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I just wanted to know what is considered a good pitch count for Varsity ball at this time of year (early in the season). In other words, how many days rest should you have for so many pitches and how many pitches a week is considered enough? For example, if you pitched 90 pitches on Saturday, when should you be able to safely pitch again another 90 pitches? Or if you pitched 50 pitches on Saturday, when should you be able to safely pitch again and at what pitch count should you stop? How many total pitches in one week is too many? I'm sorry this is confusing. I am not sure how to word it to get the answers I am looking for.
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Different strokes for different folks. Depends on recovery time, conditioning, weather, and history of effectivness in the next outing. Remember these are kids that think they are invincible. They may feel great, but, is the whole package ready to go. Injuries many times occur when the part of the body is compensating for another part. It's a long season, why push early. Monitor pitch location, that seems to be a good indicator of fatigue.
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This same thing was discussed in my house last night. My '04 son pitched 53 pitches on tuesday, last night (thursday) he pitched full 7 innings, 93 pitches. To me this seems like alot. I asked this morning how he felt and he said "good". He did tell me coach told him after the game last night he will not pitch again till thursday of next week.
People being people, if you ask for a 85 pitch count for your kid and he stays under 95 you have done well. Run after the game to eliminate lactic acid to minimize soreness, take asprin the next day if needed.

Dick Mills pitch count guidelines are optomistic in my very humble opinion. Allowing a high school pitcher go 106 pitches a week in two games max is fine for me. He should know what the limits are. His kid has been cut on, more than once I think.
Frank

That’s true. Plenty of people believe certain arm injuries, particularly elbow ligament injuries, result from cumulative damage from overuse. Injuries can result from bad genetics, inadequate conditioning, overuse, climate or any combination.

That being said, I don't know the specifics of his sons injury(ies). Perhaps injuries to pitchers are as inevitable as knee injuries are for footballers. I think its a good idea to do all possible, short of retiring, to minimize the risk in order to prevent, or at least postpone the seemingly inevitable. I for one, feel pitch counts are the dirty little secret that coaches regard as tabboo to even discuss with even the player.

BTW John Smoltz is recovering from his 4th elbow surgery. A case for the inevitablity of elbow damage. I'm sure he was on pitch counts since the day he signed.
Here is some information that is on the ASMI.org website

USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee
Position Statement on Youth Baseball Injuries
July 2003

Baseball is one of the safest sports available for today's youth. However, many of the serious injuries suffered by adult baseball pitchers may have begun to develop at the youth level. One of the missions of the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee is to provide scientifically based information to its youth baseball members to reduce the risk of injury and maximize the younger player's ability to perform and advance to higher levels.

Pitch Counts
Pitches are counted and monitored for professional, collegiate, and high school pitchers in order for them to reduce the risk of injury. A 1996 survey conducted by the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee (USA Baseball News, 1996) showed that most experts believed pitch counts should be kept for youth pitchers as well. In response to this charge, the committee sponsored an epidemiological study by the American Sports Medicine Institute (ASMI) to look at this issue. This study - published in The American Journal of Sports Medicine in 2002 - showed a significant relationship between the number of pitches thrown and the risk of shoulder and elbow pain in youth baseball. It is the opinion of ASMI and the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee that joint pain indicates the early development of a potentially serious joint injury. Thus pitch count limits are recommended for youth baseball. If - for some valid reason - a league is unable or unwilling to enact pitch count limits, the league should limit the number of batters faced. Since 9 to 12 year-old baseball pitchers average about 5 pitches per batter, pitch count recommendations can be converted into batter limitations by dividing by 5. However, pitch limitations are a better choice than batter limitations for accurately monitoring and controlling risk of overuse.

Pitch Types
The 2002 study by the ASMI also showed that youth baseball pitchers who throw curveballs or sliders have an increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. Therefore, youth pitchers should avoid throwing breaking pitches in order to reduce the risk of future overuse injuries.

Pitching Mechanics and Physical Conditioning
A study by ASMI published in 1999 (Journal of Biomechanics) showed that elite pitchers of all levels use similar mechanics, but significantly more force at higher levels. Therefore, pitchers should develop proper mechanics as early as possible and include more year-round physical conditioning as their body develops.

