Pitch counts...not in the DIII CWS

There was some discussion on this on the d3baseball board and I guess you see these kind of pitch counts (maybe not this extreme) in D3 playoff's where the thinking is that the pitchers are generally not affecting their potential future as a pro player, but these kind of pitch counts, and probably more importantly, stopping and starting on the same day are beyond reasonable lMO. 

 

I actually thought Trinity had a significant advantage in the regional based on their pitching depth, but Linfield rolled out their number 1 starter on two days rest. He threw 16 innings in 4 days in 3 games, two as a starter and one as a closer.

 

I know from personal experience that you can live a reasonably comfortable life with shoulder injuries from baseball overuse (BP), but they do affect things I can and can not do. 

 

It would not surprise me to see the NCAA step in after this weekend. 

Who are you suggesting is better than Linfield who won it all?  Surely not Trinity, a team they beat in regionals along the way.

Obviously what this guy threw is beyond ridiculous but I'm not sure if I want the NCAA to step in.  What is the solution to ensure this doesn't happen again?  You start throwing out hard numbers that everyone has to follow and in some cases you're holding back some guys because they can handle it and you're still not helping out others because the limit is still too many for them.

It does seem a high, but I agree it's not for the NCAA to say.  We're talking about young men old enough to die in wars here...legal adults, not 12 year olds.  If they want to finish off their careers (and elbows/shoulders), who's to say that sounldn't count nor be allowed? Just sounds like some sour grapes to me.  Kid sounds like a stud to me.

Interesting dilemma: if the coach grabbed that pitcher by the arm, hit him in that arm or twisted that pitching arm, it probably would be observed in one way, even if no real trauma or injury occurred.

Have him pitch over 15 innings and over 200 pitches in one day and well over 300 in 4 days and it is baseball.

As BOF notes, many posters on the D3 site approve of this as being part of winning, winning the D3 CWS and sort of who cares since they won't be drafted.

Tx, please re-read the post I made. I said they beat probably the 2nd best team in D3 in the West Regional. Not sure how much more clear that could be.

My bad infield.  I thought you were claiming they were 2nd best to your Tinity boys.  Don't get be wrong, I think it's stupid to throw that much.  But stupid and outlawed are two different things.

Similar situation happened when our son played in the West Regional in 2004. That pitcher threw 35 innings in 12 days.  Was drafted in the 7th round and had a huge future.  Less than 50 innings later he ended up having major arm surgery where it was found he not only tore the UCL, he tore the   bone where it attaches. He never pitched again. His coach is now succeeding at the DI level.

I guarantee you that kid in 2004 was a major stud who had a quick end to an extremely promising  baseball career.

Tx, your point and distinction are so much on point in the dilemma.  The problem is that coach is rewarded for what some(most) would call "stupid" and the pitcher is out of baseball for his courage and efforts.

...and one wonders what the kid now thinks, and if he had learned to stand up and say no to protect himself.  You're talking about someone in his early 20s...not a 12 year old.  Mike Tyson make over $300m around the same age and went bankrupt.  But he was accountable for his decisions, right?

Looked at from a different perspective, I wonder what every teammate, coach, etc would have "thought" at the time if that pitcher stood up and said no to protect himself.  Frankly, I am not sure I have ever seen a pitcher in a Regional, SR or CWS, at any level, say "no."  Aren't that what coaches are for?

I think that's what the guys at Enron said about the audit comittee.  Responsibility doesn't sit with a single person.

Unfortunately, I think the judgement changes based on the pitchers future.  I know most will disagree, but if my own son was a DIII pitcher with no chance of playing at the next level, I would be damn proud of him for this kind of effort and I wouldn't complain. There are some people who will risk arm injury to have that once in a life time opportunity to win a National Championship.  The arm will heal, but the chance of winning a National Championship may never come again.  

 

Now if those college games were just the beginning of a possible promising career, it would be terrible to take the risk.

 

I guess what I'm saying is all situations are not the same.  However, as a coach there is no way I would allow what happened in this case, even if I knew this was the last time this guy was ever going to pitch.  it should never happen, but it does, as we all know. 

 

I sure can understand the pitcher in this situation.  I applaud him for it! Winning was all he cared about and he thought it was important enough to risk injury. At least, I hope that was the case, rather than being forced to pitch that much.

I am not able to equate a professional athlete with $300,000,000 like Tyson or professional criminals at Enron with a 20 year old D3 pitcher who is not receiving one dime in athletic aid...but might have a chance to earn a living if he had a future.

