Now that the tournaments are underway, how many pitches are your kids throwing per outing and are they pitching more than once during the tournament?
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SP will only pitch once in a tournament if possible. Usually 85-100 pitches by this point. RP will go at least twice in tournaments.
Ask Nolan Ryan what he thinks about pitch counts.
One of our Freshman threw 105 pitches on Saturday for his Varsity squad. He got the win. However, most would agree that is too many pitches this early in the season, especially with the weather conditions that were present on Saturday.
You just hope as a parent or coach that a win is not more important than a young man's arm, AT ANY TIME.
You just hope as a parent or coach that a win is not more important than a young man's arm, AT ANY TIME.
what i like to know is sometimes when my son pitches his shoulder hurts i do not let him throw more pitches then allowed and i do ice him after each game he pitches. i
quote:Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
Ask Nolan Ryan what he thinks about pitch counts.
Enlighten us wise one!
quote:Originally posted by PAW-FECT:quote:Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
Ask Nolan Ryan what he thinks about pitch counts.
Enlighten us wise one!
Why? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it.
Giddy Up regards,
Ryan, baseball's first million-dollar player, realizes the game has changed. Players are averaging nearly $3 million a year. The industry is generating nearly $7 billion. And agents are loathe to let their clients throw 300 innings.
Still, Ryan is determined to change the pitching philosophy in Texas. He would love to confiscate every pitch counter used by coaches. It drives him batty when he watches pitchers being pulled from games because their pitch count hits 110 or 120.
"We have to change this mindset," says Ryan. "Some of the guys have been on a pitch count since Little League. It should be tailored to the individual.
"These pitchers have to realize what their capabilities are, and build up their stamina. I remember it used to be that 300 innings was the benchmark for an ace. If you were a starter, you were expected to pitch at least 250 innings. Now, you may have one guy go 200 innings on your whole staff.
"That's why you see 12, 13 pitchers on every team.."
Still, Ryan is determined to change the pitching philosophy in Texas. He would love to confiscate every pitch counter used by coaches. It drives him batty when he watches pitchers being pulled from games because their pitch count hits 110 or 120.
"We have to change this mindset," says Ryan. "Some of the guys have been on a pitch count since Little League. It should be tailored to the individual.
"These pitchers have to realize what their capabilities are, and build up their stamina. I remember it used to be that 300 innings was the benchmark for an ace. If you were a starter, you were expected to pitch at least 250 innings. Now, you may have one guy go 200 innings on your whole staff.
"That's why you see 12, 13 pitchers on every team.."
This is a weak response. Most of us are familiar with your baseball employment history. You have insights most of us will never have. Make a case (without insulting any of us) why pitch counts are unnecessary, or used incorrectly. Explain what pitch count philosophies were during your time of employment with MLB. Explain in your view how pitch counts have changed the game. That would be interesting reading.quote:Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
Why? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it.
quote:Originally posted by dbg_fan:This is a weak response. Most of us are familiar with your baseball employment history. You have insights most of us will never have. Make a case (without insulting any of us) why pitch counts are unnecessary, or used incorrectly. Explain what pitch count philosophies were during your time of employment with MLB. Explain in your view how pitch counts have changed the game. That would be interesting reading.quote:Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
Why? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it.
That horse that ain't drinkin' water is probably dead by now...
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...=171107719#171107719
And another...
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...781/m/6421065181/p/3
none of you make any sense of this issue what about a cow bunch of hill billys
quote:Originally posted by robsdad:
none of you make any sense of this issue what about a cow bunch of hill billys
Leave it to some illiterate yankee to leave a post you can't even decipher!
I’m no doctor, and did not want to pay the $22 for the one day subscription but here is what some fairly intelligent folks say. I have selected only the conclusion / results of some the posted studies. Draw your own conclusions. I certainly believe every player is different. BUT there is a very common thread to many of the sports medicine arm injury articles that are published. VELOCITY, OVERUSE, TYPE OF PITCH, SIZE OF PERSON always seem to come up. Wouldn't it behoove us to be cautious? Didn't they think giving water at practice developed a bunch of weenie's? Oh, and wasn't Nolan a freek of Nature?
Risk Factors for Shoulder and Elbow Injuries in Adolescent Baseball Pitchers Published in the American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine
....The injured group pitched significantly more months per year, games per year, innings per game, pitches per game, pitches per year, and warm-up pitches before a game. These pitchers were more frequently starting pitchers, pitched in more showcases, pitched with higher velocity, and pitched more often with arm pain and fatigue. They also used anti-inflammatory drugs and ice more frequently to prevent an injury. Although the groups were age matched, the injured group was taller and heavier. There were no significant differences regarding private pitching instruction, coach's chief concern, pitcher's self-rating, exercise programs, stretching practices, relieving frequency, pitch type frequency, or age at which pitch types were first thrown. Conclusion: Pitching practices were significantly different between the groups. The factors with the strongest associations with injury were overuse and fatigue. High pitch velocity and participation in showcases were also associated with increased risk for injury.
