Pitcher vs position players

Hoping that PG responds to this post regarding HS lefties vs. most college pitchers getting drafted.

Some say that pitchers should sign out of HS. Some feel that it is better for their arm (less load). We knew this when son was in HS, but we were told by many the college pitching coach would protect his arm and work out the kinks better than most milb (that was 4 years ago). Also my son did not want to spend a season or two in complex ball, where you can with many teams as a draftee out of HS.
Remember that some pitchers can come with arm problems out of HS as well as out of college. I think that it is just a personal decision whether one wants to begin their career after HS or go to college first.
One thing, bbscout's sons went to college before they were drafted (not pitchers). He also would tell you, as he told me once, if it isn't about the money, sign out of HS, if it is, go to college.
Best of luck to your son.

I have no advice for you. Your all alone on this decision. Learned years ago, that giving advice when it comes to which college, sign pro or not, etc. is a bad habit to get into. There's always a chance that in the end you will have given what turned out to be the worst possible advice.

That said, I do believe pitchers risk more by going to college than position players do. However, those that do well and stay healthy might find it well worth that risk. Left or right doesn't matter, the round does matter. Lefties are at a premium, but so are the top RHPs.

It doesn't make any difference whether HS lefties are drafted before most college pitchers. The only thing that matters is where YOUR HS Lefty is projected to go in the draft. Sooner or later, you have to decide on a round (or $$$$ amount) the scout needs to give you a clue to what round they are talking about. This will either make the decision easier or maybe tougher. But it's all up to you!

To each his own! Best of luck no matter what decision is made.

A nice problem to have Clint. I read somewhere that a college educated person will likely make about one million more over the course of his lifetime than a non-college educated individual. This may be more or less depending on the school, degree, ect. Then there is the injury issue with pitchers. I feel for you guys though. Its an issue of getting the real chance to live the dream, and the college exp is one that every kid should have the chance to live as well. Good luck whatever you guys decide. Bet you never thought that youd have this problem when you were watching him play about 10 years ago. Glove too big, hat doesnt stay on straight, its really nice to think back on those times..Id do it all again in a minute.

I think that PG has given great stuff to think about.
Scouts will tell you certain things because they want to draft your son (the same way we say college coaches will say things to sign your son), but they will be leary of early rounds if they think he has signing issues, no matter what the level.
It is a good problem to have. Most know that I am pretty much on a player going to college (unless he gets compensated fairly for his pick and feels happy with it). I do beleive, that college helped son in many ways and he had lifetime experiences and friendships he will cherish always, but that was what was good for him and it worked out well.

I can tell you that things may have been different if not for his pitching coach at college. There are definetly things to think about for pitchers going pro after HS.

Could someone take a moment and explain what "Signing Issues" are. Thx.

Signabilty can be a big factor in the draft for some players. Their commitment to going to college is so strong that teams are leary of picking them early, as they do not want to waste a pick on an early draft choice. Many players also make it known that they will not sign for less than a certain amount (for various reasons) and this also may cause a player to fall in the draft or not be drafted at all.

One thing to consider and keep in mind is that, if your son is drafted in an early round and chooses to sign, the amount of money included under the MLB scholarship by the team should factor into the decision. If he signs out of high school and has good college money included in his contract, then he can still pursue a college education at little to no expense in the event he suffers a career ending injury, or his career doesn't pan out in the first few years.

As for 'signability' issues, over the last few years financial expectations on the part of high school players from the region I live in has caused more legitimate HS draft picks to not be selected than any other issue. I can't begin to convey how many kids want "1 million dollars" even though they might be worth $100,000 or fewer dollars. Unrealistic financial expectations are a serious issue as regards many players, at least here in California.

Eaiset way to describe this is last year. Kid was projected highly. Most had him as top 5 round guy. he fell to the 20th rnd. His asking price ws around 2 million. Hence every MLB team backed off and he was drafted in the 20th rnd. He was offered top 5 round money but decided school was the way to go for him. There are a million cases like this. (although for this case I believe he really wanted to go to school)
Other signability issues are kids that sign with Stanford are tougher to sign than kids that signed juco. The Stanford kid will drop rounds and the juco kid will stay where he is slotted or move up a little bit.

The decision needs to be made as a collective group. Family, coaches, and the kid. There is no right way to go about it. Just make the best possible educated decision and enjoy the ride.

