Pitchers and Genetics

Doug you are thinking too much. Let your son play ball and learn the sport. Make sure he learns how to pitch insead of how hard he throws.
My son is thje only lefty in our family tree that I can find. Genetics ? if you figure it out let me know.

Dear Doll:

You are right... I was just musing... and of course being new, I found a number of answers in older posts.

Funny, I was the only rightie in my family and my son is right-handed as well.

Up until recently, we worked out a lot (for close to three years, winter and summer, he has worked at baseball an average of three days a week - last week we were out six days out of eight - not all pitching). I tracked speed heavily up until this spring. It doesnt matter that much anymore. He has more than enough speed. Right now we are working on control on the edges of the plate and elevations. His changeup needs a little work.

Practises with his new team are really doing a lot for him right now. He is also learning first. He loves it but, he's ready to play now.

Thanks,

Doug

there are plenty of 6'4 guys that cant even hit 78mph. THen there are guys that are only 5'8 that can easily hit 90mph. It's different for a lot of people. i'm 6'1 and i throw harder then some guys that are 6'4.

Doug what team does he play for ?

You have to be careful you don't burn him out at 10. Most of the top players my son played with at 10 are not playing ball anymore.
My son started Hard ball at 9 in rookie ball. He played several positions until 15 and then he wanted to pitch only. He still played positions in HS and AAA ball but only pitched in Elite ball. Last year he only wanted to play Elite. It was getting to be too much.

Bobble, of course he's thinking too much! He's a mechanical engineer, thats what they pay him to do! I think we all worry too much, I think sometimes we make it way too complicated. Keep it fun, simple, and work hard. Now if his change only needs a little work he's way ahead of the game at 10, mine are 12 and 22 and their changeups need a LOT of work! Good luck this year, sounds like he's going to have a huge size advantage over the average kid he plays against!

NLTICCH,
Genetics has to play a part in the physical traits a player has and those physical traits have to enhance or limit his ability to pitch at a higher than normal velocity ...but ... I think that is where it stops. Of the hundreds of boys hanging from our family tree, my son was the only one that I know could throw 90+.
The only time I was clocked on radar they said I touched 85mph. If I remember correctly that was back in 1979 and I was in my Datsun 280ZX. It cost me $65.00 plus court cost and a few nights in driving school. I’ve since given up driving fast and have settled down to coaching my son how to drive in a sensible and legal manner.
Hope this helps,
Fungo

Genetics can involve many different things. There is sufficient evidence that it does pertain to athletic ability. Regarding this subject, there are things I’ve noticed over the years. Nothing scientific, just observations!

First of all, throwing 90 mph is only a number. If Dad has a good arm and Mom has a good arm… There’s a real good chance their kids will have good arms. All of there kids have a good chance to be able to throw harder than most kids. That said, it doesn’t mean they will throw 90 mph or that they will be able to throw it where they want or that they will be good pitchers or they will throw better or worse than their dad. There are lots of kids with good arms.

I’ve also seen 5’5” unathletic looking dads with very athletic and sometimes big sons. Genetics can be beneficial, but it takes more than that. It would seem odd to see Roger Clemens sons have weak arms. Not necessarily Roger’s arm, but more than likely throwing is not going to be a weakness.

If Wilma Rudolph and Carl Lewis were to have children… I’m betting their kid’s would run fairly fast. Isn’t it odd that Ali and Frazier had “daughters” who became good boxers?

Bill Walton’s son plays for the Lakers. Then there’s Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey Jr, etc. Manny Upton was a good athlete, then came sons BJ and Justin. While maybe not equal in talent it’s interesting how often brothers and even sisters have so much natural athletic ability. (Boyer, Upton, Drew, Martinez, Bell, Molina, Alomar, Alou, Danks, Young, Week, Williams sisters, etc.)

Each year we see son’s of former Big League players at our events. They’re always talented to varying degrees. Last year we saw the son’s of former Big Leaguers Jesse Barfield, Dennis Martinez, Paul Gibson, Doug Drabek, etc. In past years we saw sons of Garth Iorg, John Mayberry, Cecil Fielder, Ron Gardenhire, Roger Clemens, and many others.

