Had a pitcher that crow hops when he pitches so he pivot foot ends up 7-10 in front of the pitches plate when the ball is released... legal or illegal?
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quote:Originally posted by TX-Ump74:
Had a pitcher that crow hops when he pitches so he pivot foot ends up 7-10 in front of the pitches plate when the ball is released... legal or illegal?
I have a hard time figuring out what you're saying. I've seen crow-hopping in softball, but it's a result of the method of delivery, so I can't translate it to an overhand throw.
quote:Originally posted by TX-Ump74:
Had a pitcher that crow hops when he pitches so he pivot foot ends up 7-10 in front of the pitches plate when the ball is released... legal or illegal?
You mean like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDgMXFBHLP0
Arguably (depending on when a pitcher "delivers" a pitch), it's a balk by rule. But coming off the rubber before the ball leaves the hand is common and it's never called, nor should it be. If the pivot foot is in contact with, or directly in front of, the rubber when the stride foot hits the ground, he's satisfied the rule. A crow hop would be illegal. The way I understand it, a crow hop entails planting the pivot foot a second time.
One of the things about being here so long is that you’ve heard of about everything….back in 2004 there was a player named Guerra who played for Denton Ryan High School. He had a crow hop delivery as well. His delivery was controversial. I believe perfect game had a video of him and his delivery.
“It was reported that the delivery had more than a couple of scouts and coaches questioning whether it is legal per baseball rules or not. At least one coach sent in film to the NCAA for a ruling before he decided to start recruiting him. What he did was comparable to what a women’s softball pitcher does prior to release, except with a standard ¾’s release point. He takes a hard, big hop off his back (right) leg at the point when he starts coming forward in his delivery, lands hard on his front (left) leg and completes his arm stroke with his right leg probably a foot in front of the pitching rubber. While every pitcher looses contact with the rubber before he throws the ball, His action is so severe and exaggerated that there is little, if any, precedent for it at this level.”
I remember looking at the video and taking the above quote from the young man’s profile. I would of course abide by any interpretation that the NCAA will rule on, but until that time, I saw the move as a balk....
I don’t believe the pitcher continued to use this delivery in college.
“It was reported that the delivery had more than a couple of scouts and coaches questioning whether it is legal per baseball rules or not. At least one coach sent in film to the NCAA for a ruling before he decided to start recruiting him. What he did was comparable to what a women’s softball pitcher does prior to release, except with a standard ¾’s release point. He takes a hard, big hop off his back (right) leg at the point when he starts coming forward in his delivery, lands hard on his front (left) leg and completes his arm stroke with his right leg probably a foot in front of the pitching rubber. While every pitcher looses contact with the rubber before he throws the ball, His action is so severe and exaggerated that there is little, if any, precedent for it at this level.”
I remember looking at the video and taking the above quote from the young man’s profile. I would of course abide by any interpretation that the NCAA will rule on, but until that time, I saw the move as a balk....
I don’t believe the pitcher continued to use this delivery in college.
http://www.baseball-reference.....cgi?id=guerra002lui
It would seem he either quit doing it or it is legal...this is the guy right? I tried to find video but came up empty.
I don't see Koufax crow-hopping.
It would seem he either quit doing it or it is legal...this is the guy right? I tried to find video but came up empty.
I don't see Koufax crow-hopping.
quote:Originally posted by NDD:
http://www.baseball-reference.....cgi?id=guerra002lui
It would seem he either quit doing it or it is legal...this is the guy right? I tried to find video but came up empty.
I don't see Koufax crow-hopping.
I believe yes, that is the young man.....I hadnt heard anything about him or this delivery since those days.....
quote:
Somewhat off topic, but the move Koufax makes at 0:32 is illegal now, right?
It never was legal. Don't know why they ever let him do it.
OK... the pitcher hops towards home, his pivot foot releases from the pitchers plate and his comes off the ground. He is airborne, pivot foot comes back down to the mound then front foot lands and he throws... yes at looking at softball crow hope very similar but as a baseball wind up... I understand that there is currently a pitcher the minors (maybe Guerra, don't think so though) that does something similar to what I describe that is under review by MLB...
Can you explain why please so I can learn?quote:Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
It never was legal. Don't know why they ever let him do it.
If I recall, he was disengaged from the rubber as he took his signs, then as he came set, he engaged the rubber.
In the video it looks like he takes his sign disengaged, then engages and then comes set.
Nope. Remember, coming set is done with the hands, not the feet.
He first takes the signs disengaged, then his hands come together just before his foot makes contact with the rubber.
He first takes the signs disengaged, then his hands come together just before his foot makes contact with the rubber.
Ah so. Thank you.
First of all, I can't really picture what the OP is asking but I can't imagine it's legal for a pitcher to jump up in the air as he's in the windup.
As for Koufax, that's the first time I've really noticed how he took the sign with his foot off the rubber when pitching from the stretch.
