Pitch selection

Here is what I throw.

Fastball around 80 % of the time.
Curveball around 14 % of the time.
Knuckle ball and changeup the rest of the 6 % of the time.

The other coaches tell me my curve ball is nasty, but I throw it maybe 2 times in an inninng. I am a reliever, so im used to getting outs fast (ground outs, pop outs, k's, etc..) So no need for me to use a curve ball.

on 0-2 counts I use my knuckle, if that fails, its the only time I use the curve. But as I said, i dont get many oppurtunites to throw the curve, or 1-2, 2-2, counts for that matter.

Just one mans opinion, though it's hard to guess without seeing him pitch...

Work off of the fastball... 75% or more fastballs against all but the very best hitters he faces.

20%-30% change... even higher to the best hitters

Use the curve ball only as a show pitch until he feels confident with it.

He's at a wonderful age to try new pitches along with the stuff he has.

I am a a big fan of the sinker or 'drop pitch'.

It will get you the ground ball most often. This in turn will get you more double plays and more outs on less pitches.

Almost all pitchers have the usual fastball, change and curve, but most hitters at most levels cannot handle a sinker.

It's a great 0-2 pitch or any time while ahead in the count.

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Other than the general statement of "work off the fastball" (the fb being where everything starts), there really is no use in asking that question.

The pitch strategy/selection will vary according to the batter, the strike zone the blue is calling, what has been thrown up to that point, the situation and what is working for the pitcher on that given day.

And pitch selection must be performed pitch by pitch.

I would be glad to share some thoughts for your son on pitch strategy. PM me if you would like.

Sort of off topic, but now is the time to start on the split finger. If he can develop a reasonable one by junior year, college coaches will be salivating. Mine learned his at 14 and I believe the pitch alone is what separated him from the crowd to get that coveted scholarship. On the other hand he went away from 80 % fastballs because catchers and coaches love calling it so it may have cost him a few earned runs. You have to set up the off speed and keep them gussing especially as the hitters improve, i.e. fastball count throw something different you can get over, 0-2 expecting the curve throw the high heat, it's a brain game

http://www.shoulder1.com/hero/hero.cfm/12/1

This might help.

quote:

Above average velocity; change-up that is good to excellent; curve ball that is a work in progress.

Your son may not be a curve ball guy. Can you describe his arm action or post a clip of him throwing?

I'll try to get some video and see if I can get it posted although I fear I may be "technilogically challenged". He throws from a three-quarter arm slot and gets good armside run. Occaisionally he unintentionnally cuts one that moves back gloveside. His instructor has tried to limit that in favor of sink and run.

My son was right where you are at two years ago-he is a lefty as well. I think the general advice concerning the emphasis on the fastball is very good.

When my son played up as a freshman and faced much bigger and stronger hitters he was very successful using his changeup as much as 30, even 40%, fastball about 50%, and curve the remainder. As he has gotten bigger and stronger he is now back to a more typical breakdown of 70 fastball, 30% changeup/curve.

14 is the earliest to start with a curve. I would still use it sparingly.

At that level I would worry less about fastballs vs. off-speed. Think more about inside vs. outside. At his age development of location/command is more important than the development of the curve. Especially if he continues to build his fastball velocity, which is more important to his long term development than is having a curve ball right now.

Practice on hitting the 4 corners of the box and then work on stretching the corners a few inches.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty's Dad:
I'll try to get some video and see if I can get it posted although I fear I may be "technilogically challenged". He throws from a three-quarter arm slot and gets good armside run. Occaisionally he unintentionnally cuts one that moves back gloveside. His instructor has tried to limit that in favor of sink and run.

There are not alot of sinker/curveball guys. Dont be suprised if he ends up using a slider as he matures.

What are some of the things that his pitching coach encourages him to do?

Works with him on not "bleeding to the plate" as he calls it (moving toward the plate too soon). Keeping the front side closed; getting the back leg up and over so as not to drag the back foot too much. You're probably right about the slider. The coach (also a lefty former SEC pitcher of the year) said he never had a really good curve and learned the slider in college because he needed a breaking pitch to go with his fastball and changeup.

Dr Andrews blames the 80+ FB for most of the arm injuries to HS age players. So do I.

You mind if I ask the name of the instructor? I'm just curious because being a lefty former SEC pitcher of the year, he must have been pretty darn good.

BHD,

Did you mean 90+ FB? I can't imagine all high school pitchers throwing under 80 MPH.

No PG his report said 80 +.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
No PG his report said 80 +.

Where is this report?

Go to ASMI and all of Dr Andrews research should be there.

A poster posted a video that was very interesting. I will see if I can find the link.