This year we plan on seeing the talented sons of Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, and several others. All these kids may not reach the status of their fathers, but it sure seems like there is something to this blood line thing. Best part is it seems to mean something for those off spring, but there are even more that come from not so obvious athletic genes.

Then again maybe it's all coincidental?

Thanks for the replies although we're a long way from genetics now...

On the potential of Burnout. There's always that possibility however, our situation is a little unique. We live in Fergus, north of Guelph a small rural town of 8,000. Over two years, my son tried out in three cities south of us with no luck. The first city he tried out in was Cambridge and he was a year underage. In truth, although he worked hard, he was not ready for that team. I wanted him to go there because the coaching was top notch (I would travel to watch practises). The other two situations were a little tougher to explain so we had to have some discussions behind the wood shed. In one instance he hit no less than 200 balls a night of the iron mike for 13 days straight during the try out period (at Rookie age he could still hit at 54 mph at a 33 foot distance). If he was going to burn out, 2004 was the year. After a failed try out in the fall of 2004, we learned of an opportunity to train underage for Brantford. We travelled to Brantford (1 hour and 15 minutes each way) on Mondays and Wednesdays from October through April with pitching nights added in the spring of 2005. With the private pitching lessons at Frozen Ropes added in to boot. He didnt make the team in the spring but, the time really gave him a leg up. Up until the spring of 2005, we worked primarily at Catching with a little 1st and 3rd thrown in for good measure. Pitching was thrown in to add versatility. Although this sounds nuts, it was kind of an adventure for both of us and it has made us tremendously close. Through tears at the rejection of Try Outs, he would say he doesnt care if he makes a team or not, we can just keep going and working out together.

Things happen for a reason. As hard as it was to crack Rep Ball, he was working harder than the others and he was learning the mechanics very well. Although Brantford did not work out, the coach made my son a better player. We would not have started Pitching a year early without that experience. Perhaps the greatest thing that happened was in the Spring of 2005, I found him a spot as an underager on a Minor Mosquito House League team in Waterloo (a mere 45 minutes away). The coaching staff was a godsend. The head coach was knowlegeable (7 years of Rep experience with an older son who is now pitching with the Canadian Thunderbirds Elite team). Practises, parents, etc. were more organized than most Rep teams. My son was throwing about 46 mph at the time and he had a 3/4 arm slot (we had 5 good pitchers and 2 okay guys on a House League team). He was also seeing a lot of time Catching. In the first six weeks, my son had no runs scored against him. Then an important thing happened - he had a melt down and was mercied for two innings in a row. The coach said he had been waiting for it to happen. He said that the one weakness of the 3/4 arm slot is when the Release point is lost, it is hard to regain control. It was decided that we would change his throw to a full overhand, that we would put him in the next game (get back on the horse), and we asked the coach if we could take three weeks off to get the new mechanics down. He came back stronger than he left off. The summer was probably the most fun one could have in baseball - there were pool parties; we won almost all the time, so there were trophies; the coaches were great; the practises were challenging but almost 100% attendance all summer. My son ended his summer with a batting average in excess of 700. I still communicate with this coach a lot - he has a wealth of experience, particularly with Pitchers.

So where are we now. In the fall of 2006, my son successfully made a Minor Mosquito AAA team in the COBA loop (west end of Toronto - probably the most competitive loop in the province at this age group). Further, his coach is an MLB scout. At Pitching and Catching we have a former MiLB Pitcher assisting. Our Manager has had tons of experience in her career. Work outs are very advanced. Although my son went through Catching clinics at The Baseball Zone this spring, they did not really see him as a Catcher (they see 1B). This kind of hit me hard but, in thinking about it, they have a lot more experience seeing these guys than I do. Given that Catcher is ot a good relief position for a Pitcher, it also makes sense. What a difference one year can make!

