Pitch counts...not in the DIII CWS

At what age is one supposed to be able to stand up for himself then?  Maybe never in this welfare society we live in now where the gov't is now expected take care of everyone for life. 

 

I guess we'll see pitch counts limits in the MLB, above which the coach gets fired too, huh?  The coach made a bad decision here in my view...but it's not a fireable offense, nor should it trigger NCAA pitch count limits ala Little League.  The pitcher made his decision, hope he's happy with it and hope he's healthy.  Either way, it's a risk/return decision he made and he gets to live with.

 

As for Darvish, yes the wiz kid MBA GM supposedly did express some disappointment with that decision with Washington.  The CEO didn't, he supported the decision as did Darvish.  He was pitching on full 5 day rest, and had full 5 day rest before his next outing...he routinely throws over 100 pitches without a struggle.  Don't try to equate maybe 15 more pitches than normal to this situation.

I wasn't equating the situation, just wondering who stands up for the d3 player, the ML guy has people in his corner was my point.

I don't think it is about standing up for oneself but rather what is considered correct limits for pitchers and when the manaager/coach needs to step in. It's one thing when a guy doesn't feel well and goes in and tries to compete, he is taking that chance and another when the limits are extreme, as they were in this case. The coach has to live with the decision as well.

Bad, bad, bad. Very bad.

Funny part of all of this, it wasn't even for THE championship game.

TPM,

Before I answer your questions I want you to realize something. You do not know me. I expect people to be mature and able to make tough decisions from an early age and I feel anything short of that is an injustice to that person. It is their life, not mine. Let that person make their own decision.

 

You said this... "Don't people read entire post anymore?" Practice what you preach.

 

To answer your somewhat outrageous questions.

 

do you allow a hitter to steal base on his own or does he get direction from the coaching staff? 

If you are a quality base runner with good speed go ahead and steal the base on your own. I'm sure many coaches would agree.

 

 How about for pitchers, do you allow the guys to call their own game, what happens when they throw what they want and mess up, is the coach/manager going to be happy or unhappy?

Sure many times the players will call their own game, and if they mess up that is what happens. We review what happened and go after it more prepared the next time. 

 

So you are saying that the pitcher should have told the coach "no", because he is 20-21 years old and should know better?

Uhh... I'd hope you expect that from anyone that age. I mean they do help select our President and various other government officials. They also, if 21, have the chance to drink alcohol which comes with a lot of tough decisions. If they can't stand up and make tough decisions, we as a society have issues. 

 

And because you as a player played often being hurt when younger that others should do the same?

Once again, practice what you preach. No, I don't want my players playing hurt or being put in this situation. That isn't the point, the point is that they can say NO! 

 

Managers/coaches are there to protect the players from making BONEHEAD decisions, just as parents are there to protect their young players.

 

 

Maybe you didn't have anyone who stood up for you or told you enough was enough.

I didn't want anyone to stand up for me. Sorry TPM but the issue here is this, kids need to realize these are their decisions not their parent's and not their coach's. We as a society hinder the growth of young people because we want them to be protected from making bad decisions instead of them learning how to make good ones. If at 20-21 yo this kid isn't old enough to make decisions then maybe the best thing for him is to make a bad one on his own so he can learn the consequences. 

 

 If so that should make you a better coach at protecting young players.

 

Reread the post. Once again practice what you preach. 

 

It is more than frustrating for me to see someone say "Don't people read entire post anymore?" and then in the same. exact. thread. they go on to do exactly what they called someone out on. 

 

There are your answers to your questions. I hope you will realize that parents with mindsets such as yours are the reason that being successful and mature at a young age is such a rare thing. Many people in our society want to make decisions for our young people so they don't make bad decisions, but when it comes down to them needing to make decisions they have never done it before. I'm sorry but almost no one in our world learns from success. We learn from failure, which is why I said that I would not change the way my baseball career went. Because of this I will help players and students realize the consequences of their decisions but I will not make those decisions for them. They do not learn anything from that.

I don't expect you or others to see it my way.