More important than than the bonus is...does your son want the college experience?
Life in the minors can be a boring grind. Sure its great to play baseball..but it comes with a life style not everyone is suited to... months and miles away from home, very very few days off to rest the body. It can be very lonely and boring.

quote:

but it comes with a life style not everyone is suited to... months and miles away from home, very very few days off to rest the body.

The same could easily be said about college baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by Ben_08:

quote:

but it comes with a life style not everyone is suited to... months and miles away from home, very very few days off to rest the body.

The same could easily be said about college baseball.

College comes with a support system.
I can tell you personally that there are significant differences between the college experience and the pro experience.

Please go ahead and list out the major differences.

a few i see.at the milb level.

1) first time in your baseball life your playing for you.

2,3) finding a place to live.that is near enough to the field that you can get there,if you don't have transportation.

4) filling idle time,on the road.with 25 guy's,some of whom may not speak english.

don't get me wrong,most every guy on the planet would change places for free. but it isn't campus life by any means.

I have decided to jump in on this thread to offer up my take on this subject. It's a good question;

Our family is going through this same process too. Son and I have talked at length about the chances of injury to his arm (or any other part of his body!) in college. We have talked also about the "college experiance" and the fact that college at 18 and college at 26 are two very different experiances. I would offer my opinion that he would benefit from an extra few years of growth and training. He would counter with "I think I'm ready" and the always popular "I just want to play ball". It has actually been pretty fun.... in a slightly scary way.

All I have to offer is the method we used to come up with our plan. I believe it is applicable to both pitchers and position players. At least IMHO.

1. Secure an opportunity to play ball at a college that "fits". Do your research. Does the coaching staff produce pitchers and players that are successful at the next level? If the answer is yes, then I'm betting that avoidable injuries such as overuse of a pitcher, are not a big problem. Other injuries just happen, amateur or pro. Remember, young men are much more likely to get a career ending injury in their car then they are on the field. All I'm trying to say is, don't let the fear of an injury stop your son from playing college baseball if he has the opportunity. Make sure your son understands the value of a college education. Remind him that he will only be 18 once, make the most of it. College is neither a demotion nor a punishment!

2. Ask your son if he is really sure that he wants to play pro baseball. If his answer is yes (which it will be), ask if he has done his research. Life in the minor's is not a cakewalk. It takes hard work, desire, sacrifice and a fair amount of luck to make it. It is not easy (worthwhile things rarely are). The odds are that he won't make it. How will he handle life after baseball? I am not advocating planning for failure, I'm just saying that a Plan "B" might be a good thing.

3. Once #1 is taken care of and the answer to #2 is a firm yes, an important decision will have to be made. It's unfortunate, but money is still a pretty popular commodity in the world we all live in and it has to figure in to the decision process at some point. Decide what amount of money it will take to make it worthwhile to put off college as well as giving up the opportunity to play college baseball. Factor in living expenses while in the minor's as well as expenses while attending college after baseball is over (assuming an early exit from pro ball). Add back in money earned from minor league pay and part time jobs. Come up with a number. This number is going to be different for virtually every situation. Be reasonable with your estimates but more importantly be comfortable with the number you decide on. This number is your benchmark. After you come up with your number, match that dollar amount with the average bonus paid by round from last years draft. PGCrosschecker and Baseball America are good places to do your research.

4. Now you have school situated and you have a dollar amount in mind that justifies not going to school. The rest of the process is pretty much out of you and your son's control. Don't forget to enjoy your son's last year of High School ball. Regardless of which way he goes after this year, life will change. The professional scouting community will give you just about everything you need to know to make your pro vs college decision. When the scouts start talking to you, ask them approximately what round they see your son being drafted in. Most of them will offer their opinion and then remind you that they have no direct control over when anyone is drafted, which is true. They are still your best source of expert opinion and their opinion does make a difference. The more scouts you talk to the better idea you will have of what to expect. If your anticipated dollar amount is 3rd round and your scout queries are coming up 20th round it's time to head back to the drawing board. Were you unrealistic in your expectations when you made your estimate? Is 20th round money good enough? Again, everyone is different but in the end, everyone has to make decision. We have and you will too.