 

No true competitor, regardless of age, will in the heat of the moment (or in this case championship) say no, even if they didn't feel ok. As stated by infelddad, isn't that  why you have coaches and managers.

I don't understand, don't people get it, over use at any level adds to injury.

I hope the NCAA steps in, this is insane!

I'll take that kid on my roster any time.  

 

Seems like every few years you hear of a kid that knows that he is down to his final few games ever and he decides to leave it all on the field.  

 

Too many people on this board seem to think every kid will play in Yankee stadium 1 day.  There are only about 1,000 MLB jobs.  Everybody else will move on with life and do something else.  This tournament could be his "world series".

 

Mean while Stephen Strasburg sat and watched his team get eliminated from the playoffs! They were picked to run away with it this year.  At this point they won't even be the wild card! 

 

Good for that kid! 

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com/bus_tour

www.twitter.com/PlayInSchool

Rich,

The pitcher is not down to his last few or last game. He just completed his sophomore campaign.

These were some of his numbers during a 13 day span from the D3 Regional to the final game of the D3 CWS:

 

44.2 innings pitches and 548 pitches...over a 13 day span. With a sophomore in college are those numbers good with you?  I fully appreciate we all want that young man on our team.  The question, to me, is whether he should be on the mound for 44.2 innings and over 500 pitches(all high stress) in 13 days, with at least 2 more years of college baseball, potentially in front of him.

This has nothing to do with playing the game after college.

Most players will not advance after HS or college, but if everyone thought that it was ok to over use those type of guys whenever they felt like it, then there would be problems. There are pitch counts and inning limits for a reason, not just because the player might play at the higher level someday.

 

 

And maybe that sophmore just may have an opportunity to play at the next level.  You don't think that his college work load wouldn't affect his draft status?  Teams keep records of this, and pay close attention.

Wow.... Totally missed the fact that he is a sophomore!

 

Totally changes things.  

 

His coach is an idiot.  Little league coaches know better then that!

 

My comments above really were based on the assumption that this was his final games.  Thanks to his coach.... it may be.  He might never be the same again.

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com/bus_tour

www.twitter.com/PlayInSchool

Infielddad made no mention of the class he was in. Why would anyone assume this might be his last game?

His coach is Scott Brosius the Yankee's world series star.  His reputation for intelligence as both coach and player is hard to usurp.  He may,or may not have done something stupid here, but calling him an idiot out of hand....is....not to...uh..bright?

 

He's the coach - he is a lot closer to the situation than us amateurs and he is pretty much an expert.  Unless your a Red Sox fan...In that case he's an idiot.

leftyshortstop,

This pitcher does not play for Linfield or Coach Brosius.

Well, over on the D3 boards, I'm amazed at the position many are taking which is that it was fine - and the glory of the national championship is worth the risk of long term injury. 

 

Dinosaurs still roam the earth I suppose...

Don't people read entire post anymore? 

 

Who pays for the arm surgery? the school? Or the parents? Who will pay for insurance premiums in the future for the pitcher, who will be hard to insure or have high insurance rates. Winning in College or HS is great, but your future is a lifetime. Ask Al Bundy

Well, I like to think I'm not dinosaur, but....

This is the biggest series of his career so far, and likely ever.  The chances of his college returning in the next two years aren't high, and a D3 relief pitcher faces long odds to even get a chance at professional ball.

 

The D3 player in question pitched 104 innings  this season. Compare that to 8 other pitcher's innings pitched: 99, 103, 107, 107, 101, 104, 107, 103.

I haven't cherry picked these pitchers-- they play for the number 1 and 2 seeds of D1 regionals which are hosted in the West.  Most of these colleges have at least one other pitcher with similar totals.

 

I'm not aware of any statistical data or bio-mechanical studies which suggest that 25 innings spread over 5 days in the course of a 104 inning season provides any greater (or lesser) risk than 100+ innings spread more evenly over a season.  On the other hand, it's reasonable to believe that on average the D1 pitchers throw quite a bit harder, and bio-mechanical studies tell us that high pitch velocity is a strong risk factor for injury.

 

We know those D1 pitchers hope to extend their number of innings pitched, some on short rest, before their college season ends.

 

So who should we be concerned about?  Which pitchers are risking their futures?

My primary objection is to the usage that day - he comes into the game as a reliever, and pitches 12 innings, facing 52 batters and throwing 152 pitches. A long days work - but not something I would say anything about given the circumstances.