I would suggest that's unfair as he can almost "quick pitch" and the runners would have to be more careful with their lead as Koufax was off the rubber for so long.
As for Koufax, that's the first time I've really noticed how he took the sign with his foot off the rubber when pitching from the stretch.
I would suggest that's unfair as he can almost "quick pitch" and the runners would have to be more careful with their lead as Koufax was off the rubber for so long.
quote:Originally posted by biggerpapi:
I would suggest that's unfair as he can almost "quick pitch" and the runners would have to be more careful with their lead as Koufax was off the rubber for so long.
With Koufax on the hill, there usually weren't any runners.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Nope. Remember, coming set is done with the hands, not the feet.
He first takes the signs disengaged, then his hands come together just before his foot makes contact with the rubber.
Found this on another site, is this correct?
8.01 Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while in contact with the pitcher’s plate.
quote:Originally posted by Gold Glove:
Found this on another site, is this correct?
8.01 Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while in contact with the pitcher’s plate.
Correct in what way? It'll probably start another debate, but the rule is to prevent the pitcher from getting signs, stepping on the rubber, and pitching immediately. In effect, the rule is intended to slow the pitcher down: step on the plate, take signs (or appear to take signs), then pitch.
The rule (this is where the argument begins) doesn't prohibit a pitcher from taking signs from anyone -- catcher, coach, infielder, dad in the stands -- while off the rubber. It also doesn't prohibit him from taking signs from anyone while on the rubber.
Sounds like Marshall mechanics.
quote:Originally posted by biggerpapi:
First of all, I can't really picture what the OP is asking but I can't imagine it's legal for a pitcher to jump up in the air as he's in the windup.
As for Koufax, that's the first time I've really noticed how he took the sign with his foot off the rubber when pitching from the stretch.
I would suggest that's unfair as he can almost "quick pitch" and the runners would have to be more careful with their lead as Koufax was off the rubber for so long.
Gee, I don't know. Worked pretty well for Bugs Bunny when he pitched against the Gashouse Gorillas.
Regarding the Koufax taking signs while not engaging the rubber. I think it was probably deemed okay by the umps due to the fact he did not quick pitch and did in fact still come set and on the rubber BEFORE the pitch motion. In fact he doesn't appear to be in any hurry at all. I can only assume the rule is enforced at the blues discretion and since all of his movements are deliberate and not rushed they let him do that. Personally I find Koufax's sign taking foot placement to be of little importance given the fact he is not rushing the pitch and coming set and on rubber before pitching. I feel many times the balk calls are made from interpreting and over thinking the rule. Rule was designed to prevent fake pitches and quick pitches and allow the batter and or base runner to know specifically when a pitch is coming. Sadly it has become a baseball etiquette rule these days, and the purpose of the rule has been lost. IMHO anyway..
On the crow hopping pitcher, Tim linsecum does something very similar in his motion. Watch a slow motion clip of his delivery and you can see him propel himself off the rubber and forward on every pitch. This makes his stride around 90% of his body. I can only imagine this is one aspect which gives him a high speed for such a small frame. To my knowledge this is not called a balk.
On the crow hopping pitcher, Tim linsecum does something very similar in his motion. Watch a slow motion clip of his delivery and you can see him propel himself off the rubber and forward on every pitch. This makes his stride around 90% of his body. I can only imagine this is one aspect which gives him a high speed for such a small frame. To my knowledge this is not called a balk.
I watched this YouTube and though he does push off hard, the pitcher I watched was hopping up and his pivot foot was leaving the ground unlike Linsecum who keeps it in contact with the ground.
Imagine Linsecum hopping up in the air and landing 7-8 inches in front of the pitching plate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrdHEOJvLf8
Imagine Linsecum hopping up in the air and landing 7-8 inches in front of the pitching plate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrdHEOJvLf8
quote:Originally posted by TX-Ump74:
I watched this YouTube and though he does push off hard, the pitcher I watched was hopping up and his pivot foot was leaving the ground unlike Linsecum who keeps it in contact with the ground.
Imagine Linsecum hopping up in the air and landing 7-8 inches in front of the pitching plate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrdHEOJvLf8
Ah I think I get it now...Not sure I can say on that one. I mean its not something I have ever seen before.
The best way I can describe it is kinda like a cricket pitch but without a running start...(just the feet)
A pitcher currently pitching for the Dodgers/Giants used to have a crow hop BUT they changed his delivery
quote:Originally posted by TX-Ump74:
The best way I can describe it is kinda like a cricket pitch but without a running start...(just the feet)
Is this the guy? Angels closer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...qKjo&feature=related
quote:Originally posted by gslack:
Regarding the Koufax taking signs while not engaging the rubber. I think it was probably deemed okay by the umps due to the fact he did not quick pitch and did in fact still come set and on the rubber BEFORE the pitch motion.
The issue with his move at 0:32 in the video is that he brings his hands together before engaging the rubber, which is not legal per 8.01(b).