pitches on certain counts

This is a very difficult question to discuss because the information you gave is sketchy.

Before discussing any of these counts I would want to know at least the following information about you, as a pitcher:

a. What is your personal set of game pitches?

b. Which of your pitches do you command?

c. What inning are we in and who's on base?

d. What's the score?

e. What do you know about the hitter? You could start with his handedness vs. yours and ask about 5 more big questions beyond that.

I'm sure there could be many more variables that other coaches might want to know about before advising you.

I'm not trying to avoid discussing your questions with you but my biggest concern here is that a set of cookie-cutter answers for these pitch counts is almost by definition going to be wrong 90% of the time--unless you can provide clear information on my questions a,b,c,d, and e.

No set answer exists. At least, not a good one.

The pitch strategy/selection will vary according to the batter, the strike zone the blue is calling, what has been thrown up to that point, the situation and what is working for the pitcher during that given outing.

Yeah you could get 15 people to answer and each one would be totally different. Plus in one game each pitch would work perfectly and then the next game the same pitches make you look like you have no idea about the game.

One thing I do like but don't see a lot of is a 3 - 0 change up down the middle of the plate. You would be amazed how many infield pop ups you will get out of that if you are facing hitters who swing on 3 - 0.

To give you some what of a general answer it is typical if you are down in the count 3-0 throw fastball in strike zone, typically 0-2 for my pitchers i tell them to go after the hitter, don't mess around and waste many pitches, but don't serve it up- hopefully by that count we can try to expand the zone by an inch or two, we throw alot of offspeed 2-0 that is the count hitters sit dead-red and you can get alot of hitters to take and get the count a little more in your favor, weaker hitters will pragram their minds to swing and you can get a weak out somwhere. 3-1 counts you throw your best pitch, no matter what it is, but i also tell my pitchers don't put anything on a platter.

There are alot of different answers for a lot of different situations but here are some suggestions.

Nobbie30:
Welcome to our site... I think you're really going to like it here.

I have been a spectator for sometime now just looking at all the great stuff. I appreciate the diversity of opinions as everyone is different in everything they do, the more things you can try the better player/ coach/ parent you will probably be. I thank you trojan skipper and look forward to gaining and sharing many ideas..

one thing i like is a breaking ball or offspeed on a 3-2 count (that is if you can throw it for a strike) most hitters are sitting dead red on a fast ball

I will call the off speed on a 3-2 on aggressive hitters. The most likely to swing are the ones that were aggressive on the first two pitches then laid off the next 3. They seem to always want to swing on 3-2.

The the perfect pitch to throw is the one the batter is not expecting....

Actually mentioned here an change is the perfect pitch to call on a 3-0 count. (or other behind in the count pitches) If you get a strike you are set up to throw a fastball or curve and have the pitch not be "at risk".

I will post this on a thread of it's own but a new book out by Perry Husband is a must read for the serious pitcher or pitching coach. If you are only going to buy one get book 3. Enjoy.

http://www.hittingisaguess.com/frame.asp?lnk=the_books.htm

BOF,

Perry's research is interesting, I agree.

I somewhat disagree with a blanket statement that the CU is perfect pitch for 3-0.

Obviously it could work out the way you outlined it, but there are many other possibilities. If the pitcher had gotten to 3-0 with a variety of off-speed then the hitter's attention would be dialed down and (if he has green light) a 'get it over' CU might be a sitting duck. If he's been ordered to take, and the individual pitcher's CU is a relatively weak or unpredictable pitch for him then you are risking a walk.

If you're pretty sure the hitter is going to take and the pitcher's FB is his best pitch, of course that would suggest FB to get to 3-1, then maybe the CU or other off-speed.

The possibilities for using Effective Velocity are really almost endless and Perry's work highlights that idea in many interesting ways.

One thing that Perry's work really doesn't cover, because primarily he comes from a hitting background, is how pitchers execute. That is, Perry's stuff definitely can help pitchers create some goals around the use of Effective Velocity principles, but individual pitchhers need to understand their own strengths and weaknesses to put Perry's ideas into execution.

Laflippin agree with everything, in pitching there are never blanket statements....

Also agree with your assesment of Perry's work. As an example, his point that pitchers should not work so much down and away may be misguided for those who can not properly execute his pitch sequencing and and up and in pitch can very easily be up and over the fence if not located properly.

BOF,

I'd be very interested to hear how you work with the EV principles.