 

There is then a 30 minute break between games.

 

Then he starts the second game - and pitches another 3 1/3 and 18 more hitters. I don't have a pitch count but assuming the same 2.9 pitches per batter that he did in the first game (which seems optimistic if anything), that is another 53 pitches. 

 

Total of 205 pitches, 15.1 innings and 70 batters faced on the day

 

Pitching in this manner - a long outing followed by a cool down period followed by another extended outing is definitely not on the recommended list.

3FG,

While I didn't check the season game by game, the pitcher in question is shown to have 2 starts the entire season, with a total of 104 innings in 35 games in which he pitched.

We know he had 44 2/3's innings in 8 games over 13 days including the Regional and CWS.  If my numbers are right, he pitched about 60 innings in 27 games covering a period of roughly 10 weeks.  He then throws 44 2/3's over 13 days and well over 500 pitches in 5days.  I would readily accept your perspective that there are no studies on relative risk increases but would ask if  there are any studies at all where a reliever who pitches about 6 innings per week has a huge increase over a 13 day and 5 day period such as this, with the final day, when we probably can assume the arm is most fatigued involves the innings, pitches an effort referenced by 08Dad.

These situations don't get studied. Can we assume they don't because that type of usage is so rare and by implication in the "questionable" area?

. I provided an anecdotal reference to the pitcher in 2004 who had about 20 more innings that year in total but was a starter who had less(35 innings over 13 days) innings during the Regional/CWS. He ended up being the MVP and won that CWS. His career ended with major arm surgery the following Spring, after he was a 7th round pick.Does it suggest anything beyond what happened to that arm? I don't think it does other than perhaps suggest these are examples to be studied for answers and certainly debated, which is why I started this thread.

I was not there to see the performance, but people I respect were. The pitcher in question has 1 pitch, a low 80s 2 seamer, with a ton of movement. Richards is not a pitcher that throws breaking stuff or High velocity. I would be surprised if he throws 100%. He is a smart pitcher who has very good command and his motion is smooth.

 

I am not saying this is right, I was not their to judge. I do not hink though that he can be compared to the 2004 pitcher that infielddad refers to. Richards may be an unusual specimen. If it was my kid I would not want him pitching that much, but he is a different kind of pitcher.

 

If Richards was a 100% effort pitcher throwing a lot of breaking stuff I do not think he pitches this many innings.

There are just as many on the D3 boards taking the opposing view.

BLD,

thank you for the extremely helpful input and more complete information. Certainly, the pitcher in question is very different than the 2004 pitcher who was 88-90 with a very good hard, tight, slider as a main pitch. On the other hand, the innings and pitches are much higher in this 2013 situation.

What your post and information, coupled with 3FG comments on effort/velocity brought immediately to mind is our own JH.  While his TJ situation arose earlier in the baseball year,  my communications with JH and his posting confirmed the injury occurred with innings, pitch counts and  short rest, but to a lesser extreme that the 2013 CWS illustration. Again, though, while there might not be too much velocity difference, there are other differences, and no two UCL's or pitchers are the same

The question is whether they are meaningful or not, and to whom?.

No matter what our answers, the evidence, if it evolves won't likely be known for many months and possibly longer. That is what is so challenging in these situations and also why differing views can seem  far apart.

I completely agree, and as stated I would not want my son to go through this, and would hope his coach would not put him in this position, to choose between the team vs. his own well being.

It really doesn't matter what he was throwing or how hard or if he is different than other pitchers.  Fatigue sent in at some point but adrenaline probably kept him in the game.  Or he may have not felt right but didn't say anything to anyone.

 

Sorry, this IMO is inexcusable. No good comes from pitching, then cool down and pitching again 30 minutes later, for anyone.

 

 

This is the kind of “discussion” that comes from one side viewing the situation pragmatically, using what’s currently known in the medical community, and the other side viewing it as they would a “warrior” in a life and death situation. Well baseball at the amateur level isn’t a war, and for anyone charged with looking out for the welfare of his players to treat them as if it was life and death, is a jerk.

 

The guy allowing it to happen may well be adored by people with chaws of tobacco in their mouths, a cigarette dangling from their lips, or one more swig of cheap whisky on top the swill already down their craw. But people who actually understand the dangers of allowing a young person to throw that much and have some care for a young person’s future whatever it may be, will look at it as an extremely ignorant act for no good purpose.

