Pitch Counts

Hopperhop,
Good question.

As a pitcher's parent we were always concerned with pitch counts, regardless of any policy. I think a lot has to do with time of year, conditioning of pitcher, what type of pitches has he thrown, how many innings were thrown during the week and previous pitch count.
For us a safe pitch count in HS early on was give or take 50 with gradual increase towards the end of the year 90-100.

Two years ago my son was brought up to the varsity as a freshman at about the midpoint of the spring season. In his second varsity start he threw a 10 inning victory that he had thrown 137 pitches. To say the least I was thrilled about the performance but less enthused about the number of pitches. When you average it out he kept between the 12-15 pitch innings that coaches like to see, but it was the amount that really bothered me. When you throw 30-40 pitches to warm up, 6 pitches between innings X 10 and the 137 for the game that comes out to around 235 or so. That is way too many pitches for a 15 year old kid who is not done developing on a spring day. JMO
Thankfully he has never had any discomfort or arm problems of any kind. His arm did get some tightness this past summer when he attended 3 professional camps in 4 days, but nothing serious.

SeedThrower,

If you were so bothered by his pitch count why did'nt demand that your son not continue to pitch on that fine "spring day." I have done so in the past. At 15 years old,on a hot and humid summer day,deeper in the season with good mechanics being displayed, maybe 80 to 90 pitches. Maybe not.

Problems can develop over time from being overused. Just ask all the pitchers who develop arm problems in college,the minors or Kerry Woods of the Ccccccccubs. Hard for me to say the "C" word. Hard for me to understand as a father, how you can sit back and watch your son throw 235 pitches, plus foul balls and pitches missed while the other parents were telling you how well "little Johnnie" was piching today. Probably threw 250 or more pitches that day.
That is abusive.

SeedThrower,

It sounds to me like your son was overused and abused by being allowed to throw so many pitches as a 15 year old. You must remember this, while he came out of that game feeling healthy, there is a cumulative toll on a pitchers's arm and elbow that can rear it's ugly head down the road. Also, what do you really win when you pitch 10 innings as a 15 yr old? You've won one game, gotten some pats on the back but if you have a goal to go on and pitch at the next level you must protect your son and speak up and not allow any more 137+ pitched games. Good luck, you son sounds like he has quite a future before him.

PS. Last June, as a 16 yr old, my son underwent Tommy John surgery. He rarely had 100+ pitch counts, but stuff can happen. Be careful.

Isc,
I personally tape and keep a book on every game my son pitches, I don't miss a pitch and the tape will never lie. (Tell the Seahawks that)
I know my pitch counts are accurate because of the tape and because I don't small talk with other parents or fans. Yes foul balls are calculated, because afterall those were pitches.

I bit my tongue about this until the day before the season started last season. I told the coach that I was uncomfortable with my son throwing that many pitches and he said he would never intetionally hurt my son. He has other players keep pitch counts for their pitchers. You think small talk goes on in the stands? Think about what is going on on the bench when a kid isn't playing and he's got a pen in his hand. This coach is one of those that wants absolutely no parent involvment during the game. By the way, I have no problem with that. Last year my son was the workhorse and went over 100 pitches numerous times. I'm still not totally comfortable with that either, but at least it isn't 137. I finally had to have a meeting with the coach and vice principle right before this school year because my son didn't attend registration and the rumors started flying that he was transfering to the crosstown rival. I think the coach finally started to listen to my concerns when the vice principle was there. We will see what happens.
By the way, I have talked to numerous D1 coaches and pro scouts about this very subject and have heard numerous answers. I want to protect my son, but I also don't want to be labeled the idiot screaming parent, not that I care what other people say about me. I'm at the point now after talking with this coach about this subject of screaming because nothing else has worked.

Coaches: Please don't think that all parents are clueless or don't know anything. For the most part it has been us, the parents, who have been there nurturing, coaching and working with little Johnny to get him to this point where you now have the priveledge of working with him. Also remember that it is us parents who fund and get our kids where they are supposed to be. We will also be the ones who get to foot the bill when our sons get hurt and possibly unable to keep playing.

itsrosy,

It is definitely to bad that your son had to go through such surgery at such an early age(or at any age really) and I hope that his recovery is going well. Just for educational purposes, did the doctors say that if he had done something differently in his pitching or throwing that he would not have had this problem or is it like some types of heart disease or cancer that it was just there (a congenital or genetic condition) and there is nothing that could have made a difference.

This is my twisted theory:

Do not just count pitches. Try to use a, “weighted pitch count”
Big innings are no doubt the pitchers worst enemy.
When a pitcher hits 22 pitches in one inning- For the rest of the game every throw counts as 2 to 2.5 throws.
Therefore, pitchers might come out earlier than what there normal game count is.
Pitchers fatigue fast mentally and physically in big innings. Over throwing, longer delays between pitches, etc…

The “overthrowing” is where a lot of the injuries come from – Stay on top of this (Not many players get drafted with bad flippers).