I have been a proponent of pitcher over use forever and that will never change (with any amatuer).  It has nothing to do with being mature enough to be able to say NO.  These guys are not getting paid to play, the coach is being paid to make decisions to protect players, and many abuse that because they have families to feed and kids to put through college too.

 

I would never expect a player to turn down an opportunity to help his team. NO real gamer will ever give up the ball until it is taken away from him. 

junior5,

 

It doesn’t matter what you EXPECT! The fact is, most people aren’t equipped to make sound decisions at an early age. You can find proof in our country by noting that until a person reaches the age of 18, there are very few contracts they can enter into without some kind of assistance from someone being considered an adult. In your fantasy world, are all the kids making every decision with no parental control?

 

Why limit the decision to run to only “quality runner with good speed”? In your fantasy world, everyone has the ability to make those decisions on their own, so why bother to put limits on it? BTW, by definition, a hitter can’t steal a base, only a runner can.

 

In your fantasy world, there’s no reason all pitchers aren’t calling every pitch without fear of the outcome because they’re so well able to make their own decisions.

 

So in your fantasy world EVERYONE who can vote, they’re entirely qualified to do so, and if they’re legally allowed to consume alcohol they’re fully capable of understanding the ramifications for doing so. RIGHT!

 

Sure they can say no, but how many would, and why would they say or not say it? One of the 1^st thing kids playing baseball are indoctrinated on, is to be “manly”. “There’s no crying in baseball” is one manifestation of that philosophy, as is anyone rubbing the spot they got hit with the ball berated by the coaches, other players, and even the fans.

 

Well, you were very luck that no adult either took advantage of you by asking you to do things not in the best interests of your mental and physical well-being, or worse. IN your fantasy world, the best thing that can happen is for a person to get somehow injured so they’ll learn the MANLY lesson. Do you also advocate sticking a kid’s hand into boiling water so he’ll learn the consequences? After all, they’d never learn anything if they were just told not to stick their hand into the boiling water, would they?

+1.

You are right the hitter can't steal, I should have used batter. Goes to show how 'pitcher minded" I am.

As am I. Great minds think alike.

Not sure if anyone noticed but in yesterdays game UNC vs FAU, Coach Fox removed the pitcher (UNC ahead). He had thrown 89 pitches.  Coach Fox changed pitchers at that point, and FAU scored 3 runs to put them ahead, forcing another game today, in a rain delay.

 

I wasn't there, just as I wasn't there when the D3 coach overused the player mentioned in this topic so I do not know the conversation that followed, but HC coaches do not go out unless they are going to remove the player and  knowing what I do about this D1 coach, and his reputation, I am sure he didn't ask. 

 

What do you suppose would have happened if he said, no?   My understanding from this topic is that players should be mature enough to be able to make their own decision, do you suppose he said no before he left?

 

Has any player you know or known ever told their coach (HS or college) no?

Sunday, Darvish came out after 7 innings and 99 pitches.  Washington got the question from the media why he pulled Darvish so early in a 1-0 game.  His answer was interesting.  What Darvish told Washington after 6 innings was he was starting to get gassed.  After the 7th finished, Darvish said he was gassed.  Darvish never said no or I'm done.  It was the coaches decision, but a good team player tells his coach in code words what he should do.

Darvish is a 26 year old getting paid 60 million dollars and plenty of  people (agent included) watching over him.  He is not a 21 year old kid trying to be a hero.

 

Big difference. IMO.

 

 

 

Or you expect a lot more from someone you are paying so much to....

My guys did this when I was in Kentucky and it's the right way to handle things.  I want a guy out there who wants the ball but I also want a guy who is smart enough when he's losing it because that guy wants the team to win.  It's difficult to get to this stage but it requires a lot of trust on both parts.  I trust my guys to compete and give me everything they got but when they say enough then it's because it is enough.  Buy my guys trust me that I'm not going to put them in a situation where overuse will hurt them and I don't criticize their toughness when they say they have enough.

 

What about a pitcher who goes 9 innings and 150 pitches - then a week later goes out for another 7 innings and 110 pitches - then five days later another 7 innings and 120 pitches?  Little too much????

