OVER 150 for 7 innings...?

 

MUY MUCHO LOCO...!!!

 

 

 

ECTIGER93,

 

Is this College, HS, or some lower level of ball?

 

As a parent, I think its shortsighted, stupid, and dangerous. But, whether or not its against some rule is something else. If it were my kid and it was HS or below, there’d definitely be a conversation between me and the coach taking place very soon.

I'm thinking recruiters would be glad to see the parents pull him from the team if his arm is being abused. If they don't he won't have an arm left to impress the scouts with.

To who are you going to report the coach to?  If it were my child and he were still in HS this maybe one of the few things I request to talk to the coach about.  Normally I let my child handle things but this is getting into an area where someone could get hurt.  I would approach the meeting as more of a discussion about the coaches philosophy regarding pitch counts.  I would not be adversarial and would arm myself with research on appropriate pitch counts before the meeting.  If I felt like it wasn't going to happen again I would leave it at that.  If I felt that the coach was planning on pitching kids up to this limit going forward I would escalate my issues to the AD.

 

If it was college its up to the kid to approach the coach.

 

We played a 14U travel tourney last year.  The opposing coach had a bug up his butt for our team.  Long involved reason but it centers around jealously.  They had never beaten our team and he was going to find a way to do it when they played us last year.  He had one pitcher who he thought could beat us.  He decided to ride him into the 10th inning.  At some point the kid was at 135-140 pitches for the game (7th or 8th inning if I remember correctly) and there was no one warming up.  I was keeping book for us.  In between innings when the coach was walking over to coach 3rd base I mentioned to him that his kid was approaching 150 pitches.  His response "Shut Up".  I can tell you if it was my kid as a parent I would have pulled him off the mound and probably off the team.

Over 150 pitches in HS is always too many, in February it is criminal!

 

We had this same topic thread just a few weeks back.  I've never been a steadfast strict pitch count type of person, it also depends on if they are grinding innings, or cruising, but for 150, that would average over 20 pitches per inning, and understand this -- innings are not equal, there were likely innings closing in on 30.

 

I was a little concerned last week when Jr. threw 87 pitches in his second start....coach made it a point the next day to let me know that it wasn't his plan to go that long, just got caught up in the close game.  Coach will let pitchers know in advance when they will start so they can plan their bullpen, side work, etc., leading up the start so they are fresh.

 

Here is my opinion on your questions:

 

* Should the coach be reported? Don't know who you would report him to other than AD, but likely not reported.

*Do the coaches on here feel this is acceptable? Absolutely not.

*Do the HS/College coaches expect to be called out by parent because of abuse? I know there are coaches on here that say "butt out stupid parents".  I would believe any coach who did this would not be surprised to be called out by the player, parent, or any other concerned adult.

*What would this board parents do in that situation?  Never allow a son to reach that pitch count by any means necessary.

My 2015 has been throwing bullpens since mid-Jan. Threw approx. 60 pitches in four innings during practice game week before last. He threw 110 last Friday night in 7 innings with 25 of those in last inning. It was around 55-60 degrees. He's 6'2", 205. Mom thought 110 was too much. I didn't. His pitching coach growing up just happened to be at game. He didn't think so either. My son didn't either but he didn't want to come out of game so his opinion is tainted. 

I can normally tell when my son is laboring and he really wasnt. His velocity seemed to be down in the 7th but kind of hard to tell. In some ways, I wish I had been clocking him but didn't want to be one of those dads last Friday but even if I could quantify a slight decrease, it wouldn't have mattered. I wouldn't have told the coach during the middle of an inning.

I'm just a dad with basically no formal baseball instruction but 150, yes, Seems excessive to me. 

Absolutely not ok.  Sorry, but if my son hits 100 the first couple weeks of the season I'm considering going down and pulling him myself.  I'm fairly certain our coaching staff has no idea how many pitches a kid is throwing....they never have.   He threw 115 in a JV game 2 years ago as a freshman....very early in the season.  I went down between innings as he was in the on deck circle....and told him he was done...and if the coach had an issue, he knew where I was.  He went back to SS...and someone else threw the last inning....and I never got any grief from the coach....then or since.  Sorry, but no HS game is worth a kid throwing 150....and even if this was college, that's an insane number for February. 

Seems like way too many. What game could be that important so early in yr in coaches mind?  Also curious how many curve balls were thrown in  comparison to FB

It you let it go it will happen again.

Not okay in my book this early or ever for that fact.  If it is a lower level, say JV, I would be questioning why aren't they developing other pitchers?