Are you a HS or college coach who got in touch with Perry through one of Tom House's shindigs?

Personally, I mostly just work with my own son--we do lots of experiments together. He's young (only 13 yo) but he saw Perry speak about EV in May of this year and he's been really interested to learn more. Perry's books are a little bit too hard for him to crunch through, but I like that stuff and so I read it and then try to simplify the ideas for discussion.

One of our main conclusions so far is: You've got to have three pitches--a fastball, a breaking ball, and some type of change-up--under command to really use EV well. I guess it could be argued that command of a fastball and a change-up might get you by at lower levels of baseball but...we've become more dedicated to the idea of developing good command of 'the big three' pitch types as a result of Perry's EV studies.

So, my kid continues to develop his 4-seam FB, which is already his command pitch, but he is putting a lot more work into the split-finger FB he uses for a change-up, as well as putting more work into controlling the slider.

How best to use those pitches with filthy EV in any given at-bat is a pretty cool topic.

Laflippin you have a PM

Alot depends on the hitter's reaction to previous pitches/at bats but more important than what pitch I throw is the location of the pitch. I throw the pitch properly to the correct location ( on the corners,low for the fastball/change and down with the curve)and I'm in good shape if I hit my target. If my curve hasn't been working or my command is off to where I might hang one up, I won't throw it much except to show the hitter I do have a curve.

A good fastball is always a good fastball and the same holds true for other pitches if properly executed. The debate usually starts in the dugout in the form of second guessing by coaches in " I wouldn't have thrown that pitch in that situation) which is assinine. The debate should be "if you're gonna throw that pitch in that situation, you've got to hit your location" when a pitcher doubles up with a curve but hangs the second one for double to the fence.

But then we'd deprive some coaches of second guessing which they use to in of place of teaching.

Secondly, never throw a pitch you can't commit to unless the catcher wants to be sure to show the pitch and then always out of the zone. You don't always have command of the same pitches each day...fight your battles with your strengths that day.

All the catcher cares about is what pitches can my pitcher throw with command/location that day and what do we need to show the hitters occasionally to keep them honest. If his curve is on that day, I'll use it 3/2, or any count because a good located curve is always a good pitch. If he's hanging the curve, we'll throw more changes and 2 seamers that day. If nothing is working, we'll throw fastballs to help him find the plate try to survive until the other pitches start coming back ( almost always happens once the pitcher starts consistently hitting his location). Pitching is alot like real estate.

Bottom line, I want my pitcher to have confidence in what he throws and not be dictated too much by the count unless the game situation demands it. But even then, if his best/consistent pitch has been a curve, I'll call it with runners at 3rd and less than 2 outs.

Hitters hit mistakes... sometimes they will hit a good pitch in a great location. Tip your hat and get the next guy because if my pitcher has command of 3 pitches that day, as a catcher I know the cards are stacked in my favor and I'm going to have alot of fun.

Until we get in the dugout and hear the coach say "You know you can't throw an ankle high curve to that guy in that situation. Never throw it to him with 1 out, 1-2 count, in the 2nd inning, on a Tuesday in the 1st game of a doubleheader in May. Other than that, helluva a pitch...just shouldva used it earlier".

God, but I do love listening to coaches in the dugout.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
As an example, his point that pitchers should not work so much down and away may be misguided for those who can not properly execute his pitch sequencing and and up and in pitch can very easily be up and over the fence if not located properly.

Any pitch can easily be up and over if not properly located. Aiming low & away and missing over the middle can get whiplash just as surely as aiming in on the fists and missing over the middle.

quote:

Originally posted by laflippin:
One of our main conclusions so far is: You've got to have three pitches--a fastball, a breaking ball, and some type of change-up--under command to really use EV well. I guess it could be argued that command of a fastball and a change-up might get you by at lower levels of baseball but...we've become more dedicated to the idea of developing good command of 'the big three' pitch types as a result of Perry's EV studies.

So, my kid continues to develop his 4-seam FB, which is already his command pitch, but he is putting a lot more work into the split-finger FB he uses for a change-up, as well as putting more work into controlling the slider.

How best to use those pitches with filthy EV in any given at-bat is a pretty cool topic.

Every kid should have at least two fastballs - four seam and two seam.

The split finger and forkball run the increased risk of injury. As certainly does the slider.

I would recommend your son work on adding the two seam and a properly thrown curve. And mastering the change. Stay away from the slider and split.