So why do I think he will not burn out? For many of you with kids on Rep teams in larger centres, you may take that opportunity for granted more than we do. My son feels like a Major Leaguer when he travels to his games or he goes long distances to training facilities to work out. After past adversities, he feels like he didnt just make Rep, he made THE Rep Team for the province!

My son has not been a fast runner. A simple stat: last year he had a batting average in the 700's and did not make it past second base on a single hit. Given his build, his training has all been focussed around three positions (P,C,1B,3B). He did agility training in the fall and has started running around the block with the dog at nights (something he couldnt do last year). He hits a Stealth 30/21 2 3/4" barrel - 2" longer than the Omaha he used last year. We have done quite a bit of work to bring his bat speed up beyond the range. He throws about 25 or 30 pitches three or four times a week. Right now his cruising speed is low fifties. Since the fall of 2003 he has averaged an increase of more than 1 mph per month (that engineer thing). That's why speed is not a factor anymore - I would expect that by mid-June he will be at mid-50's (and most of these kids were hitting off a machine at 40 last year). If he's focussing, he can throw in excess of 90% strikes and more importantly, he knows his own mechanics well enough to adjust himself quickly. In short, it is highly likely he will have good success this year.

Pitching is becoming far more interesting for him this year. We have been doing a lot of work with control around the outside edges of the plate moving from 2-seam (he throws it a bit cut and it is moving about 4 or 5 inches) to 4-seam to change up. He is starting the season working on a different level of control and that is exciting. We talk about the general attributes of the batting order. If his speed is overpowering, just use speed. Try to demoralize the 3,4, and 5 hitters with the control. His trailing leg is now moving off to the side instead of turning him around, so he can land in a better defensive position. If a power hitter is waggling his butt around and holding the hand back before he puts his last foot in the box, step back break the hands rub the ball and look at the guy. If you're having a bad day or your stuff is not quite there yet; hurl 2-seam fastballs for strikes up the middle until you feel good.

There's another factor or two. My son is fairly bright at school and has scored well on National tests in the past academically. He knows that he must score well to continue his dream at any level. He is highly competitive and in any autobiography I have read, despite what people say, this is a common trait. He also has a bit of an edge. If he hits a guy, that's part of the game - he will apologize but if the next pitch demanded is high inside he will go high inside.

This year is not nearly as demanding as last (we took three months off) and I think we will have a lighter load next year again. Heck, we've got three years before we can start on a curve ball!

Anyway it's late... we had a fun night helping with the teams up here tonight... mainly little guys (Hey, 7 days for 10).

Cheers,

Doug

Doug,

Take BobbleheadDoll's advise. Your very-long analysis of your son's playing ability is way-too serious for a 10yo.

I could write a book on the training my son has received in the last year. At 16, he is by far the best and fastest LHP in our town. But at age 10, he was subbed on the local rec team.

Thinking back, I just can't believe how silly I was to think at that time how important it was to succeed at 10.

At 11, my son had a tough time making a travel team. He was told his arm was weak. I'm embarrassed to tell you that I believed at that time he had no talent and no chance.

What a mistake. Each and every one of those star players are out of baseball. He remains, and he is the best.

He's 10. Let him have fun and back off.

Hi Bum:

When it comes to fun, you make valid points. Two years back, my son played locally in our small town. We had been winter training quite a bit prior to this. The coaches son was a year older than mine and he was pretty good at the time. My son became so disgusted with the level of play around him (I did not incite this), he was more than ready to quit baseball. I tried to help out with mechanics at practises but, that was seen as “too advanced.” I knew the coach wanted to send his kid to Rep Try Outs in the city eventually. He had been a promising Pitcher at one time himself in the Toronto area. I recommended some training facilities. He felt that raw talent and playing would get his son there. Besides, they did not want to make the 20 minute drive to the training facility. Two years later, I see him at a Try Out just south of us. He said to me, “I cant believe the talent level. You were right to get out. I don’t think ######## will even break the bottom 5 out of 40. It wasn’t like this when we were kids…”

In another post here, Bystander wrote a line that he took his kid out on good days and bad. I can relate very well to that. On bad days, we shut down early (Drive twenty minutes, work/hang out for ½ hour, drive back). I would back off on some of the mechanics that days and just try to get one thing. We always went. We talk about anything and everything in the car (girls, math, some guy he wrestled to the ground in the schoolyard, etc.) but, mainly baseball. This year is different, he always wants to talk about baseball.

