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Pitching and Size

H Hopperhop100+ posts
I have a general question regarding pitchers and size. What is the reason that a pitcher who is 6" 2" tall and 185 lbs would be preferred over a pitcher who is 5'9" and 185 lbs. if both were throwing the same same speed. What difference does the size make if they throw the same speed and have the same "stuff".

Also, I was talking to a dad at one of the showcase baseball games that my son was attending and he said a college coach he was talking to said he didn't care how fast a pitcher throws he would not consider him if he is under 6' tall. After hearing this comment, I started looking on some DI college baseball sites and most of the pitchers were indeed 6' or taller. Some of the DIII teams that I looked at have pitchers that are shorter but the top programs had mostly pitchers taller than 6'.

Obviously, there must be something to the "tall" pitcher theory, I just am not sure what or why it is. Thank you in advance for any insight you can give me on this issue!!
Don't shift the responsibility of your success in this game to somebody else. Be perservering about it. Pay the price and you'll come out where merit takes you. - Branch Rickey
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K KCBaseball100+ posts
As stated above, the downward angle is increased. Also, the wingspan of a taller pitcher is greater. The arms are longer and the release point, when combined with the longer stride, is just that much closer to home plate. The difference may be small, but its said to make the ball harder to pick up and harder to hit. Both are slight advantages, but when combined, advantages none the less.
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
KC I have heard that expressed by MLB scouts. I read an article in Sports Illustrated a few years ago and several scouts said that plus were told npt to submit a report on a RHP unless he was 6'2" +.
I have a LHP friend in the minors who was told his bonus would have bee higher if he was tallr. He always put 6'1" on his stats but he was barely 5'11". He was taken about 3 rounds later than he should have been.
I am not so sure I believe all of this but Tall has been a plus factor.
T Texan1,000+ posts
So the 6'2" pitcher is, say, 5" closer to home plate that the 5'11" pitcher. That is a 0.7% closer to home plate. Yes, not even 1%.

As for the angle, the difference in angle between a 6'2" pitcher and a 5'11" pitcher is a mere 0.2 degrees. Next to nothing.

Obviously, these "advantages" would easily be far overwhelmed by other factors.
IB Innocent Bystander500+ posts
This is something that always bothered me, you have guys like Pedro,Bartolo,Maddeux,Hudson,Wagner... just to name a few who are lucky if they're 6' in shoes who have been very successful.But they still don't seem to give the 6' a fight'n chance. Not fair but just the way it is. Some people are good looking and some people look like me. Now how fair is that?
Last edited by Innocent Bystander
L LOW337100+ posts
Height is a touchy issue w/ some. Some clubs will not sign anybody under 6 feet. The most often given reason. They don't pitch in the big leagues. Which is true for the most part. There are a little more than a handful of guys under 6 ft that have been more than successful, but on the whole they don't pitch there.

Now if you never draft/sign them then they never will.

They like size and velocity but that is not the end all. Ht and Wt, frame, build, mother and father (will wt be an issue), rear, shoulders, arms, hands, make-up on and off the field, arm action, pitchability, future role. They see a kid 18 yrs old. what will he look like when he is 25-28. If he is 5'10" and weighs 175 lbs, mother and father are skinny as rails, but he has command of three pitches but throws it 85-8 mph, there is very little chance he will pitch in the big leagues. Some guys make a big jump in velocity but it doesn't occur that often.

Guys like the high velocity because
high velocity simply means, that hitter has less time to react, and pitcher's margin for error is larger. Secondary stuff will likely be as good. 89-93 FB usually equates to 78-83 CB. Now off-speed stuff is another question. Has to have feel for it. Does it have depth. If he sells it w/ FB armspeed then it will more than likely have depth. Hitters hit armspeed not what you threw, or how much something broke or didn't break.

Angle or Plane is important. Don't get all worked up about the exact degree of angle. Down hill plane is preferred.

Alot of it is percentages, and the percentages favor big durable pitchers who throw hard. You go throw every 5th day and log in over 200 innings in 9 months and see how you hold up.
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
Fat won't cut it unless you are David Wells.