 

I think pretty much everyone would agree that 150 pitches is excessive.  I can only think of one possible exception and this is a reach...  There are three coaches on our staff who throw to hitters in the cages and on-field.  It is not uncommon for each of us to throw in excess of 3-400 pitches, sometimes twice in a week.  We are all older and our arms are not what they used to be.  My point is that if the pitcher is more of a smooth throwing control guy, it may not be as bad as it seems.

 

I know that, in a previous thread where you also questioned the actions of a coach, you mentioned your son is a P.  As a dad of a P, I would certainly want to have an understanding of what pitch count parameters are used for the protection of my son's arm.  As a coach, I would certainly be OK with that type of question from the parent.  Know that each pitcher is different and the guideline for one may be different than that of another.

 

 

cabbagedad, it's a whole lot different throwing bullpens at 60%-70% max effort vs. throwing in a game at 90%-100% effort.  I throw BP and 150-200 is my limit too (and I ice when I get home).  Our arms, and legs, and sides, and knee's, and everything else would blow up if we tried to throw 150 at max.

What are you talking about?  I have to throw 90-100% just to get it there

 

I know what you are saying and I agree.  In my "stretch" scenario, I was describing a guy who really doesn't throw 90-100% off the bump.

I think the best way to handle this is for the parent and his son to have a talk about pulling himself out of the game either when shoulder or arm pain is felt or when a specific PC is reached.   

 

I keep PC now of all the pitchers from both teams, mostly out of curiousity.

 

Dr. Andrews has a recommended Pitch count and a recommended days of rest depending on pitch count.  I think that is as good a place to start as any.

 

Table 1: Recommended Pitch Counts by Age

Age	Max. Number of Pitches (Per Start)
7-8	50
9-10	75
11-12	285
13-16	95
17-18	105

 

Table 2: Days of Rest Required Based on Pitch Count

Pitch Count (Ages 7-16)	Pitch Count (Ages 17-18)	Days of Rest Required After Pitching
1-20	1-25	0
21-40	26-50	1
41-60	51-75	2
61-more	76-more	3

 

I stumbled across this, and bought it.  Works great, keeps pitch count totals for two pitchers at a time, you can hit a button, and the pitch count is tallied in balls / strikes, and at 75 pitches, and every 10 pitches thereafter it alarms (short beep).

 

http://www.baseballexpress.com...t.jsp?productId=4456

 

 

 

My son didn't have a coach at school who knew anything about pitching from 7th grade through high school. The first week of 7th grade practice the coach had my son throw BP to ten hitters in 30+ wind chill in early March. That's a 5'2", 110 kid throwing 100+ pitches. He came home and told me about it. Because I was friends with the middle school AD I sent him information about pitching limits. It would have been awkward if I didn't know him. The coach never held it against me or my son.

 

In high school my son refused the ball under the same conditions coming from a position with zero warm up. He asked to be taken from the game for one hitter to get loose on the sidelines. The coach didn't talk to him for a week for refusing the ball. From then on my son often threw in the bullpen in between innings late in the game.

 

Fortunately, my son was mostly a closer. He started twice when they had an extra game in a week. He went the distance throwing about 120 pitches both times. The coach was known for going with pitchers until the barn was on fire or they finished.

Wow! I didn't realize Dr. Andrews was REALLY, REALLY, REALLY optimistic on the durability of 11-12yo's!

LOL!  Good catch. 

 

That must be 11-12 y.o. from Texas.  Cuz everything is bigger and better in Texas.

Maybe that's why so many 13 year old pitchers are having surgery these days!

 

A couple years ago, I saw a 14 y.o. throw 125 pitches in 1+ innings.  He was the only pitcher on a really bad j.v. team.  The other team pulled all their starters from the game in the first inning after they had batted around twice.

 

 

I'm honestly not comfortable with 100+ in HS, even varsity. Pro players don't routinely go very far past that point, and they are far better conditioned and monitored for that workload. 150 is insane.

 

I've seen 12-14u players throw 120 in a game, and 180 in 36 hours, and in at least 3 cases the dad's were involved as coaches and fine with it. I'm thankful my kid's control was poor enough, and many of his coaches short-sighted enough about it, that he didn't pitch much before getting to HS, and his HS coaches are firm believers in tracking pitch counts.

Part of the concern here is that the damage done today may not show up right away.

 

I'd come to an understanding with the coach; and, it seems to me that Dr. Andrews' tables would serve as a good foundation for that discussion. 150 pitches is abusive and no coach has the right to abuse a player.

Unfortunately this is not uncommon in HS. I know parents are told to not intervene on issues like this but I know 2 very strong 15 year olds who are not throwing this spring because of what HS coaches did to them last spring when it was 35 degrees and a inch of snow on the ground. 