I watch a lot of teams at my sons age and a year older, mainly Rep teams. I fully agree with you that 9 out of 10 of these kids will be gone in the next three or four years. I will add though that they are not suffering burnout because they put in excessive time in training facilities. If you frequent the facilities often, the number of faces you can correlate to Rep teams is very, very, very, low (may not be everyone’s experience).

A lot of the ten year old superstars are there because (everyone will have a “hay day” with this):

they are speed merchants and good natural athletes
they are successful at other sports and they have a high need to be successful
they have naturally developed an arm slot and release
their parent is a coach (not a bad thing)
at a young age, they hit well from a machine, they don’t have to pitch under pressure
if it aint broke don’t fix it mentality
they don’t necessarily have to be as good at being team players yet
they can be in a big fish/small pond situation and they become shocked by a bigger pond
they appear better for a few years because they are playing 50 game seasons with better (in most cases) coaching as opposed to 20 game seasons

It is for many of these same reasons they are not there three years later. How often do you see young pitchers who are mechanically flawed and yet are throwing strikes right now? The same kid may not be able to throw a ball across a room in a few years. What if the superstar suddenly has to work and there is no low-lying fruit around? We all know the distractions (new circle of friends, the opposite ***, the other sport becomes the easier path, etc.).

I think that development is an indicator on a scale that runs between fun and dead serious. Let your kid set the indicator. Help him see the options but, let him/her set the indicator. I think a lot of the superstar’s parents say: turn up the hits; turn up the power, turn up the pitching speed, turn up the strikes, turn up my kids bench time. Maybe what they should be saying is: turn up the development time; turn up the time talking to my kid; turn up the time spent with my kid; turn off the rose-tinted glasses and work on the weaknesses with them.

This year, we moved the development indicator from an extremely fun situation with great people to a more serious situation (it’s still fun but, it would be hard to be as much fun). The options for the move were and still are: playing with some of the highest caliber kids in the province (the theory that you play better with better players); the strong possibility that you could go to a National tournament in a couple of years; coaching from some of the best baseball people in the country; the blood is strong in the COBA loop (at least 6 of the other 10 teams would be in the top 15 in the province – stats and my perception). Ultimately, he set the indicator.

He has the option of returning if this doesn’t work out. We talked about it and it is no big deal. One thing I am very sure of, he would not likely have the opportunity he has without the time and effort. Further, I am sure that the likelihood of getting the opportunity would have diminished with time rather than improved. He has a much higher level of self esteem and sense of accomplishment. We both know that this could be very fleeting but, it is fun.

The other thing is that my “into it” problem is “my” problem – not his. We spend a fair amount of time at basketball. I work with him on stuff but, boy I have a hard time getting “into it”. But boy, it is good time spent with my kid…

Doug

Doug dare I say it but you are being too "Mechanical". He is 10 yo and you have to let him have fun. Yes get him good training and let him tryout for good teams if that is his desire.
My son started showing talent at 9 1/2 yo. Uptil then he was playing fastball and howed 0 talent. He even dropped the fly ball that lost thye championship game in his last FB game.
I think most people on here will tell you the same type of story. All the kids who played AAA ball with my son through midget are not playing except 1 who is at Canisius U. Most of the District allstar players are at college and some in the minors. The same is true of Elite teams. Most are in college ball and a few in the minors.
I know Fergus well and the area you live in has some excellent ball programs. You did not mention the team your son is with but I guess you feel the grass is greener there. Waterloo is a hot bed of good ball players. Cambridge used to be one of our biggest rivals.
My son pitched for the T-Birds 17U team a couple years ago and it has a great winter program.
My point is at 10yo your son is so far away from being a "ballplayer". you have to let him enjoy it. Burn out is a combination of over involvement and the changes mentally and physically that will take place over the next few years. At midget level we lost more players than you would ever imagine. the reasons are too numerous to mention.