There is a big difference in the delivery of a tall Lanky pitcher. Why do you think they talk body type that they look for. The short body is usually accompanied by shorter arms and fingers. It called leverage and it translates into increased effort to launch the pitch.
That is not to say that there are not great shorter pitchers. I have a friend who has thrown 85+ since 15. About 5'7" with a very athletic body. He is a JR in a D1 NCAA school in the soutn now throwing 90+. He is a closer primarily because he runs out of enegy after 2 innings. he tends to get beat up after 2-3 innings. I am not suggesting his tongue is dragging on the ground but he loses the edge.
This is just my opinion. That stocky short pitcher can be very tough and I have seen many of these but they dont throw like a tall skinny lanky guy.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
It may not be fair but that’s the way it is. You’re preaching to the choir. The people that evaluate players and the factors they use to evaluate players are the only things that matter. If they like short hair I would get my son a hair cut and not even mention how good your son's hair looks. If they like collared shirts I would wear a shirt with a collar. If my son was a 5’11” pitcher and they have 6’ as a minimum, I would move on or change positions. (which in my son’s case is exactly what happened). You may disagree with the requirements, but you can’t change them. You’ll have to ask THEM why they like tall pitchers. Even if they have no valid answer, their opinion is the only thing that counts. But since it’s being discussed I will give you my opinion of how important I think height is when it comes to pitchers in the higher levels of baseball. The taller body is geometrically better suited to throwing a baseball with more velocity and the larger hands that come with the added height should be able to control the ball better than a shorter pitcher. Others have talked about the distance and the angle differences too. When you add up the increased heights, the increased “wingspan”, the delivery angle, the shorter distance, the larger hands, and the obvious geometric advantage, the taller player has a distinct advantage over the shorter player (in my opinion). My son was a weekend starter in the SEC and pitched in every series his sophomore year. He had a mid 90’s mph fastball with an excellent breaking ball and I suggested he stay off the mound simply because he was 6’ tall. Luckily the coach gave him the choice to either continue pitching or play a position his junior year of college and he quit pitching with height being one of the major factors.
Fungo
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Texan,

Here are some reasons that have been in scouting for a long time. My comments (FWIW) are below each.

1 - The smaller pitcher is more likely to break down.

IMO - This has turned out to be an "old wives" tale! All pitchers, all sizes, are breaking down. I don't see any evidence that heighth has anything to do with this!

2 - The smaller pitcher has less upside.

IMO - This is true to a certain extent, but shorter pitchers have proven to improve greatly once out of high school ie. Billy Wagner.

3 - The taller pitcher creates a better (downward) angle for all his pitches, especially breaking ball.

IMO - This is the major advantage of the taller pitcher. This advantage is hard to measure, but it certainly exists.

4 - The taller pitcher is more likely to master additional pitches with better movement because of hand size and afore mentioned angle to the plate.

IMO - There is an advantage, but many shorter pitchers have large hands.

5 - The taller pitcher is often the one who has more room to gain additional strength.

IMO - Part of the upside argument.

In addition (IMO) - Times are changing due to the number of 6-0 and shorter pitchers who have become very successful in the Big Leagues. There actually is a "slight advantage" in being a 5-10, 5-11 pitcher. They are in the minority!

If hitters faced all 6-5, 6-6 pitchers every AB for 10 straight games, then a 5-10 pitcher...everything would look different and force adjustments to be made. What you hit the best is what you see the most!

Now days, probably the most common in the Major Leagues is a 6-3 to 6-5 pitcher throwing a 90-92 mph fastball with some sink and/or run. It's a great pitch, but hitters see it a lot.

That said, talent is always #1 and size comes after that. Smaller pitchers will always be the exception. I just think we're likely to see more of them in the future.

