What is considered a good break time (break of the hands to home) for a high school pitcher in order to give his catcher a reasonable chance of throwing a runner out stealing second? How about college and pros?
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A great time to shoot for is 1.3 from hand break to the time the catcher receives it. Good runners typically get from first to second in around 4 seconds. Good catchers can get the ball to second in 2 seconds flat.
Having a break time less than 1.3 seconds gives you some much needed room for error. Not much but at least some.
What can help is if the pitcher is really good at mixing up his hold times and when he picks to first. If he can control the running game with how he holds the ball before he picks/pitches and keep his delivery under 1.3 seconds then he's got a great chance of that runner who does run well to not get a good jump.www.baseball-pitching-tips.com
Having a break time less than 1.3 seconds gives you some much needed room for error. Not much but at least some.
What can help is if the pitcher is really good at mixing up his hold times and when he picks to first. If he can control the running game with how he holds the ball before he picks/pitches and keep his delivery under 1.3 seconds then he's got a great chance of that runner who does run well to not get a good jump.www.baseball-pitching-tips.com
The catchers in college and the pros are much better than in HS naturally but the times to shoot for are still the same. A high school pitcher needs to learn to get his stretch delivery 1.3 and under as soon as possible, especially since HS catchers don't deliver the ball to second in 2 seconds.
But then again, most runners in high school won't run a 4.0 either.
But then again, most runners in high school won't run a 4.0 either.
Here is what I consider a real good example at the college level, best way to watch is go HQ and full screen. The kid at first is a legit 5 tool kid, Mycal Jones from Miami-Dade, if he doesn't go high enough in the draft he'll be at UNF on a full ride next year.
I encourage you to time the pitcher..he was 1.1 that day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...feature=channel_page
I encourage you to time the pitcher..he was 1.1 that day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...feature=channel_page
That's an excellent example. And you should note that he doesn't sacrifice his delivery for the sake of being quick. He could just slide step home but he doesn't. He still gathers himself before he goes to the plate so his velocity and command shouldn't suffer. To do that and be 1.1-1.3 to the plate he gives himself and the catcher the best chance against the running game.
From what I have noticed- A pitchers arms will almost exactly take the same amount of time from the point of separation to delivery whether they have a high leg lift or a short one- the arm separation timing is almost exact either way. The quickest way to deliver a pitch therefore is to diminish the leg lift and start the hand separation as quickly as possible once the front foot leaves the ground (first move that runners steal on).
Really fast pitchers start with their hands lower by their waist while in the stretch position. This allows them to have less motion (less time) getting the arm to high **** phase. Of coarse this also means that the front leg lift and plant has to be quicker. I like to videotape and playback in slo-mo to get the timing of when they first start to move to the point of high **** before delivery. Times of around a 6/10 of a second are good times to shoot for to this point. After this point to where the ball comes out should be around 1/10 to 1/15 of a second and from that point to the cathcer depends on actual velocity of ball. For a 90+ mph pitcher that would be roughly another 3/10 to 4/10 of a second bringing in a total time of 1 to 1.15 seconds delivery time (for really good pitchers).
Really fast pitchers start with their hands lower by their waist while in the stretch position. This allows them to have less motion (less time) getting the arm to high **** phase. Of coarse this also means that the front leg lift and plant has to be quicker. I like to videotape and playback in slo-mo to get the timing of when they first start to move to the point of high **** before delivery. Times of around a 6/10 of a second are good times to shoot for to this point. After this point to where the ball comes out should be around 1/10 to 1/15 of a second and from that point to the cathcer depends on actual velocity of ball. For a 90+ mph pitcher that would be roughly another 3/10 to 4/10 of a second bringing in a total time of 1 to 1.15 seconds delivery time (for really good pitchers).
gbm, you'll note this pitchers hands, they are at chest level, almost shoulder level, this is a teach he learned from a couple of places..one former pro catcher the others D-1 1st eschalon coaches..he's at 1.1 and that day he was at 90, so I won't debate your point I wouldn't say it's an across the board deal either.
Things I like to point out is that at this level even being 1.3 is no proof against getting timed and stolen on, varying delivery, letting them know you'll go over and having more than one move on going over is key..just to keep them close enough to allow a dp ya gotta battle or they'll eat you like a snack...Miami-Dade was #3 in the nation and this kid Jones
gotta be the best ss prospect I've ever seen, he made plays I didn't think had even remote chances on.
A quick couple of other points, notice how he comes set..none of that sweeping, up and down hands stuff...almost impossible to gain ground on him, lift that foot and you will be picked, so the initial lead is what you get. Also when he wheels to go over with this hand positioning he's already in position to throw.