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
You don't always have command of the same pitches each day...fight your battles with your strengths that day.


Bottom line, I want my pitcher to have confidence in what he throws and not be dictated too much by the count unless the game situation demands it.

Hitters hit mistakes... sometimes they will hit a good pitch in a great location. Tip your hat and get the next guy because if my pitcher has command of 3 pitches that day, as a catcher I know the cards are stacked in my favor and I'm going to have alot of fun.

I agree with the assessment that the original questions has too many variables for a simple answer. Things that make coaching fun are a part of the answer:
1. What pitcher is on the mound and what is his strength?
2. What is working well for my pitcher that day?
3. What are the hitter's strengths and weaknesses?
4. What is the situation and score in the game?
5. What has the plate umpire been calling this game?
These are a few things that help shape the decision about how to throw a hitter what a he doesn't expect. It is what makes the game so fun and allows everyone to second guess every coach at any level. Then you think about all of these things and have to be careful not to over think the hitter!

I have been a varsity pitching coach for the last 3 years, 1 year freshmen. Play at a very high level of talent.

3-0 pitch Fastball

I track the batting avgs of every count with what pitch was thrown... Hitters against my team that put the ball in play on 3-0 vs a fastball are only hitting .189

what was the prior pitch,,what tendencies did the batter display earler in this count ?, or at his last at bat?
you can spot a hitters weaknesses usually after watching him swing a few times

I don't think enough attention is spent on who is at bat.
I've seen a pitcher throw fastballs past the batter.
The batter can not catch up to it.
And then they throw him a change up. WHY??
EH

You see kids get hurt alot with a change up after they have already established the fact the kid just cant catch up. I can not tell you how many times I have said thank you to the other team when they throw a change to our #8 batter and he smokes one in the gap. The best pitch to a very good hitter is the change up in a fastball count. The worst pitch to a bad hitter is a change up in a fastball count. Seen it alot of times.

Coach May, Most of the time the coach is calling the pitch??
There should not be a set pattern that a pitcher throw's.
You have to be unpredictable as a pitcher.
Coaches need to pay more attention to who there pitching to.

Some coaches use the same pattern of pitches year after year.
0-2 count on the batter, Down and away the next 3 pitches.
The opposing coach just tells batter, Look to go opposite field with the ball.
Just a couple of High inside pitches would be nice. You know, Back them off the plate a little.
EH

Our catchers call the games. But we make sure they dont get into patterns etc and we watch the game and talk between innings. A coach that knows how to call pitches and knows how to set up batters is huge. Just like a catcher who can do it. My point is I dont care if the #8 hitter was told he was getting a fb he aint going to hit a 91 mph fb. He is late on two straight **** shots and he aint catching up. Then they try to get smart and fool him with a change up. All they did was speed up his bat and let him get a hit. They outsmarted themselves. Coaches over coach often.

Yes they do sometimes.

If a batter fouled off your fastball on a 1-2 count, I would not throw him another fastball on the next pitch.

If they can't catch up to your fastball, Don't throw a change-up.

And don't try to throw it past a hitter with a fastball down the middle of the plate. You might get away with it when your young. But a good hitter will start teeing off sooner are later.
Location, location, location.
EH

Yep I totally agree. What I hate to see is a pitcher get ahead 0-2 and now the coach decides he is going to nibble off the plate and end up letting the hitter back into the ab. Throw something that he will feel he has to chase. Come up and in off the plate or up and away off the plate. Change eye levels on the hitter. Most hitters are looking low and away down 0-2. Alot of hits in this count on pitches just off the plate and a little low because the hitter has game planned to attack this pitch and he is looking for it. Dont hang a 0-2 deuce. If your going to throw the deuce on 0-2 start it in the zone and break it out of the zone or in the dirt out of the zone. There is no advantage to getting up 0-2 if your going to give the advantage away by throwing total waste pitches. Each pitch should have a specific purpose. Based on the previous pitches and reactions to them and previous ab's and how they reacted in those situations. JMHO

The FB isn't used enough in high school. Over the past few years, I've seen the breaking ball take over the game. Location is KEY. Teach the pitcher to throw his FB at different speeds/location. Hey, throw a BP FB in every once in a while.
I agree with Coach May, why throw anything else if you can control the hitter with FB's?
In calling pitches it depends upon what batter you're facing and what type of pitcher is on the bump.
Do not get into a pattern...pitch backwards every once in a while. This game is all about making adjustments...
This is a GREAT GAME!