Try this link:


http://www.littleleague.org/pitchcount/pitchpresentation.htm

There are 3 video. The 3rd is Dr Andrews talking about TJ sugury and risk.

David Marchbanks...

PG,
In general pitchers are not at risk of injuring their UCLs until they reach 80+ mph. Who knows if it takes the force of an 80 mph pitch to injure the UCL for most pitchers or if it is because not many pitchers reach 80 mph until after their epicondyles close at which point they are more likely to injure the UCL than come down with little leaguer's elbow?

It may also be that less than 80 mph pitchers don't get as many innings in HS.

Sorry guys, but these doctors that blame the 80+ fastball for injuries are pure knuckleheads. These guys are pitchers. That's what they do! Show me high school senior throwing 79 and I'll show you a guy who's done with baseball. Like CADad says, the 80+ guys are getting most of the innings so of course they're more prone to injury. I suppose the doctor would recommend not riding a bicycle because you might get hit by a car. Or not dating at all for risk of s-disease. Sorry bub, but I'm going to live my life!

These guys need to stick to doctoring and leave the **** baseball to us.

Just out of curiousity... Has anyone here ever heard of a pitcher of any age who threw 81 mph and had TJ surgery?

I suppose it has happened, but I've never heard of any. If a pitcher is capable of throwing 90+ and he throws 81 mph is he a good TJ candidate? I know... that is a bad example!

My point is... Some guys throw as hard as they can to throw a certain velocity while others throw that same velocity very easily. So how can any certain speed mean a pitcher is at greater risk? Does that mean the fastest runner is more likely to blow his knee? With apologies to the great Doc Andrews... I'll answer my own question... Yes, because the fastest runner is likely to "use" his speed more often in athletic competition. Just like the pitcher with the good arm is more likely to use that arm more often.

I obviously haven't seen as many TJ cases as Doc Andrews, but I've known quite a few. Of those... every single one of them was caused by at least one of the following.
1 - Mechanical flaw
2 - Over Use, too many pitches
3 - Insufficient recovery/rest
4 - Insufficient preparation

You will never get hit with a baseball if you dont play. You will probaly never need TJ if you never throw a baseball. I guess you can play it safe and just watch it on TV. If your going to play your going to run the risk of an injury sooner or later. Train smart. Prepare properly. And try not to over throw.

As far as pitch selection learn how spot the fb and work off of that. I still feel the change up is the best off speed pitch in baseball. I always thought it was the toughest off speed pitch to pick up. I feel the same as PG just throw the cb once in awhile to show them you have it.

Dr Andrews deals with every comment I have read here in the video.
Personally I think he is just looking at results of his personal fact gathering. This is not nealy enough data to make solid conclusions.
Ther are lots of things that could cause his conclusions to be skewed in the wrong direction. Things like body type, better reporting of injury and many other things.
He was only referring to LL/HS players.

Two things happen when you throw at higher velocities. 1. You approach the maximum force that the UCL is able to resist and risk damaging the UCL. 2. You build up the UCL and some of the muscles that help take load off the UCL until they become fatigued (that's why overuse becomes an issue).

If you don't throw that hard you aren't going to have a UCL problem unless you've got a weaker than normal UCL in the first place.

If you do throw hard then you're at risk, but hopefully you either genetically are blessed with a stronger than normal UCL or have managed to build the UCL up without injuring it.

If a young pitcher throws hard then they are at risk. The question is how to best protect that young pitcher without compromising their ability to improve.

Ideally, one would structure a throwing program that would stress the UCL without ever getting to the point of a full on injury, thereby allowing it to get stronger. Unfortunately, we don't have a way to determine exactly how much each pitcher or thrower can handle and still be developing rather than damaging their UCL and it is different with every pitcher.

So, we just do our best to protect them from people insisting that every pitcher should follow the Dice-K routine and yet realize that one of the risks of throwing 90 mph is TJ surgery for some.

PG,
In just our program we had an infielder with about a 70 mph arm shut down for 6 weeks with a very minor UCL tear primarily due to throwing through pain because he was afraid he'd be cut if he didn't and a 81 mph, max effort, pitcher who had a partial tear that rehabbed without surgery. This kid injured his elbow throwing a complete game at the end of summer ball the previous season after not throwing more than a couple innings max for all of summer ball then going out and playing shortstop the next day. He covered it up through most of winter ball but the problem was so obvious we finally we got the dad to send him to a doctor. He was high 70s when he first injured it.

CADad,

Thanks for that very good information. I guess the amount of risk does change from one arm to the next.

