zone. The line is the pitch angle and path. This is a 60 mph machine so that the ball does actually drop a speed it comes in. In faster machines, the path is a lot more flat. 

Obviously, the attack angle is not being read by Zepp correctly.  If your contact is consistent and you are getting the kind of carry that you want, I wouldn't worry about what zepp says the attack angle is.

I don't think you swing down, zepp has trouble to pick up some swings. re calibration can work but if you have pre swing movement or a bat tip zepp is having trouble.

My zepp picks my swing up well but I have a rather small and quiet load. Not sure if the zepp 2.0 or the blast or DK is better in that regard, that is definitely a flaw of the product.

However there are also people who think they swing up but they don't. when I got my zepp I was sure my swing was going up. when it showed me I was downhill I did think it was reading wrong but then I noticed that my swing would go up but that would happen after contact. I basically swung down and then after contact finished up but that follow through was what I was feeling). I corrected that with a ton of work.

but with you I don't think that is true for you.

In frames 5 & 6, compare where your hands are to frames 3 & 4 (use the yellow back drop as a point of reference).  Your hands and the zepp device are lower in 5 & 6.  I do not know if the zepp has bugs in it's software, that is possible.  You could contact their customer support for discussion.  If your current swing results in live game line drives and long home runs and you are happy with your results, who cares what zepp reports on the attach angle. 

Cap217 posted:

  

In photo 1, notice some things unrelated to attack angle:

- your front shoulder is higher than the back. That's backwards. This is probably causing most of the rearward upper torso lean in later pics.

- your rear forearm is more vertical (not good) than horizontal (preferred). This usually leads to bat drag, but in later frames, you are pushing your hands forward at the ball which offsets this.

In photo 2, we get to the attack angle issue:

- the rear elbow is not down at the level of the hip (note the rear elbow may not go down that far on high pitches, but this pitch seems like it's belt high).  This results in the hands being too high, therefore the bat head must chop down to get to the ball.  So, make sure the back elbow goes 3-4 inches lower to hip/belt level. (that's probably why they call this the 'hip slot' )

- this is probably causing at least some of the negative attack angles.

Since I can't see the bat in photo 3 and 4, and the techniques above suggest a downward cut, I would tend to side with the Zepp attack angle measurements.  Try a better camera that can clearly show the bat in these frames to be sure.