5. In my opinion, you and your son are now ready for draft day. College is ready. Draft bonus dollars have been calculated. You have some idea of what to anticipate happening. If he is drafted where you want, great! If he doesn't go high enough or at all, that's great too! Your basic win/win situation. At least that's what I keep telling myself. Most importantly, you're ready to make an informed decision. No regrets allowed....

Wow, that was long winded! Helps me when I put my thoughts down on paper though. We are sure hoping that we're making the right choices, just like everyone else. One thing's for sure, time will tell.

Dang, sure wish I could find that stinkin crystal ball!

OK2Go,

I gotta say...

That might be the greatest first post I've ever read. Hope you stick around for a long time.

Great Post OK2Go!!

quote:

I have read most of the post about going pro vs college, which is very good info. However, I need some perspective on a pitcher vs a position player. If the player is ready (round drafted), the scouts are telling us it is more important for a pitcher to go early than maybe a position player.
The scouts also added "most high school pitchers (lefty) are drafted higher than most college pitchers, around 68% (5 yr average)". I personally hope for college; however, my son is leaning pro (his decision, with our guidance). Bonus $$ will be (1) factor, since he has a nice D1 scholly in hand (for 1 yr). We need some perspectives about pitchers. Hopefully, I am not asking the "Board" to reinvent the wheel.

the scouts are telling us it is more important for a pitcher to go early than maybe a position player.

That may be true but don't let that influence you ---- It's more important to THEM. Since it is more important to them, that should reflect WHERE they draft your son, which is very important to YOU. Allow things that are important to you to control your decision. Having a scout tell you what to do is like the fox telling the chickens where to roost.
Fungo

Fungo-greeat point, scouts are good guys but don't make decisions based on what they think is right for your son, their interests are dictated by their own agendas and their clubs.

OK2go-welcome, and great post

Nobody has mentioned the services of an advisor. I found our advisor to be very helpful. Understand that an advisor will only make money if your son signs a pro deal, so be very careful. Find someone you trust and don't be afraid to push your agenda. Remember the advisor works for you and you can walk at any time.

Mine chose the pro route and has never looked back. It is a big leap with little or no safety net. Make sure he understands that he will have to grow up and make big boy decisions in a big hurry. This applies to both his professional and personal life. I personally pushed the college route but his mind was made up. Only time will if he got it right.

Good luck God bless.

Thanks everyone for the welcome. I have been a long time reader and advice taker from this forum. The help that you all have provided has been invaluable. This site has been my virtual “Safe Port in a Storm” over the last couple of years, metaphorically speaking at least. In case you guys didn’t already know… This Web Site is far and away the best source of amateur baseball information I have ever seen! I’m happy to now be a part of it.

I hope everyone realizes the intent of my previous post was not to necessarily provide advice (after all I am still trying to figure all of this stuff out too). There are many, many frequent contributors to this forum that have much more experience then me. Their advice should be listened to carefully. I was simply letting everyone know the basis that our family is using to make our decision.

Deldad – Your suggestion about use of an advisor is a good one. We have talked that subject over at my house already too. We decided to take a “wait and see” attitude concerning advisors. If son looks like he might be drafted high enough, their services would certainly look more attractive, at least in our situation.

Like I have mentioned before, we are hoping and praying that we’re helping our son make the best decisions as well. By the way, we’re still not sure whether our son will go as a pitcher or a position player if he gets drafted at all. Just one more thing to lose a little sleep over…

quote:

Originally posted by OK2Go:

I hope everyone realizes the intent of my previous post was not to necessarily provide advice (after all I am still trying to figure all of this stuff out too). There are many, many frequent contributors to this forum that have much more experience then me. Their advice should be listened to carefully. I was simply letting everyone know the basis that our family is using to make our decision.

Intended or not, that was still some pretty great advice.

Welcome aboard OK2Go.

OK2Go, I agree great post and welcome!

Unfortunetly, very rarely, will a pitcher remain 100% healthy 100% of the time. Some develop issues in HS, some in college, some afterwards. The important part is to consider if a major problem occurs, where would you want to be doing your rehabbing? My son has had some minor issues and had to rehab for part of two pro seasons. He was bored to tears, as FrankF described it once, it's comparable to life of a ground hog. Pitchers rehabbing in college have benefits of rehabbing and keeping busy with class and the team. It is really, IMO, something to think about.