It sure would be interesting to hear Nolan Ryan's thoughts on all of this. I think he would say the short recovery time is a bigger problem than the actual pitch count.

 

Of course it does make a difference when it comes to the velocity.  Throwing 80mph is not as risky as throwing 95mph. If it didn't make any difference, we would not have BP pitchers. There are BP pitchers that throw hundreds of pitches around 60 mph every day. They just don't exert the same force on their arm and body as someone throwing much harder in a competitive game.  But they are still throwing with somewhat the same motion as any pitcher, they just aren't getting injured. I've often though Knuckle ball pitchers should be able to throw nearly every day. They really don't work much harder than a BP pitcher.

 

Bottom line, IMO the guy capable of throwing 80 pitches at 95 mph, would be at less risk throwing 160 pitches at 75-80 mph. Then again the guy throwing 80 might be working harder than the guy throwing 95.  But no matter what, there is always risk involved and it is the coaches responsibility to do the right thing. Safe is almost always better than sorry.

This is what I was thinking too.  I'm not sure if it is the actually velocity thrown, or what percentage of effort a pitcher is putting into it.  If a guy's max is 82, and he's throwing all game at 80, it might be worse than a guy that max's at 100 and is throwing 95.  I'm not sure that has ever been studied.  I know the people at ASMI have said the harder throwers are more at risk, but I believe they speculate that's because they are usually used more than the slower throwers.

My opinion is that the physical conditioning has a lot to do with it. Was this pitcher conditioned to throw that many pitches in that period of time or throw two games in a row 30 minutes apart? Probably not.

 

Do we have any data to support the fact that these BP pitchers have no injury issues later down the road?

 

There IS always a risk involved and in this case the coach did NOT do the right thing.

Why is it that we don't hear about things like this from D1, or professional managers and coaches, because most likely they would lose their jobs.

 

Ron Washington took the heat a few weeks back for Darvish's pitch count the day after the Rangers beat Verlander.  This is a professional pitcher who is most likely in much better condition than the pitcher who is the topic  in this discussion.

 

This coach should be fired!

 

 

Washington didn't take any heat from baseball people...only from the media.  But that situation is nothing like this anyway.  There's no doubt there are consequences to this kind of pitch count in a 13 day window.  But that's up to the two adults involved...the pitcher and the coach.  We don't need a gov't oversite committee administering pitch count rules for adults.  There's no doubt this coach will lose potential players because of this.

I can't count on my hands how many times during my time as a player I played when my arm was hurting. Yea, this is probably the reason I'm coaching at 20 but I wouldn't change it if I had the chance to. For some reason in this country we blame guns for murder, McDonald's for obesity, and education for student failure. Now we are blaming a coach for this, I'm sorry I just can't buy that. The shooter can not pull the trigger, the American can exercise and eat healthy, the student can work harder, and bet your ass that player can say NO! His arm, his future, his choice. I have seen pitchers in this situation flat out say " no this is my ball game, my tournament, my year, and I'm finishing this game." Would this happen on my team? Absolutely not, but the coach getting the blame is just something I can't agree with. Maybe I'm just a young kid with absurd ideas but this COLLEGE kid should be able to make that decision on his own.

I wonder, now that you are a coach (paid or volunteer), do you allow a hitter to steal base on his own or does he get direction from the coaching staff?  How about when up at the plate, what if he doesn't follow the sign given to him? How about for pitchers, do you allow the guys to call their own game, what happens when they throw what they want and mess up, is the coach/manager going to be happy or unhappy? 

 

So you are saying that the pitcher should have told the coach "no", because he is 20-21 years old and should know better? And because you as a player played often being hurt when younger that others should do the same?  Managers/coaches are there to protect the players from making BONEHEAD decisions, just as parents are there to protect their young players. Maybe you didn't have anyone who stood up for you or told you enough was enough.  If so that should make you a better coach at protecting young players.

 

Coaches and managers get paid to protect their players not make bonehead decisions that could hurt them later on, no matter what the future of the player. He needs to be fired.

 

Tx,

I wouldn't doubt that Washington got a call from the GM, who probably first got a call from Darvish's agent.  This is big business and any injury to any player means less money in the bank later on. It will be a long time before he goes in a game throwing that many pitches.  D3 baseball is little if at all no business so you get less people to really care about the poor guy who really has no say at all.  

 

No player ever says "no", even the highly paid ones. If they did, I wouldn't want them on my team, would you?