Ulnar Collateral Ligament Reconstruction in High School Baseball Players Clinical Results and Injury Risk Factors Published in the American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine
....Overuse of the throwing arm and throwing breaking pitches at an early age may be related to their injuries. Special attention should be paid to elite-level teenage pitchers who throw with high velocity.
Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers.
Published in the American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine
Four hundred and seventy-six young (ages 9 to 14 years) baseball pitchers were followed for one season. Data were collected from pre- and postseason questionnaires, injury and performance interviews after each game, pitch count logs, and video analysis of pitching mechanics. Generalized estimating equations and logistic regression analysis were used. Results: Half of the subjects experienced elbow or shoulder pain during the season. The curveball was associated with a 52% increased risk of shoulder pain and the slider was associated with an 86% increased risk of elbow pain. There was a significant association between the number of pitches thrown in a game and during the season and the rate of elbow pain and shoulder pain. Conclusions: Pitchers in this age group should be cautioned about throwing breaking pitches (curveballs and sliders) because of the increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. Limitations on pitches thrown in a game and in a season can also reduce the risk of pain. Further evaluation of pain and pitching mechanics is necessary.
Published in American Orthopedic Society for Sports Medicine
Overuse of the throwing arm and throwing breaking pitches at an early age may be related to their injuries. Special attention should be paid to elite-level teenage pitchers who throw with high velocity
Are we all asleep yet?
Risk Factors for Shoulder and Elbow Injuries in Adolescent Baseball Pitchers Published in the American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine
....The injured group pitched significantly more months per year, games per year, innings per game, pitches per game, pitches per year, and warm-up pitches before a game. These pitchers were more frequently starting pitchers, pitched in more showcases, pitched with higher velocity, and pitched more often with arm pain and fatigue. They also used anti-inflammatory drugs and ice more frequently to prevent an injury. Although the groups were age matched, the injured group was taller and heavier. There were no significant differences regarding private pitching instruction, coach's chief concern, pitcher's self-rating, exercise programs, stretching practices, relieving frequency, pitch type frequency, or age at which pitch types were first thrown. Conclusion: Pitching practices were significantly different between the groups. The factors with the strongest associations with injury were overuse and fatigue. High pitch velocity and participation in showcases were also associated with increased risk for injury.
Ulnar Collateral Ligament Reconstruction in High School Baseball Players Clinical Results and Injury Risk Factors Published in the American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine
....Overuse of the throwing arm and throwing breaking pitches at an early age may be related to their injuries. Special attention should be paid to elite-level teenage pitchers who throw with high velocity.
Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers.
Published in the American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine
Four hundred and seventy-six young (ages 9 to 14 years) baseball pitchers were followed for one season. Data were collected from pre- and postseason questionnaires, injury and performance interviews after each game, pitch count logs, and video analysis of pitching mechanics. Generalized estimating equations and logistic regression analysis were used. Results: Half of the subjects experienced elbow or shoulder pain during the season. The curveball was associated with a 52% increased risk of shoulder pain and the slider was associated with an 86% increased risk of elbow pain. There was a significant association between the number of pitches thrown in a game and during the season and the rate of elbow pain and shoulder pain. Conclusions: Pitchers in this age group should be cautioned about throwing breaking pitches (curveballs and sliders) because of the increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. Limitations on pitches thrown in a game and in a season can also reduce the risk of pain. Further evaluation of pain and pitching mechanics is necessary.
Published in American Orthopedic Society for Sports Medicine
Overuse of the throwing arm and throwing breaking pitches at an early age may be related to their injuries. Special attention should be paid to elite-level teenage pitchers who throw with high velocity
Are we all asleep yet?
I have heard Dr. Conway speak before about this (I was also a patient of his). He said that the thing he sees more than anything are kids that pitch and also play SS and 3B. He sees more injuries from those types of kids than any other.
His advice was for your pitcher's, if they play another position, to play 1B or OF. Obviously, don't let them play the other position the next day or two after they pitch.
Oh, I know, your SS is also your best pitcher. You may want to think twice about that.
His advice was for your pitcher's, if they play another position, to play 1B or OF. Obviously, don't let them play the other position the next day or two after they pitch.
Oh, I know, your SS is also your best pitcher. You may want to think twice about that.
quote:Originally posted by Crash_Davis:
I have heard Dr. Conway speak before about this (I was also a patient of his). He said that the thing he sees more than anything are kids that pitch and also play SS and 3B. He sees more injuries from those types of kids than any other.
His advice was for your pitcher's, if they play another position, to play 1B or OF. Obviously, don't let them play the other position the next day or two after they pitch.