About 10 years ago as a HS freshman I pitched ourfirst game of the season for the JV  which went 10 innings. I went the distance and had 142 pitches. We were scoreless through 9 and I ended up giving up a run in the top of the 10th and we lost 1-0. The other team didn't have a pitcher go more than 3 innings as the temp was below 40. My Dad (a baseball guy) was pissed off at my JV coach for doing that to a 14 yr old kid. Being 14 at the time didn't think better of it during the game and was going off adrenaline towards the end. I'm assuming the JV coach told the varsity coach about my outing and he wasn't happy he let me throw 142 pitches because that evening I received a call from my JV coach apologizing.  My arm was so sore the next day I don't think I picked up a baseball for a week.

Last chance to intervene on your son's behalf is in high school.  Nobody knows your child and their injuries/limits like you do.  My son is part of a very high level travel team, and the coach for that team pulled me aside a couple weeks ago and said "he's throwing great - make sure he doesn't get overpitched during HS season". Likely because he knows I would have no problem intervening.  I rarely speak to the HS coach, other than "great game, coach".  But in an overpitching instance, you may need to step in.  Coaches just have too much incentive to overpitch, and it's all good until it's not.  JMO.

When my younger son was a sophomore, his new high school coach kept him in a game (a tourney championship game) into the eighth inning, throwing 122 pitches. The games was tied and he had pitched well with 95 pitches for seven innings. I was sure he would be pulled but that coach let him walk three guys, hit a batter and give up a hit in the eighth before he pulled him. You could see during the first batter that inning that he had nothing left. I was furious. After the game I pulled the coach aside and told him that would never happen again. He made some nitwit excuse that it seemed to him that he still had good stuff. I asked him what game he was watching. I chewed him out telling him if he was going to coach baseball he better learn something about it. He was in his first year but had been an assistant for nine years somewhere else. He was pretty much a knucklehead who once sacrifice bunted twice when our team was down 12-3 and 12-5 in the same game.

 

He never again abused that son or my older son's arms. But on the second to last game of the season he started a promising sophomore who had pitched three innings all season and had not thrown more than one or two bullpens all year. He let him throw 144 pitches in seven innings. So this guy never learned, he was just scared of me. Say what you want about me approaching him like that but I was so mad he's lucky that's all I did.

 

The next year he let a very good transfer who would later get signed by a DII team thrown 156 pitches in 6-plus innings. These are games I watched and counted pitches. That guy is still at this school because it is like a lot of small Texas schools--only football and basketball count. 

 I believe that this happens a lot in HS. There are a bunch of people on here that usually chime in and defend HS coaches, and HS way's, but they seem to be pretty quiet on this thread. I can personally say I have never came close to hurting a kid's arm, I have pulled kid's out of big games and ruined their no hitter, I have looked in their little competitive eye's on the mound and had to make a decision. Mom and Dads have asked me a few times why and I would explain and sometimes they realize and thank you later.

 

 We once had a kid who signed to a big12 school pitching a no hitter in the top of the 7th, but his pitch count was a little high so we kept a close eye on him. After 7 foul balls to the #8 hitter we pulled him. You should of heard all the mumbling in the ballpark. The big12 coach came down and thanked me for pulling him before I could get back in the dugout, Dad gives me a big thumbs up and his huge family is cheering for him. Only a few people understood what was going on. Over the next 24 hours as people got educated on this procedure, my staff was regarded as the best, smart, looking out for their future, and so on. To me this was a no brainer to pull the kid 12 pitches under his season high. I don't need a perfect game, or a no hitter today, what I need is a healthy kid going to school next year.

 

 PS We won the game 4-1

Well since you're wondering where the defense is let me just say I was going to post something last night but fell asleep mid sentence on my magical recliner.  I call it magical because it tends to make me fall asleep whenever I sit in it.  I tried to make a post today but this whole teaching things sorts keeps me from doing it.  But I'm done with classes for the rest of the day and now I have to go paint a soccer field and softball field before 4 PM today.  Maybe tonight when I get home around 11 PM I can finally post something.  Not going to make any promises because I still have that magical recliner.  If you would like a reference towards my thinking of pitching (as a HS coach who gets lumped into that huge category of not knowing what to do because as a teacher I have no ability to learn or grasp basic baseball concepts) you can check out the thread where the guy is wondering if after a week of practice their pitchers haven't thrown a bullpen.

 

Peace out - going to inhale paint fumes now.