Good luck to your son SeedThrower
Itsrosy – you know how much I love your son’s dedication.

I think that pitch count, typically, is very overrated. Of course, there needs to be some type of limit set as the head coach, but I think many coaches baby their players. There are, in fact, times when keeping a pitch count to a certain number is necessary. (first couple starts in the spring season) but if pitch count is going to a big emphasis on a player, you also need to take into consideration the kids mechanics, physical build, athleticsm, endurance and etc.. It varies for every pitcher in this state.

Here is how my son's first pitching coach answered the question of pitch counts. He said, when the ball starts getting high in the strike zone, take the kid out, he is tired. You must protect your kid's arm. Parents should not be talking to their kids or coaches during a game, but if a kid is going 10 innings as a 15 year old, you had better say something.

bbdad,

That is exactly how I felt. My son was not getting the ball high, he was still pitching well, but he had reached about 120 pitches and the coach wanted to send him out for the last inning. We don't usually like to say anything the coaches either, but felt it was appropriate in this case. It was a little ugly when we told the coach that our son was not going out for the last inning, however, the coach did not hold it against our son and only acted cold to us for 2 weeks and then was fine. As a matter of fact, when our son did not pitch that inning, the coach sent him over to play first base. Even that was a little bit inappropriate I felt. Even though my son is a good hitter, he had already played six innings that game and it would have been ok to sit him down and leave the other kid in. It all works out I guess, but sometimes the coach is thinking only about that game and not the kids future.

Our son was never under a pitch count as such but in HS was limited to 4 innings or 12 outs.
In Elite ball he would get asked every inning how his arm felt and he would be the one to shut himself down. Generally at 15-16 he would throw 100-110 pitches max. As he got up around 17-18 he would go 120-140 but again pull himself if he got tired or stressed.
Never interfered and never had to.

Wow, as a pitcher's mom, I am TOTALLY amazed at some of these posts and attitudes towards being afraid to approach the coach.
Hopperhop,
In son's senior year, preseason son's first outing he threw way too many pitches. Next day set a meeting with coach and AD, WE laid the ground rules. Only time we had to interfere with Coach's coaching.
As far as what D1 coaches think, sons future pithcing coach was also on the phone the next day. Many have big plans for their pitchers, the don't want injuries coming to school.

I, like Tiger Paw Mom was also amazed at some of the responses regarding pitch counts so I did a little research...

Maximum pitches per game

8-10 year olds - 50 pitches
11-12 year olds - 70 pitches
13-14 year olds - 75 pitches
15-16 year olds - 90 pitches
17-19 year olds - 105 pitches

Source: American Sports Medicine Institute
(ASMI)

Kinda makes Mom and Dad comfortable taking control over parenting decisions regarding the well being of their CHILDREN.

There probably should be standards, but there are some variables. Some kids are not as sound mechanically and their count should be lower.

34/33 talked about a weighted pitch count....that makes sense.

It really shouldn't be a problem because generally if you are throwing a lot of pitches, especially balls, you won't be in the game long enough to throw too many of them. IMO most good coaches would know when to pull a pitcher even without knowing how many pitches they have thrown, because they are losing effectiveness and breaking down mechanically.

Fastball,

I agree but we view posts about high pitch counts and have seen kids throw 120/140 plus pitches in all kinds of weather, during every part of the season and several times during the season. We let the kid throw those 120 pitches (more for Seedthrower sons) and then play ss for the next three games at the XCDFN tournament and close the last four innings of the championship game. Lots a folks think thats o.k. It happens all the time. It is the one area that I think that H.S. and Travel need to do a better job controlling.

Agreed.

Pitch Counts depend on the kid. Older stronger boys can and should be able to throw for a longer period of time. Other factors include weather as well as the type of pitcher the athlete is. Pitch counts and the idea of a magic number are senseless because they impose an arbitrary restriction on a game that is filled with unknown variables.

The type of pitcher does make a difference in terms of how many pitches they can throw and how many pitches a coach should feel comfortable with them throwing. One thing I truly believe however is that the first time out a game situation most young pitchers should be between 50-75 pitches. This not only allows the kid to not be over taxed early, but also lets the coach see a more of his staff in early games.

One of the things I saw last year was coaches on the sophomore and freshman levels allowing their pitchers to throw an high amount of pitches(100 plus). I don't see their reasoning behind this. Not only does it improve the chances of injury but it also does nothing to develope the program. The lower levels should be used for developement for the varsity level. They serve no other purpose. I really can't see any situations where I would have a kid throw more than 70 pitches their fresh/soph years. Not even a conference championship warrents 100 plus pitches.

Ball ya,

Scarey post. Please tell us that your not a coach.