Oh, I know, your SS is also your best pitcher. You may want to think twice about that.
Couldn't agree with this more.
I cringe when I see a pitcher being put into the field after being on the mound.
Or watching a kid take infield the day after he pitched.
I've also been a patient of Dr. Conway. Twice.
That horse did't drink the first time? 
Ken....JK
You have provided some great information and comments....I just could not resist!
Yeeee Haw!
You have provided some great information and comments....I just could not resist!
Yeeee Haw!
was watching a DISD game last friday where the pitcher threw 108 pitches in game 1 and then goes behind the plate for game 2. this is a guy that has been coaching in DISD for 20yrs. not sure what these guys are thinking sometimes.
1st game of the season, weather cold, overcast mid-40s. Starting pitcher throws complete game, 110 pitches, touching 94 in the 6th inning. Next game starts at 1st base (right after game one). In the middle of the game chases down an overthrow into foul ground in right field and fires to 3rd base to try to get runner, feeling something tweaked in right forearm. Continues to start, both pitching and playing 1st until 2 weeks later has to walk off the mound in the 2nd inning due to severe elbow pain. Season ruined, draft ruined but thank goodness for Dr. Conway.
3 years later the pitcher is a 2nd team All-American and a high draft choice. But it could have been even higher as medical questions caused some falloff by teams.
The pros and colleges don't abuse kids the way some high school coaches do. Just pray that you kid plays for one of the good ones. And if he doesn't be sure that you have Dr. Conway's number in your hip pocket.
3 years later the pitcher is a 2nd team All-American and a high draft choice. But it could have been even higher as medical questions caused some falloff by teams.
The pros and colleges don't abuse kids the way some high school coaches do. Just pray that you kid plays for one of the good ones. And if he doesn't be sure that you have Dr. Conway's number in your hip pocket.
I hate to even admit this happened as I am one of those guys who definitely thinks that early in the season 80-85 pitches is enough for a young pitcher. We have a new coach at our school who is a really nice guy and very approachable. My younger son who had pitched on Tuesday 79 pitches in a six inning winning outing was the starter the following Saturday in the championship game of a high school tournament. The first 7 innings went well but the game was tied 2-2 and he had already thrown 98 pitches. My wife and I didn't know what to do when he sent him out for the 8th inning. She was very upset so I told her reminded her he has a real easy motion and I figured that he would be pulled at the slightest trouble. Well he retired the first guy in the 8th on one pitch but then he walked a guy on 6 pitches. I looked to the dugout but the coach didn't move. He then walked another then hit a batter. This was after walking only 2 guys in the first 7 innings. My wife and I coldn't believe the coach couldn't see that he was done. He visited the mound and still left him in as he walked in the lead run. Finally after 122 pitches he goes out and pulls him. Reliever walks another guy, two errors follow and game gets away 7-2. After the game we pulled coach aside and firmly told him that this would never happen again. He said that he felt he throws so easily that he didn't feel it was hurting his arm. I told him I don't care how easily he throws, I don't want him to ever throw him 122 pitches in a game again,especially when he had a couple of guys who while they don't throw near as hard at least would have been fresh arms. He said okay. Three nights later senior son had a 2 hit shutout with 12 strikeouts but had thrown 90 pitches through 6 innings. This time he pulled our older son so I feel he learned not to let persuit of a victory blind him again. In the end it cost us the victory and could have hurt my younger sons arm. Still I don't know of anything we could have done during the game without seeming like I'm trying to manage for him. We had talked about pitch counts before the regualar season started but I think he got caught up in the excitement of the game playing a larger school and having a chance at the tournament championship.
Three Bagger,
Please don't take my questions the wrong way but I'd like to discuss and ask a few things about your post.
Not knowing your son, you, or the coach...I can only assume everything in the situation you post is accurate.
As that it is, I tend to agree that the situation is worth some attention.
Although, I would like to understand where you get your information to justify your opinions on pitch counts?
You mentioned he threw 98 pitches before the inning in question. Was 98 pitches an appropriate pitch count for you and you wife at that time on that day?
If he would have breezed through the 8th, was 115 pitches appropriate?
If neither, what was an appropriate pitch count given his previous start and where he's at physically, during the season, and his coaching?
With all of this, can you give some references or examples on where you draw this information from?
Please don't take my questions the wrong way but I'd like to discuss and ask a few things about your post.
Not knowing your son, you, or the coach...I can only assume everything in the situation you post is accurate.
As that it is, I tend to agree that the situation is worth some attention.
Although, I would like to understand where you get your information to justify your opinions on pitch counts?
You mentioned he threw 98 pitches before the inning in question. Was 98 pitches an appropriate pitch count for you and you wife at that time on that day?
If he would have breezed through the 8th, was 115 pitches appropriate?