Things I like to point out is that at this level even being 1.3 is no proof against getting timed and stolen on, varying delivery, letting them know you'll go over and having more than one move on going over is key..just to keep them close enough to allow a dp ya gotta battle or they'll eat you like a snack...Miami-Dade was #3 in the nation and this kid Jones
gotta be the best ss prospect I've ever seen, he made plays I didn't think had even remote chances on.A quick couple of other points, notice how he comes set..none of that sweeping, up and down hands stuff...almost impossible to gain ground on him, lift that foot and you will be picked, so the initial lead is what you get. Also when he wheels to go over with this hand positioning he's already in position to throw.
The kid from Dade just looks like a tremendous athlete. I don't care if a pitcher is at 1.0 seconds to home, the chances of your 1.0 to the plate being the factor that stops him are unbelievably slim. People with skills like that are so quick and put so much pressure on the defense that you have to be perfect with a good pitch to throw on and a quick, well-placed throw to second. The best way to keep guys like that under control is...1)Mix your picks and hold times up to first (like JD points out as well) 2)Don't be afraid to hold the ball and make him wait on you...and my favorite 3)Don't let him get on base. But know that guys like that will get their stolen bases.
But guys like him are few and far between. The better the competition the more quicker and better base runners there will be. Control the running game by having a quick delivery to the plate, holding the ball for different lengths of time and knowing when to pick. Do that and you'll win the battle of the running game more than you will lose it.
But guys like him are few and far between. The better the competition the more quicker and better base runners there will be. Control the running game by having a quick delivery to the plate, holding the ball for different lengths of time and knowing when to pick. Do that and you'll win the battle of the running game more than you will lose it.
quote:gbm, you'll note this pitchers hands, they are at chest level, almost shoulder level, this is a teach he learned from a couple of places..one former pro catcher the others D-1 1st eschalon coaches..he's at 1.1 and that day he was at 90, so I won't debate your point I wouldn't say it's an across the board deal either.
Things I like to point out is that at this level even being 1.3 is no proof against getting timed and stolen on, varying delivery, letting them know you'll go over and having more than one move on going over is key..just to keep them close enough to allow a dp ya gotta battle or they'll eat you like a snack...Miami-Dade was #3 in the nation and this kid Jones gotta be the best ss prospect I've ever seen, he made plays I didn't think had even remote chances on.
A quick couple of other points, notice how he comes set..none of that sweeping, up and down hands stuff...almost impossible to gain ground on him, lift that foot and you will be picked, so the initial lead is what you get. Also when he wheels to go over with this hand positioning he's already in position to throw.
I still like the pitchers hands at or near waist level because it cuts off a few hundredths of a second. personal preference I guess. Guys in the majors are about sixes on where they initially start from. Guys I have timed are usually quicker to the plate when thet start their hands lower near the waist.
I can see why you like the hands at the waist. Logically it makes sense that the lower the hands the less time it takes to get em around and deliver the ball. A matter of preference I suppose. But as long as they can deliver the ball in less than 1.3, I don't care if they start with their hands behind their head as it doesn't really matter does it? Also, actual arm speed varies from pitcher to pitcher. One pitcher can start with his hands at his chin and make it under 1.3. And another can start at the waist and not make it under that. It all depends on the pitcher.
The pickoff move is usually quicker from a higher position. Besides all pitchers do not have the same arm path to the plate.
quote:Don't let him get on base.
I'm hip
I thought ball 4 looked better than strike 2
Agree with PG. All pitching coaches have taught my son to start from a high set, it gives you a quicker move to first and slightly quicker time to home and potentially less mechanical issues with arm mechanics. Does not mean it is the only way as there are very successful pitchers who set low, it is just a preferred way and if you can teach it at a young age it will be easy to cary forward.
GBM don't come back with some long winded reason why "your method" is better - pay attention and learn from this site.
GBM don't come back with some long winded reason why "your method" is better - pay attention and learn from this site.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
Agree with PG. All pitching coaches have taught my son to start from a high set, it gives you a quicker move to first and slightly quicker time to home and potentially less mechanical issues with arm mechanics. Does not mean it is the only way as there are very successful pitchers who set low, it is just a preferred way and if you can teach it at a young age it will be easy to cary forward.
GBM don't come back with some long winded reason why "your method" is better - pay attention and learn from this site.