RHP Jeremy Hellickson was drafted in the top 4 rounds last year and he is under 6-0. If he were 6-2, 6-3 he would have been a 1st rounder. I thought he should have been at least a 2nd rounder, anyway, based on his ability! Sometimes it takes a long time to change thinking. Pitchers like Hellickson might just change that thinking.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
PG, A very good post. While you do point out that height (or lack of) is an additional challenge for the shorter pitcher, it's refreshing to know to that someone in your capacity does not eliminate that pitcher JUST because of his size. I wonder what the first football coach said to Tom Dempsey when he limped onto the football field and said he wanted to be a place-kicker or when Spud Webb stood up and said he wanted to try out for the basketball team.
Fungo
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
About 4 years ago at our Indoor Pitcher Catcher showcase in Cedar Rapids Iowa a senior from a small town in Wisconsin showed up.

We had heard he was pretty good, but being from a more remote part of Wisconsin not many had heard about him. He was not recruited by DI schools and none of the pro scouts knew him. He was a 3 sport star in addition to being a pitcher in high school.

At that time he was a 5-11 very lean RHP with a fast arm. A real fast arm! He also looked very competitive and showed a potentialy good breaking ball. His fastball was around 90 mph even in the middle of winter.

As luck would have it a friend and college recruiter at a DI power program called needing a pitcher. The rest is history, he quickly became a star as a freshman in the ACC. His soph year he became that colleges best pitcher.

He did have TJ surgery last year and red shirted repeating his Junior year this season. It will be interesting to see what happens with the draft. If he comes back strong as before we expect him to go in the first few rounds.

RHP Jason Berken, Depere, Wisconsin... Now listed at 6-0/200 at highly ranked Clemson University in South Carolina. Talent is always the #1 thing.
D Diamondboy10+ posts
To PGStaff's point about talent always being #1:

In response to a question from a friend, I recently went to the MLB website to survey pitchers on all of the major league rosters. Approximately 600 pitchers total. 194 are listed at 6’ 1” or less. That’s just about one third. (Two-thirds of this group is right handed). And we all know that 1 to 2 inch “enhancements” are common. The 6’ 1” and under group includes:

Bartolo Colon; Francisco Rodriguez; Scot Shields; Brandon Backe; Roy Oswalt; Rich Harden; Huston Street; Mike Hampton; Tim Hudson; Ben Sheets; Jason Marquis; Sidney Ponson; Scott Eyre; Greg Maddux; Glendon Rusch; Scott Williamson; Casey Fossum; Russ Ortiz; Odalis Perez; Jeff Fassero; Paul Byrd; Jamie Moyer; Jarrod Washburn; Tom Glavine; Pedro Martinez; Billy Wagner; Victor Zambrano; Ramon Ortiz; Trevor Hoffman; Jake Peavy; Woody Williams; Rheal Cormier; Tom Gordon; Cory Lidle; Julio Santana; Randy Wolf; Salomon Torres; Keith Foulke; Ray King; Elmer Dessens; Kenny Rogers; Johan Santana.

I could have included a few more vets, but cumulatively this list represents some pretty good success and longevity. I would also add that a team with a fairly decent reputation for pitching know-how and success – the Atlanta Braves – lists 10 pitchers on a roster of 18 at 6’ 1” and under, including three under 6’. Do they know something?

Depending on your perspective, the list probably cuts both ways. Some will say that given the relatively small number of people who fall in the 6’ 2” and over category, that’s a pretty impressive percentage represented on major league pitching staffs. On the other hand, given the expressed preference for taller pitchers in the draft, it’s a bit surprising how many in the smaller category make it, and make it big.

I understand all the theories about trajectory and stamina and flexibility and leverage, but does success at the highest level tell us anything? I don’t see many Randy Johnsons in major league baseball. Through the years I’ve seen a bunch of 6’ 7”, 6’ 8” pitchers come through high school here in SoCal, but they almost never seem to succeed at the highest level. So at what point does all this lankiness and leverage reach a point of diminishing returns?

I guess what I’m saying is that I’ve heard all the arguments but I still don’t quite get it. And don’t get me wrong – I have a 14 year old son who is already over 6 feet so I’m not doing this to make myself feel better. Has professional baseball really run the numbers and found that size succeeds in the long run, or is this another wall to hide behind when a major prospect fizzles? I really don’t know the answer, but I think the question needs to be asked.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
While it's true that the taller pitchers are usually drafted earlier and paid the high bonus'... In the end they all get paid what their talent dictates.