If neither, what was an appropriate pitch count given his previous start and where he's at physically, during the season, and his coaching?
With all of this, can you give some references or examples on where you draw this information from?
Regardless of the pitch count, I think the 8th inning struggle was the sign to make a pitching change. It seemed to be evidence that the pitcher has lost his effectiveness (for whatever reason). Yeah, I know some of you will argue this point.
Regarding a reaction during the game, there is nothing (or little) that parents can do. Speaking to the coach after the game, with calmer minds, is the way to go.
An injury can occur in any inning, after any number of pitches. Or a kid can throw 140 and be fine. As we have discussed a million times before, pitch count limits always draw controversy.
-PD, aka Obvious man
Regarding a reaction during the game, there is nothing (or little) that parents can do. Speaking to the coach after the game, with calmer minds, is the way to go.
An injury can occur in any inning, after any number of pitches. Or a kid can throw 140 and be fine. As we have discussed a million times before, pitch count limits always draw controversy.
-PD, aka Obvious man
quote:Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Regarding a reaction during the game, there is nothing (or little) that parents can do. Speaking to the coach after the game, with calmer minds, is the way to go.
I agreed with your post.
Regarding your quote above, what if the discussion led to the coach trying to justify his pitch count (for conversation sake let's use 125 max) with factual information he gathered from a study he researched? Then what? Do we as parents (wow, I can say that now) have the ammo to debate the coach?
I guess what I'm getting at here is...we all know that protecting young arms is important.
But from what factual information do we draw from to conclude a certain number is an appropriate measure of pitch counts?
In this case, I would have been more concerned on the 3 days rest this early in the season than the pitch count. But that's another topic.
Well -- I have never claimed to be an expert on anything, let alone pitching or pitch counts (although I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night). My conversation with the coach would be to understand his thinking -- not to throw data in his face. Obviously, there are several factors to consider in a case like this one -- for instance, does the coach have a history of high pitch counts early in the season (like this time)? -- or does the kid have a history of arm problems (even extended soreness) that occur in instances when he throws 95+ -- something the coach may actually be interested in knowing. If a coach knows a kid is effective to 80-85 pitches.....and becomes inconsistent thereafter....his hook may be ready sooner. As Ken reiterates, everyone's goals should be the same (HAHA!) -- protect arms, develop strength, win games, establish TEAM, etc.
quote:Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Well -- I have never claimed to be an expert on anything, let alone pitching or pitch counts (although I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night). My conversation with the coach would be to understand his thinking -- not to throw data in his face. Obviously, there are several factors to consider in a case like this one -- for instance, does the coach have a history of high pitch counts early in the season (like this time)? -- or does the kid have a history of arm problems (even extended soreness) that occur in instances when he throws 95+ -- something the coach may actually be interested in knowing. If a coach knows a kid is effective to 80-85 pitches.....and becomes inconsistent thereafter....his hook may be ready sooner. As Ken reiterates, everyone's goals should be the same (HAHA!) -- protect arms, develop strength, win games, establish TEAM, etc.
PD,
Can you put the part about TEAM first in our agenda?
Just watched Jake Feckley from Wylie throw 132 pitches against Plano tonight. Wonder what the Aggie coaches will think about that! 
What are the acceptable pitch counts? 
Where are these rules or considerations depending on age, season, coach, and team?
Who holds the scripture for this?
Please, somebody help me find this material so I can brush up on what is acceptable or not.
Where are these rules or considerations depending on age, season, coach, and team?
Who holds the scripture for this?
Please, somebody help me find this material so I can brush up on what is acceptable or not.
Ken, sorry I didn't get back on this sooner, but I think the main worry for my wife about the 98 pitches and still going out was that since she does not follow these threads or read near as much about baseball she gets fixiated on a number like 100 pitches is set in stone because someone or some article said that. I know there are a lot of factors and I was trying to explain that mechanics, time of season, pitchers arm stregnth, and many other things leave this far from being cut in stone. What bothered me is that the coach had no one warming up and probably 125 or 130 pitches would not have made a difference to him. While I can't say a particular number is too many, I feel 122 at this stage of the season following 79 with three days rest is too many. Why do major league teams often have their young (18-20) year old prospects on pitch counts in the low minors of 90 -100 or 105 pitches if there isn't some basis for keeping pitch counts low. I've seen what the Dusty Bakers of the world do to young professional pitchers with their multiple 120-130 pitch count games and feel that there has to be a limit. I guess I'm just sefish in that way but I'm not leaving my two boy's futures on anybody's high school field and would rather err on the side on being conservative. Especially when their futures are as outfielders and not pitchers.
quote:Originally posted by Three Bagger:
What bothered me is that the coach had no one warming up
Excellent.
I appreciate your post and think you have many valid observations and opinions.