Folks:

I am listening and hearing. The points about this age being critical are not falling entirely on deaf ears. That, and I have not heard a lot of people come in and say; they put in a lot of time at this age and their kid made it through.

Baseball up here is pretty much done. Recreational Fastball has been growing quite well,but Hardball is tough. To be truthful, my son played both baseball and fastball a couple of years ago. We both go out to help with the indoor training here for baseball. If we werent involved elsewhere, we would probably coach. Last year, there were only 50 kids at Minor Mosquito for all of Kitchener and Waterloo in House League. In Cambridge, at Rookie (my son's proper age) there were only 6 kids that came out for Rep Try Outs. Guelph dominated Rookie last year with only 1 loss. I dont know whether enrollments have changed for this year or not (I believe it was up in Waterloo). A significant part of the decision to move to COBA was that Intercounty did not look like it was going to last much longer.

We only have one kid, and thus, we are not entirely prepared for the changes to come. It could be that the travel will become a problem (Lakeview is a long way from Fergus for weeknight starts). In any event, we'll get back to you in three or four years.

Doug

Doug the area you are in (Intercounty) is a great area for baseball. I have not been involved with OBA for a few years but your area produced some of the best ballplayers in Canada. Ay 10 yo it is hard to say what the future holds for your son . As I said most kids at that age if over exposed become bored and eventually walk away.
We did not get real serious until 15YO. At 10 my son played mosquito AAA in St Catharines. He loved it and fortunately never looked back. At 15 he took lessons from the head pitching scout of the Jays (4 Lessons). He played HS,AAA District 18U allstar and Elite. 4 teams untill he was 18. Last year he dropped everything but Elite. He was finding itr too much and he wanted to save for college. It was always his decision and I thought he was overdoing it but never pushed him. He tried out for many teams over the years in the fall and made Team Ontario at 15 but did not play for them. He had already signed with another team. We found the tryout to be great learning experiences and it only cost the travel money and time. In the fall they have tryouts for all the Elite tea,s and I highly advise going to several especially at 15yo. To me that is when you can see the talent start to develope.

10 yr old baseball is the indicator of nothing with respect to future results. Make sure he learns the correct way to throw and how to rotate to hit. FOrget the results at 10.....it's all smoke.

Fun, fun, fun!!! It's not "Have fun but.....".

I dont buy the genetics thing much. Too many variables that players can have an effect on to blame it on the "man".

Good luck. I know how you feel....I really do.

Razor

I was 6', 190 in high school, threw 95 from the left side, drafted high out of high school, played several years in the minor leagues before injuries ended my career. I have a 16 year old sophomore son 6'3" 205lbs already throwing 88 on a Stalker. I have a daughter who is a catcher, senior in high school, incredible arm, will be the starting catcher next year at Stephen F. Austin State University. I think genetics has a lot to do with where my kids are now. Anyone out there want to take a stab at where my son will top out at in 2 years on the gun?

OP, Don't really know the meaning of your last question....

I think your kids have greatly benefitted from your talent and knowledge. GIve yourself a lot of credit. However, if you play the "g" card you are walking in to a big unknown. It is impossible to predict max genetic potential and even more ridiculous to say someone can or can't do something because they are gentically prediposed. There is a huge huge huge hole in that argument. Is work ethic genetic? How about knowledge? How about time mangement or goal setting?

I think if you thought about the implications of what you are suggesting you would rethink the statement. Do you really beleive that's why you could do the great things you could do and others couldn't? Is it a factor in max potential.....yes. But it would only really have any true application IF humans did all they could do and had all the knowledge they could. Do you really know very many like that?

No way.