 

There has to be trust between both parties and coaches have to get their egos out of the way and either develop more pitchers (high school) or recruit more pitchers (college).

Anyone pay attention to the UNC game yesterday? Pitcher throws (lots of pitches, not sure of the number) on Saturday then on Monday comes back on one day rest with a 4 run lead and gives up 6 runs. Thoughts?

After further review... The pitcher threw 124 pitches on Saturday and then 51 pitches on Monday. He is a potential top 3 round pick this week. Thoughts?

PG, interesting situation for this thread, for sure, especially with him being a high round draft selection.  With the information  you provided about the draft, there were 3 things which came to mind last night and now one more with the draft:

1.)  It didn't take me 51 pitches to realize that kid was pitching on heart, but he had close to nothing in terms of velocity or location;

2.) Did it really take 51 pitches and a grand slam for a top coaching staff to be able to see #1?

3.) Why did they carry the other pitchers and what message does it send to them?

4.) How many MLB teams will pay attention to this, especially if it occurs in the SR with this kid. How will it affect his draft status and more importantly does it add risk for future arm injury at an earlier point? Kyle Peterson was clear and concise on his views and used the situation as the focal point for pitch counts in college baseball because the coaches just cannot be counted on to be accountable.  Sort of a sad situation, I think.

To a lesser extent, the closer for Fla. Atlantic was in a similar situation and those coaches literally sent him out there 3 times with the game won, when it was clear he had little to nothing.

Surprising to me the coach would do that when over a 60+ game schedule his stats show he has 10 different pitchers who have thrown over 10 innings all with ERAs under 4.  It would seem he would have had some better options.

Coach Fox addressed the issue, from his perspective, as reported by BA:

"

The game featured the passion and competitiveness that put college baseball in stark contrast to the minor leagues and even the majors at times. But it also featured both teams using starting pitchers on short rest out of the bullpen, one of the worst and most regrettable staples of the postseason in the college game.

“We feel like we owe it to our team to put the best guys out there to try to win the most important game of our season, to try to advance,” Fox said of his pitching moves, which later included using Sunday starter Hobbs Johnson for one batter in the 13th. “All these guys come to us and say, ‘I’ve got an inning,’ or, ‘I’ve got a batter,’ and that’s what some of them got. They are competitors. They want to go out.

“I’ll stand by our reputation. I don’t think we put any of them at risk. I’m proud of all of them for doing the job that they did.”

 

To me, this is pretty disappointing rationalizing.  While he might be the best guy on 5 days rest, is he the "best guy" on one day's rest following 124 pitches.  For me, this raises the clear question of "wining" at any risk or cost to the players. It also be a pretty good argument if the NCAA wanted to reduce rosters/scholarships/costs even further for baseball.

Some of you may know Keith Law - ESPN writer, former Blue Jay front office guy. Here is what he tweeted last night re UNC pitching decisions:

 

keithlaw ‏@keithlaw <small class="time">11h</small>

Never expected that from UNC, but tonight is inexcusable. RT @DDPcratz: @keithlaw UNC becoming the next Rice?

 

Plus a number of other snarky comments which he is very good at...

Ouch!

Just getting a chance to respond.

Of course these players are competitive, of course they are going to ask for  another inning, another at bat.  I understand how they have worked their butts off trying to get to Omaha, they won't give up. It is the coach who has to decide what is best for player, but this becomes what is best for the team. Just like the other coach, IMO, he made the wrong decision, these players ARE NOT professionals.

 

What seems to happen often on all teams is that even with a dozen pitchers on staff, the guys who the coaches have the most confidance in will  always get the ball in these situations. That's the way it is. 

 

What's really tough this time of year is that you go from conference championships, to regionals, to super regionals all in a few short weeks. It's a lot on young arms. It's disappointing.

 

Do I think that ML teams will pay attention, yes, will there be concerns, doubt it.

 

Coach Fox's pitchers seem to come out of the program pretty healthy.  I may be wrong.

 

Ok so let's hear it for the guys who say these players are mature enough to make these decisions, or do the rules change for D1 players?