Reminds me of my son's last HS game a few year back.  State quarterfinals with our ace pitching.  Our ace had a 95 mph FB and had been drafted earlier that day (6th round).  Was not having a great day.  He managed to get to through the 6th inning and my son's team had a precarious 3-2 lead.  I knew his pitch count had to be over 100 but wasn't quite sure how high - had given up 10 walks - 3 intentional.   7th inning comes and coach sends him to LF and brings in a reliever.  I know there were some who questioned why he did this - especially in light of the fact that our reliever only managed getting one batter out, but gave up a walk and 2 critical hits (yeah, we lost....).

 

Come to find out our ace had thrown 127 pitches and coach had seen enough.  He wasn't going to risk his future career on a HS game.  Besides he wasn't the only reason the team had gotten as far as it did.  There were other contributors as well.  Win as team and lose as a team.

 

 

I think there are a few reasons things are fairly quiet from the HS coach corner on this one...

 

-150 is obviously excessive and doesn't really elicit much of a response.

 

- This is second post where OP has questioned coaching decisions and there was lots of dialog on that one, so some may not see the need to re-hash.

 

- The main underlying question, I believe, has already been answered.. talk to the coach and make sure there are reasonable safety measures in place for your son.  And, I think BFS answered the OP's specific questions quite well.

 

FWIW - Our program is quite conservative.  We have a very gradual build-up process for pitchers, very similar to what Coach2709 described in his previous thread.  We had our first scrimmage game last night.  All players who pitched have gone thru a bullpen build-up and thrown an inning or two of inter-squad over the last several weeks.  We played 8 innings and threw five pitchers according to a preset schedule.  No player threw more than two innings and none exceeded 40 pitches.  Last year, over a 24 game schedule, only twice did a pitcher exceed 100 pitches and that was barely and was toward end of season when arms had been ramped up to that number.

 

There are a few schools around here that, in my opinion, throw kids too long but they are the exception.  Most are quite responsible about it.  Many will throw 5-7 innings but only if their count is reasonable and they are still throwing strong.  I can probably remember the handful of times over the last five years I have seen an opponent throw a guy over 115- 120 pitches.  A quick scan of Maxpreps shows the highest pitch count for any team in our area last year was about 125.  Looks like most teams only hit that 110 - 120 count maybe once during the season.  The vast majority of starts are kept under 100.  I realize our area is a very small sampling.

Cabbagedad, Your kid's are lucky, it sounds like they are in a great program.

I know the OP was regarding HS players, and pitch counts (I think), however this is somewhat relevant.

 

Was watching MLB Tonight, and the conversation came up with the new obsession with setting up an innings limit for young pitchers with big contracts.  They were discussing whether St. Louis was going to have a limit on innings for Wacha, same as they did for Strasburg, and were going to do for Harvey, prior to his injury.

 

Ron Darling indicated that GM's and Owner's were cautious with young big arms that are attached to big contracts (or will be soon).  Darling mentioned, "these young men were abused by overuse by coaches at the youth, high school, and college levels, and so they come up to the "bigs" with mileage on their arms".  I found that statement interesting, although I know it was an over generalization.

 

I also remember hearing about a camp / clinic that either Dr. Andrews or Dr. Jobe gave where MLB had him lecture on proper protocols regarding limiting injuries to pitchers.  Innings, pitch counts (overuse in general), along with mechanics, etc., were used as general guidelines on how to "reduce" arm injuries.  At the end of the clinic, he left with this parting statement (paraphrased) - "even with all of the topics covered over the past few days, and adhering to every one of them, the truth of the matter is the medical community just DOESN'T know how to prevent arm injuries in pitchers". 

 

I have heard it mentioned before, and I don't know if I believe it, however there is a train of thought out there that subscribes to the notion, that a pitcher, regardless of perfect mechanics, not being overused, etc., has a specific number of "bullets" (pitches) prior to some type of physical failure / injury.  Each pitcher is different in how many "bullets" they have.  Now I am not saying you don't increase, or decrease odds with a common sense approach, but the truth is not many understand the real cause of injury as it relates to a very unnatural motion for throwing a baseball overhand in a very violent manner.

 

I get emails daily from a pitching "guru", that markets his pitching program online as the one, and only program based on proven "science".  While I agree with him on a lot of what he says, and I even flew Jr. out to his neck of the woods to work with him in the past, he landed with egg on his face.  As soon as Matt Harvey took MLB by storm last season, he was using him as a poster child as an example of the mechanics he taught.  Every day he referenced Harvey in one way or another......then Harvey got hurt.  The silence was deafening regarding Harvey....likely he was taking time to think on how he was going to react to the injury, after he was telling everyone that Harvey's mechanics was the gateway to throwing hard, injury free, with proper mechanics.  This "guru" all of a sudden came up with, "I found the one component of his mechanics that is the cause of the UCL strain, and "nobody else would have caught this but me".  Funny, how his mechanics prior to the strain were flawless, but all of a sudden, he knew exactly why he was injured.  His reasoning, was because he "long arms" the ball, which is "what ONLY traditional, non-informed pitching coaches teach".