Razor,

I really haven't put a lot of thought into the genetic thing to be honest. I just think that maybe it plays into it somehow. I can't say that I know for sure. Just saw this thread and thought it was interesting to discuss.

I know that my son didn't get his size from my genetics!!! When I was his age, I was 5'10 and weighed 150.

He could stay at the 88 level from here on out, I don't know. Just wondering if there's any out there smarter than me that might have an opinion on where he could possibly end up on the gun in a couple of years. Like you said, a lot depends on work ethic, etc.

I'm with you really.

Thanks for your two cents worth.

In reading Doug's responses to my advise, he talked about "promising pitchers" and "highest caliber kids" in the province..at the age of 10!

My son is now listed as one of the top pitchers in the state of WA but at 10 he was subbed behind another kid who no longer pitches.

Doug, I'm not saying don't let the kid train. Like I said, I could write a book. But for you to draw the conclusion that a kid has promise based upon his performance at age 10 is just baseless, IMHO. Relax. Baseball is a marathon not a sprint.

Anwyay, good luck. Love your son and keep trying.

Hi again:

I am not surprised that 9 out of 10 will not be playing at 14 or 15. I would hazard that 3 out of the 9 that left, would have left for burn-out reasons. I would contend that 1 out of those 3, at best, would have left for reasons that they were over-working (I just dont see it in the training facilities).

I do know Elite team Pitchers who have trained from this same age. Their numbers are in proportion to those above. In other words, if 5% of the kids are training hard at 10, and only one kid on a team is going to make it through to say 15 yr old baseball; is it so shocking that most folks here would say that their kid was not the best when he was 10?

I am not as hopeful as you might think about the longer haul. From my perspective, the opportunities are far less likely than any of the least optimistic warnings proposed here. You'll have to take my word on that.

I strong convictions that the training that is being given at these practises is second to none. I could be wrong but, I also believe that you play better with better players. I am mentioned the skill level because of what it means. It has little to do with wins, etc.

In any event, given the numbers, I would say that each case is probably unique in some way. I think that the only tie that binds, is that ultimately, the kid loved the game enough.

Doug

Last year when my son went to high school, I noticed that only 6 of the 12 kids from his 12 year old allstar team were even still playing baseball. I asked parents from other areas that I knew to see what their response was, added up the results and out of 365 kids (30 teams) 209 were still playing baseball as Freshmen, 20 kids were status unknown, and 136 were out of baseball. Not a scientific study - but a large enough sample size to be somewhat interesting.

Enjoy your son's baseball success, help him to have a great time - and worry about the future once he has gone through puberty and made it to high school.

Great post 08Dad. Good points!

OP

Old pitcher - 90 to 92, depending on how old of 16yo.

Doug, you are not wrong, you MUST play against the better players. My son certainly has. My log of his training and games played is extensive, and certainly against the better players.

But my point is, I guess, is that I've seen way too many parents thinking their son is going to be a big star at 10 be very disappointed when all the other kids catch up. Usually it's when their kid has an endomorphic body top (fast grower).

I'm not against the training, Doug, just the seriousness of the belief-system at this young age.

quote:

Old pitcher - 90 to 92, depending on how old of 16yo.

CADad,

Just turned 16 two weeks ago. March 14th.

OP

I think PG did a study that indicated the hardest throwing sophs have generally added about 4 mph between soph and junior years.

Of course, your mileage may vary!

Thanks OP - it is an interesting spreadsheet... If anyone want to contribute to the study - making the averages a little more valid, please PM me

1) the team name (e.g. Big City West Side American League Little League Allstars,)
2) the city and state,
3) the number of players on the 12 yo roster,
4) the number who played Freshman Ball,
5) the number you know did not play baseball their Freshman year
6) the number you don't know what happened to.

I'll post the results if I get more than a couple of responses....

08

quote:

Originally posted by Old Pitcher:

quote:

Old pitcher - 90 to 92, depending on how old of 16yo.

CADad,

Just turned 16 two weeks ago. March 14th.

OP

i remember when i threw that hard at 16..

threw my arm out at 19