Deldad, as you know we have discussed advisors quite a bit, right now there happens to be another discussion going on at this time which has eveloved into discussion on rehad (see rz's topic in general forum).

TPM, in reading many of your earlier posts concerning college vs pro, I felt that you were very much on the college first side of the fence (me too). Do you still feel that way? Does your son feel that the quality of care he received was better or worse than he would have received if he were still in school?

I am still trying to get a handle on this whole degree of commitment thing from the MiLB perspective. Part of our own ongoing intra-family college vs pro arguement.... I mean discussion.

Our experince heading into college was the one you described in your #1 suggestion. We all felt (and a lot of other people) that he would receive good instruction under his pitching coach, and would not be abused. He was also a student, and we felt that was very important. Mine was projected 6-10 round out of HS. We just couldn't see son spending time in complex ball or living at home in the off season at that projection, when he had a great opportunity to go to a great program and learn under great coaches, go to football games, basketball games, socialize with those his own age. But I understand that is not always the case (priorities) for everyone.

One important thing to remember, it isn't the program or the amount of money that will make a player better, but the player himself. There are others that have taken differnt routes, it's a matter of your particular player. Although being pretty mature for his age, he did a lot of growing up in college.

Those that have been through it will tell you that it is not as difficult in the end as it seems at this early stage. Mostly for HS players with good options, it's about money. You have to decide reasonably where your son stands regarding his skills and decide what it will take to sign before he goes to college. If that's not met, you go to school, but I am not sure signing should be about the fear of getting hurt, because that can anywhere, stuff happens.

I forgot to answer your question.

As far as quality, my son got excellent care at school and pronto care. Example, he sprained his ankle and in 20 minutes the doc came to check it out. He got very sick one night and the doc came to his apartment. They traveled to their tournies and to Omaha with the team doctor.
As a professional, the care is very good BUT there is tons of red tape, things move slowly. Much more slower than at school, it can be frustrating. In late May they shut son down, he didn't get to the team ortho until late July. Too much protocol for milb players.

There are many levels at the pro level, which means you have many different pitching coaches along the way, at school you are working under one person for 3-4 years if the coach doesn't make a change. You also can be in the middle of nowhere and an injury occurs, you have to be sent somewhere to see someone or go to the main facility for rehab. You leave your team, you leave whatever friends you have made. It's not easy.

JMO.

You guys forgot one big thing, there are lots of girls in college.

quote:

Originally posted by Pop Up Hitter dad:
You guys forgot one big thing, there are lots of girls in college.

Rumor has it that there are quite a few ladies around pro ball too.

Ok2Go,
Best advice I can give you and others is that the draft is 7 months away, and a lot might depend on your son's HS season and other factors as well.

Sometimes all this draft stuff can get in the way of players taking care of business. Get scout visits over asap and let your son enjoy his last season of HS. Most parents here will tell you that after our sons HS draft experiences, most of our sons headed off to college anyway.

TPM-yes advisors have been discussed quite frequently but anytime I see a parent dealing with scouts, throwing for scouts and scouts wanting to know about money, I know from my experience, someone who has a different point of view is important, be it an advisor, coach with experience or another parent who has been through the process. Information is the most important asset when making these tough decisions and getting that info from as many sources as possible helps.

Deldad,

Great advice guys and gals... As usual!

No problem.
The best part of the HSBBW is that many of our sons take different paths for differnt reasons to reach their goal. There is no one set way to go about looking for what is right for your son, but I think that you have a good perspective on the process.

I remember arriving at many games to find many scouts sitting behind the backstop waiting for son to start. I also remember at first watching scouts more than I was watching son, until I realized, in reality they were just there doing their job, and that didn't mean he would be or would not be drafted. I don't think son enjoyed it that much at times he found the whole thing quite distracting, even though he was pretty much used to the radar guns going up at each pitch. I think that college helped him prepare better for his next draft, but that is just the way I see how things went for him.

Keep it in perspective, try not to let this very exciting time get in the way of enjoying your son's last year of HS.

TPM your advice is always top notch. I am glad you are on this website. Son played rough basketball last night, is the enforcer in the paint. Went down hard got up and is limping. It scares me to think he could screw up a knee, etc playing this game. He will never be a college basketball player, too short for current role. With his senior year coming up with baseball, nothing would hurt more than not seeing him play his last year. Should I tell son to take it down a notch? My son has been contacted by scouts who said they plan to watch his HS games.