 

Anyway, just wanted to throw in some information that relates to high pitch counts.  Yes, I stand firm that high pitch counts at the youth level are not a good thing.  I don't know whether HS coaches knowlingly put kids in a dangerous situation, I suspect a few do, however I also respect the many that are well informed, under paid, and often criticized.  Many don't realize that "in the day" 150 pitches was nothing for a starting pitcher, and guys like Gibson used to do it all the time.  In fact, some folks are wondering if the injuries occurring today are a result of "underuse".  The body will (for the most part) be able to accomplish just about anything it trains itself for.  With such strict adherence to pitch counts, inning limitations, mandatory "no throw" periods, we certainly are not training for heavy loads.  It is possible that is also part of it.

I will often urge parents to stay out of HS coaching issues, but a key exception to this is anytime the player's health or well being is put at risk.

 

In this situation, a meeting with the coach is called for.  Take care to present your position respectfully.  It could be that the coach simply lost track.  Perhaps he is the only guy in baseball who doesn't understand that this is a major concern.  So remain respectful.  But also firm, as the meeting must conclude with the point being made that this must not happen again, not to your son, not to any player.  After that meeting I would be keeping a watchful eye/ear out for things that would indicate intransigence, e.g., snide comments to the player at practices or behind his back to other players; refusal to pitch or play the kid in later games, etc.  Such actions would indicate resentment at having legitimate concerns raised and would in my opinion justify an effort to have the coach removed since that would be the only way to assure no recurrence.

 

I would emphasize that entering a room with an aggressive stance or tone of voice is not acceptable.  Neither is beginning this discussion with the attack e-mail.  Neither is immediately going to coach's superiors.  The man is entitled to a presumption of innocence and the presumption that he will listen to reason -- at least until he demonstrates otherwise.

 

If this were in college, then the parent has no role.  College players are adults.  Sons must learn to handle such things themselves. 

 

<div class="quoteHeading">Originally Posted by Back foot slider:</div>
        <div class="quotedText"><p> Many don't realize that "in the day" 150 pitches was nothing for a starting pitcher, and guys like Gibson used to do it all the time.&nbsp; In fact, some folks are wondering if the injuries occurring today are a result of "underuse".&nbsp; The body will (for the most part) be able to accomplish just about anything it trains itself for.&nbsp; With such strict adherence to pitch counts, inning limitations, mandatory "no throw" periods, we certainly are not training for heavy loads.&nbsp; It is possible that is also part of it.</p></div>
        <br />

I'm glad someone else brought this up first. This has been my argument for years. June 14, 1974. Angels vs. Red Sox. Nolan Ryan 235 pitches. Luis Tiant 187 pitches.

If you look at what the Japanese do with pitchers, both professional and high school. It is not at all uncommon to have a pitcher throw 125 or more pitches in a game and then throw a full speed bullpen of 100 pitches the next day. Their rate of injury to pitchers is far lower than ours. You often hear of Japanese pitchers coming to the majors and suffering arm problems after a couple of years. the "experts" want to blame it on overuse while they played in the Nippon League, but I think it may be that they get over here and are put on strict pitch counts that are counter to a carrer's worth of specific conditioning.

I believe that throwing 100+ pitches in a game isn't bad. What's bad is throwing 100+ pitches after you've babied your arm for four or five days. It's a progression. My kid has thrown over a 100 pitches as an 11-13yo a few times (go ahead - call me a criminal). regardless of how many pitches he's thrown on Sunday, he will throw an 80 pitch, full speed bullpen on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. I believe this has been key to keeping his arm healthy. The only arm injury he ever had was a badly strained bicep throwing from third to first. I've done this with most of my kids and they stay healthy and throwing hard all year.

Same type of thing happened to 2016 last year.Did not say anything after 1st game.But when his next start was complete 2016 PC was even higher than 1st start.20 yrs. ago on my first go round I would have had no problem treating this guy in his dugout like he was treating my 2016 on the field.Please don't reply to this statement because it just would not have bothered me.But after reading this fine blog and aging 20 yrs. I took the high road and sent a respectful email. According to experienced V H C It was 2016's FAULT.Walked too many with 0-2 count .HBP. he had other pitchers hurt.Of course nothing was said about HIS teams 9 errors in 6.Experianced coach stated 2016 would have lower PC as he gained V experience.After reading email I really wondered if the 20 year ago thing wouldn't have been a better option.