While every pitcher is at risk, especially high velocity pitchers... Why do some throw so many high velocity pitches without having TJ surgery. Nolan Ryan... Did he have that much stronger UCL than everyone else? Or was it something else that kept him away from blowing his elbow? Or was he simply another exception to the rule?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
CADad,

Thanks for that very good information. I guess the amount of risk does change from one arm to the next.

While every pitcher is at risk, especially high velocity pitchers... Why do some throw so many high velocity pitches without having TJ surgery. Nolan Ryan... Did he have that much stronger UCL than everyone else? Or was it something else that kept him away from blowing his elbow? Or was he simply another exception to the rule?

I have recently read that through specific training for basketball players, they have developed an exercise routine to prevent almost all ACL injuries. So, I'm wondering if there may be a possibility of preventing the UCL injuries through some sort of an exercise program. I know Clemmens and Ryan were and are big on weight lifting and exercising. Might be the Pitcher's routine that causes or prevents these types of injuries. Might be a study for the pain guy, huh? If you could figure it out, you may be a rich man.

Did anyone actually listen to what he said about higher velocity in young pitchers and tearing the UCL?
The main culprits:
Year round throwing
seasonal overuse
event overuse
early breaking pitches (listen to what he says about them)
velo>80
inadequate warm up
showcases (bad ones, hear his example)

Listen carefully to what he says regarding velo over 80.
Young pitchers that throw harder are also the ones that are, for example, over used, in other words they fall into the other categories that are the culprits. He spoke about parents and the radar gun encouraging more mph than necessary.

I understand the tables he used, but the whole idea was why subject younger pitchers to the above when their ligaments are not stronger yet.

In other words, I get the feeling he's telling everyone, you're pushing things wayyyyyyyyy to early.

TPM I did and he also said he had nothing against Breaking balls.

I got the feeling he was inconclusive about many findings and was giving his opinion on the results of his surguries.
There are lots of reasons why surguries are way up.

We all have our opinions based on the experiences we have seen been through etc etc. What I can say is I saw alot of very good arms as my son was growing up playing around the entire state of NC. You constantly saw these kids on the mound. Everytime we played a tourney there they were on the mound pitching. Friday night for 7. Back on Sunday for the championship game for 7. Many played on local teams in their area and pitched during the week dominating the competition. Then came fall ball. So they were constantly pitching at least 9 to 10 months out of the year. These same kids are now no longer pitching at all. Numerous arm problems from growth plate issues to shoulder problems etc etc. It is just sad to see. The fact is the coach "many times the dad" wanted to showcase this arm. They wanted to win. Overuse is the biggest culprit imo.

quote:

Just out of curiousity... Has anyone here ever heard of a pitcher of any age who threw 81 mph and had TJ surgery?

Other than Tommy John, no.

BHD,
He did say 25 breaking balls in a row are bad. I liked his example of the showcase where the catcher had to throw repeatedly (100 times) to second.

If you listen and understand, it's not necessarily just one thing, it's all these things combined at a young age. Being encouraged to throw harder (with gun), year round throwing (thank you travel teams) seasonal overuse (tournaments together in a short period of time) event overuse (CM's example), not warming up especially when it is cold, and using the breaking ball too much. OUCH.

Using coach May's example, put that together with too many breaking balls, trying to throw your hardest, etc. there is a recipe for disaster. How about the youngster that pitches AND catches? Same game?
I went to a tournament this year pre HS, the dads were using the gun on the kids in a GAME. How about just in bullpen? What WAS the POINT?

My son threw hard at an early age, we never gunned him until late sophmore in HS but you knew he was throwing hard. So with that we eliminated the year round, the breaking balls, insisted on rest and pitch counts.

Dr. Andrews is presenting his facts based on findings on what is happening in youth baseball.

That's the point.

TPM I agree with what you are saying and I think all parents/coaches/players should view his video.
I really believe that many kids do not get the benefit of proper training and coaching. My son to this day will not pitchw without 4 days rest. Yes he prodominately was a CB pitcher who was checked by his doctor twice a season to make sure there were no issues developing. He was checked for many things including things like elbow bone chips, stress unlnar and loose shoulder etc.
I think body type has a lot to do with what you can do. I also think that many young guys don't report when they feel something going on that doesn't feel quite right.

BHD,
Yes you have good points.

I would like to point out as a young pro pitcher, in my son's system they pitch on 4 day starts. Pitch, rest, BP,rest, pitch, etc. with pitch counts.

So, IMO, save the arm for when it really counts.

TPM it is funny several of the pitchers that I know in the minors got arm injuries there. Also a lot in college. Go figure.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
TPM it is funny several of the pitchers that I know in the minors got arm injuries there. Also a lot in college. Go figure.

Because, it is accumulative.