I'm sorry but what's more important...your pitches to the plate or your picks to first? Pitchers that have their hands set high do have quicker moves to first. And they still pick off what, maybe 3 guys a year? If a pitcher sets his hands higher and it gives him a quicker move to first AND he can deliver quality pitches to home great. But pitches are more important than picks. You pick to keep them close because you're rarely going to pick them off.
BOF...Explain why lowering the hands a whopping 6 inches gives "potentially less mechanical issues with arm mechanics?"
Interesting..my fault ya'll, turned a simple question into an opportunity to show off my kid..ah well..I am proud of him, lots to be learned from good pitching..
How bout the game last night? Big Z against J Peavey..I watched with interest as I know my man Carlos is one of the best run suppression guys in the bigs..know what??..Carlos sets hi..Jake..he's at the belt
. Just goes to show ya.
Now for those non Cy Young pitchers in college or high school, keeping a runner tight is important, sure you may only pick 3 times a year or so depending on how good you are..keeping them off home plate is the most desired, so suppressing them is a good idea. I've shared what I've learned from learned men, GBM, 97 PG and BOF too..I think it all goes to show that there just isn't one way to train up a pitcher..all that might dismay N Y M A N or Marshall or Mills..but not me..whole lotta good info to be had, to someone with an open mind.
I ran into this video while looking for an example of Carlos from the stretch..maybe it will be instructive too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDZPN0mjaAA
How bout the game last night? Big Z against J Peavey..I watched with interest as I know my man Carlos is one of the best run suppression guys in the bigs..know what??..Carlos sets hi..Jake..he's at the belt
. Just goes to show ya. Now for those non Cy Young pitchers in college or high school, keeping a runner tight is important, sure you may only pick 3 times a year or so depending on how good you are..keeping them off home plate is the most desired, so suppressing them is a good idea. I've shared what I've learned from learned men, GBM, 97 PG and BOF too..I think it all goes to show that there just isn't one way to train up a pitcher..all that might dismay N Y M A N or Marshall or Mills..but not me..whole lotta good info to be had, to someone with an open mind.
I ran into this video while looking for an example of Carlos from the stretch..maybe it will be instructive too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDZPN0mjaAA
quote:GBM don't come back with some long winded reason why "your method" is better - pay attention and learn from this site.
I never said it was "better", just a preference for pitching.
BTW, why are you so difficult?
And they used to tell me I was difficult!!!
This is fun
This is fun
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
BTW, why are you so difficult?
I just got back from the TRhit combine on posting....
TR you are the man!
quote:Originally posted by pro97:
BOF...Explain why lowering the hands a whopping 6 inches gives "potentially less mechanical issues with arm mechanics?"
Pro97 you are correct in that a pitcher should try to keep a runner close and not worry about picking him. A good catcher in conjunction with an effecient delivery will get 10 runners for every 1 that he can pick.
To your question we were referring to young kids and learning proper mechanics. I am only going by what has been taught to my son by 3-4 various pitching instuctors who are well regarded in our area. The high set provides less mechanical movement from set to hand break position. If you think about it they are all on the same plane.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:quote:Originally posted by pro97:
BOF...Explain why lowering the hands a whopping 6 inches gives "potentially less mechanical issues with arm mechanics?"
Pro97 you are correct in that a pitcher should try to keep a runner close and not worry about picking him. A good catcher in conjunction with an effecient delivery will get 10 runners for every 1 that he can pick.
To your question we were referring to young kids and learning proper mechanics. I am only going by what has been taught to my son by 3-4 various pitching instuctors who are well regarded in our area. The high set provides less mechanical movement from set to hand break position. If you think about it they are all on the same plane.
Pardon the sarcastic tone of my comment. I read it back and it wasn't necessarily intended that way. If you're referring to "less mechanical movement" from a high hand set when you pick, of course. But to say that high hands are better "mechanically" for a pitcher actually throwing pitches, well there's just no basis for that. I think there's too much being made out where the pitcher's hands are when they come set. Both areas, higher and lower, are effective with the right pitchers. But to say that one way is more mechanically sound than another is just untrue.
And I'd be shocked if those numbers are close to the real percentage of pickoffs at first base. 10% seems high. I could be wrong though.
OK I pulled the 10/1 number from you know where...
just a guestamation. Your point it correct a pichers focus should be on the guy with the bat. Keep him close and make a good pitch and you will be better off.
It is not worth the space of this typing arguing the set postion. The high set is preferred but if you set from someplace else and go for it.
just a guestamation. Your point it correct a pichers focus should be on the guy with the bat. Keep him close and make a good pitch and you will be better off.
It is not worth the space of this typing arguing the set postion. The high set is preferred but if you set from someplace else and go for it.