Multiple Appearances
Because a youth pitcher usually stays in the game at another position after pitching, the player is eligible to return to the mound later in the game, according to the rules of baseball. While it may be good strategy to have a starting pitcher come back in and finish a game, it is not a good idea from a health and safety perspective. Muscles, tendons, and ligaments need time to "cool down" after physical activity, just like they need to "warm up" before activity.

Showcases
Showcases are established to give young players the opportunity to display their skills to scouts at higher levels of baseball. Unfortunately, showcases often occur near the end of the players' season, when players are often fatigued and require rest and recovery. In other instances, players participate in a showcase after a prolonged period since their league ended and without adequate preparation to throw hard again. It is without a doubt that young throwers will try to overthrow at these events in an effort to impress the scouts and coaches, which further increases the risk of serious arm injury.

Multiple Leagues
In order to get more opportunity to develop skills, many young players play in multiple leagues. Although the amount of pitching in a league is often limited by league rules or the judgment of its coaches, individual pitchers sometimes exceed such limitations by pitching in more than one league at a time. The strength and skills needed to be a successful pitcher are developed by repetition; however, a pitcher must also give his body time to rest and recover in order to optimize his development.

Year-Round Baseball
In certain parts of warm-weather states (Florida, Texas, California, etc.) baseball leagues are available in all seasons. However, the principle of periodization states that an athlete should have different periods and activities in his annual conditioning schedule. Specifically, baseball pitchers need a period of "active rest" after their season ends and before the next preseason begins. During active rest a pitcher is encouraged to participate in physical activities that do not include a great amount of overhand throwing.

Recommendations
Based upon its expertise and review of existing studies, the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee makes the following recommendations for minimizing a pitcher's risk of future serious arm injury and maximizing his chance of success

· Coaches and parents should listen and react appropriately to a youth pitcher when he/she complains about arm pain. A pitcher who complains or shows signs of arm pain during a game should be removed immediately from pitching. Parents should seek medical attention if pain is not relieved within four days or if the pain recurs immediately the next time the player pitches. League officials should inform parents about this consideration.

· Pitch counts should be monitored and regulated in youth baseball. Recommended limits for youth pitchers are as follows:
9-10 year old pitchers
50 pitches per game
75 pitches per week
1000 pitches per season
2000 pitches per year
11-12 year old pitchers
75 pitches per game
100 pitches per week
1000 pitches per season
3000 pitches per year
13-14 year old pitchers
75 pitches per game
125 pitches per week
1000 pitches per season
3000 pitches per year

Pitch count limits pertain to pitches thrown in games only. These limits do not include throws from other positions, instructional pitching during practice sessions, and throwing drills, which are important for the development of technique and strength. Backyard pitching practice after a pitched game is strongly discouraged.

· Pitchers should not throw breaking pitches (curveballs, sliders, etc.) in competition until their bones have matured (indicated by puberty) - typically about 13 years of age. In order to succeed, a youth pitcher should focus on good mechanics, a fast fastball, a good change-up, and good control.

· Pitchers should develop proper mechanics as early as possible and include more year-round physical conditioning as their body develops.

· A Pitcher should be prohibited from returning to the mound in a game once he/she has been removed as the pitcher.

· Baseball players - especially pitchers - are discouraged from participating in showcases due to the risk of injury. The importance of "showcases" should be de-emphasized, and at the least, pitchers should be permitted time to appropriately prepare.

· Baseball pitchers are discouraged from pitching for more than one team in a given season.

· Baseball pitchers should compete in baseball no more than nine months in any given year, as periodization is needed to give the pitcher's body time to rest and recover. For at least three months a year, a baseball pitcher should not play any baseball, participate in throwing drills, or participate in other stressful overhead activities (javelin throwing, football quarterback, softball, competitive swimming, etc.).

References
Andrews JR, Chmielewski T, Escamilla RF, Fleisig GS, Wilk KE. Conditioning program for professional baseball pitchers. American Sports Medicine Institute, Birmingham, AL, 1997.
Andrews JR, Fleisig GS. How many pitches should I allow my child to throw? USA Baseball News April, 1996
Fleisig GS, Barrentine SW, Zheng N, Escamilla RF, Andrews JR. Kinematic and kinetic comparison of baseball pitching among various levels of development. Journal of Biomechanics 32(12):1371-1375, 1999.
Lyman S, Fleisig GS, Andrews JR, Osinski ED. Effect of pitch type, pitch count, and pitching mechanics on risk of elbow and shoulder pain in youth baseball pitchers. The American Journal of Sports Medicine 30(4):463-468, 2002.