Pop up hitter dad - I feel your pain! Very similiar situation because son has played since age 5. I would strongly recommend to let him make the decision and for you to fully support him. If he chooses to play, try to be at every game and just close your eyes when he hits the floor. This, too, could be another bonding opportunity if you are sensitive to his desires. Life is full of choices and we need experience if we are to make the right choices later in life.

PUHD,
I agree with Clint Taylor, this is something that you have to work out with your son and what he wants to do, understanding the consequences.

One of the reasons son decided not to engage in much more than baseball from a sophmore on, he plays hard, he gets hurt, he even gets hurt when he doesn't even play.

Senior year first district playoff, that afternoon he's building his gf a cage for her bunny and the screwdriver somehow "misses" the screw and ends up in his shin, only 4 stitches. Oh, then there was his junior college year, next day after his first start rolls ankle on a rock, and then there was his first pro season he rolls his other ankle trying to fix his bike in the dark......... well you get the idea.

Thank you to everyone for another great thread of valuable advice on the HSBBW.

Following up on Deldad's post, how does a player accurately project his own potential draft round? This is a question on the MLB questionnaire. Do you give a range or an exact round?

Also, any advice or stories regarding the workout experience? Thank you in advance for your responses.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:
I have no advice for you. Your all alone on this decision. Learned years ago, that giving advice when it comes to which college, sign pro or not, etc. is a bad habit to get into. There's always a chance that in the end you will have given what turned out to be the worst possible advice.

Good advice PG. It's a roll of the dice. My son signed out of high school in 2005 as a RHP and has no regrets.

He had some issues with his hip and had surgery twice. He's going to spring training again in 09. If he had gone to college what would have happened?

MLB has a good scholarship program that gives you better security in paying for college but it's still a crapshoot and a decision that has to come from the players heart.

As far a projecting rounds just project yourself where you will sign.

Good luck getting anything out of a scout as far as what round they are thinking about. If they ask you if you'll sign for an amount of money, that's about as close as you can get. Scouts don't have any say about where you are picked.

My older son was picked where we thought but we thought my other son was going to be drafted(from what we were told) but he was not drafted at all.

Good luck, have fun and enjoy the process!

I certainly agree that the decision is more difficult for pitchers than position players because of the coaching, overuse and care concerns. Serious research is required on the school selected.

Alas, no such research is available for the draft; the player doesn't have control over who drafts him and some organizations are considerably better than others on care and coaching. Overuse isn't so much of an issue in the early days; they've got too many guys to look at and I haven't heard of any without pitch counts.

You know your son and his maturity level. In MiLB, he will be called upon to be an adult; in college, he has (as has been stated) a support system to guide him in academics, rest, workouts, and getting fed. Do not underestimate the value of getting fed until you've lived on clubhouse ham sandwiches for three months.

His 'social life' will be the team he's assigned to. (OK, and the Annies if he's so inclined.) And, as has been mentioned, a number of them won't speak English. There will be politics to play.

On some teams, he will have to find accommodation which may or may not be convenient to the field. He may well have a car, but that may become immaterial when he changes teams at a moment's notice and Mom or Dad is called upon to fly to the old team to drive said car to the new team or home.

HS students have rarely been away from home for extended periods of time. Consider how that will affect him. Yes, they would be away at college as well, but with a broader range of activities and holidays and breaks every few months. MiLB will be as much as 4 months the first year, then at least 7 in subsequent years.

MiLB is baseball and only baseball, which may sound like heaven.....but so does eating nothing but ice cream.

5% of all MiLB players see a day in the Majors; 3% will have a career. College is a better preparation for life for the 95% who won't have a career.

If he is injured in college, he may never get to play pro. If he is one of the 95%, will he go back to college? The MLB scholarship numbers indicate he won't, but you know your son on that count. Somebody said college at 18 is different from college at 26. That, however, may be overestimated as that suggests he'd be playing for 8 years --- so don't get lost on that number.

But if he's good enough to be considered a high draft pick out of hs, chances are he will be out of college. And you can make this decision in his junior year, when he'd be looking at only one year to complete should he need to.

Really good post Orlando! About as complete as anyone could hope to get.

Orlando - My sentiments exactly! Good Post.