Additional publications and research findings available at www.asmi.org

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"
Dad04,

Dicks son never had any problems until he hit the minors. It's been said that if you are a pitcher it no a question of if you will have probelms it's a matter of when.


But as he points out in his article , he didn't come up with these numbers he got them from the American Sports Medicine institute. They use to have the same chart on thier site, but when I looked earlier today, I couldn't find it.

Play every game as if it were your last
The original post was about pitch counts and days of rest for varsity pitchers.All of the information from ASMI is great,my son has followed their stretching and exercises and has
had no problems yet.This season,the "brain trust" has come up with the plan of pitching a
few innings every game.This is what is more troubling than just a pitch count=injuries occur
over time when a pitcher is constantly pitching
on short rest.This is not an opinion,it is a fact.Coaches, and especially parents and pitchers should monitor the rest and time between starts.It is more important to have the
proper rest between appearances then just counting pitches.If you throw 100 pitches,then rest a week, it is a lot safer for your arm instead of throwing 40-50 pitches then coming back and pitching another 40-50 in 2-3 days.Over
time,the short rest will lead to problems.
Since my son is the #1 pitcher on a team with weak pitching and he will play 1B when not pitching my husband and I met with the AD and Coach to discuss max pitch counts in a week and rest between starts. Taking into consideration there is pen and warm up between innings, infield practice everyday, it can be a lot of stress on the arm, no matter how great shape the player is in.
My son has excellent mechanics and injury free. Yet he does have 4 years of bb in college and maybe pro ball. To me, HS ball is not worth risking injury. Every extra pitch thrown is more wear and tear on the arm that shows up later.
Ballsdownsouth
You have questioned a 146 pc count in three days in the beginning of the season. To me this is way too much. Everyone is different, but for our son's future, we made it quite clear we will not allow him to sacrifice his health for a win.
I do believe this has been discussed before but Bighit has a nice recovery formula he has shared in another thread.
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Thanks for the posts. I was just wondering because my son has been pitching well and his velocity has been really good (consistently in the 90's), but then the other day his velocity had really dropped (never even hit 90, more like average 85). He said his arm was dead before the game started. Unfortunatley about 20 scouts showed up to watch him pitch (bummer). Those that had seen him pitch before said that it was obvious that he was fatigued. He had thrown 145 pitches the week before in two different games. His last game was Saturday at 94 pitches and then Thursday (the day the scouts game and his arm was tired) he pitched again another 90 pitches. Luckily the preseason tournaments will be over after next week and I probably won't have to worry about it. Thanks again.
No Way 90,

I'm just the mom of a HS senior RHP, not an expert, but if your son said his arm felt "dead" before the Thursday game, and his velocity was down, that would seem to answer the question for that particular week: his arm was tired and he needed more rest between outings. As other folks have said before, it depends on the individual pitcher, his mechanics and conditioning, weather, how many pitches per inning (90 pitches in 4 innings is a lot worse than 90 pitches in 7 innings). But if a kid's arm feels tired at the start of a mound appearance ... he needed more rest!

One other rule of thumb that I read a few years ago, that has seemed to make sense for my son and is very simple and easy to remember:

On AVERAGE, a high school pitcher should have at least 1 hour of rest for every 1 game pitch thrown.

So, 2 innings at 24 pitches on a Thursday means he might be able to safely pitch on Friday night. For your question: "For example, if you pitched 90 pitches on Saturday, when should you be able to safely pitch again another 90 pitches?", the answer would be ... wait until Wednesday.

Again, this is just a recommendation for minimum rest for the AVERAGE situation, and each pitcher will vary, but this guideline has been helpful to us.
I have to tell you some of these posts are nightmarish! to Baseonballs50, you gotta to be kidding me that you met with the coach and AD. The coach and AD must be crazy for meeting with you! Pitch in college and Pro? the only way he gets there is through the school! who do you think they come to when they want official grades! any coach who has a kid with parents like you better make sure when he recommends the kid that he informs the college coach of this meeting. If you already ave your sights set on MLB then it could happen in college also!

I love the parents who feel the need to address coaches, do you think your parents would have ever do this? no way, but different generations. You are the people responsible for the qualified coaches not coaching! as they do not want to deal with you! So blame yourself if a underqualified coach hurts the kids arm!

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