That list that Diamondboy put together includes some very rich (though not tall) pitchers.

Unforunately, the smaller pitchers have to prove their value on the field. If they do that, they get filthy rich. Talent is still #1 and more important than size (in the end)!
Last edited by PGStaff
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
I found this and thought it was interesting...

quote:
Originally posted by Diamondboy:
To PGStaff's point about talent always being #1:

In response to a question from a friend, I recently went to the MLB website to survey pitchers on all of the major league rosters. Approximately 600 pitchers total. 194 are listed at 6’ 1” or less. That’s just about one third. (Two-thirds of this group is right handed). And we all know that 1 to 2 inch “enhancements” are common. The 6’ 1” and under group includes:

Bartolo Colon; Francisco Rodriguez; Scot Shields; Brandon Backe; Roy Oswalt; Rich Harden; Huston Street; Mike Hampton; Tim Hudson; Ben Sheets; Jason Marquis; Sidney Ponson; Scott Eyre; Greg Maddux; Glendon Rusch; Scott Williamson; Casey Fossum; Russ Ortiz; Odalis Perez; Jeff Fassero; Paul Byrd; Jamie Moyer; Jarrod Washburn; Tom Glavine; Pedro Martinez; Billy Wagner; Victor Zambrano; Ramon Ortiz; Trevor Hoffman; Jake Peavy; Woody Williams; Rheal Cormier; Tom Gordon; Cory Lidle; Julio Santana; Randy Wolf; Salomon Torres; Keith Foulke; Ray King; Elmer Dessens; Kenny Rogers; Johan Santana.

I could have included a few more vets, but cumulatively this list represents some pretty good success and longevity. I would also add that a team with a fairly decent reputation for pitching know-how and success – the Atlanta Braves – lists 10 pitchers on a roster of 18 at 6’ 1” and under, including three under 6’. Do they know something?

Depending on your perspective, the list probably cuts both ways. Some will say that given the relatively small number of people who fall in the 6’ 2” and over category, that’s a pretty impressive percentage represented on major league pitching staffs. On the other hand, given the expressed preference for taller pitchers in the draft, it’s a bit surprising how many in the smaller category make it, and make it big.

I understand all the theories about trajectory and stamina and flexibility and leverage, but does success at the highest level tell us anything? I don’t see many Randy Johnsons in major league baseball. Through the years I’ve seen a bunch of 6’ 7”, 6’ 8” pitchers come through high school here in SoCal, but they almost never seem to succeed at the highest level. So at what point does all this lankiness and leverage reach a point of diminishing returns?

I guess what I’m saying is that I’ve heard all the arguments but I still don’t quite get it. And don’t get me wrong – I have a 14 year old son who is already over 6 feet so I’m not doing this to make myself feel better. Has professional baseball really run the numbers and found that size succeeds in the long run, or is this another wall to hide behind when a major prospect fizzles? I really don’t know the answer, but I think the question needs to be asked.
Last edited by floridafan
BumBum1,000+ posts
As the father of a sub-6ft LHP I can give you my observations of short vs. lanky.

1) I have not found any credible evidence that smaller pitchers break down faster than taller pitchers.

2) Taller pitchers have the advantage of strikeouts low in the zone due to their favorable downward plane. They tend to get hit up in the zone. Shorter pitchers have the advantage of strikeouts up in the zone due to their favorable "upward plane" (batters see the ball as rising much like a softball pitcher) but tend to get hit low in the zone. Overall, I find it to be a wash either way.

3) Taller pitchers might project to throw harder simply because of the longer throwing circle. But having said that, there are plenty of examples of hard-throwing shorter pitchers. I would choose the taller pitcher if I am projecting him to be a future power pitcher 95+ but otherwise either pitcher may have plus pitchability.

4) Taller pitchers have the advantage of releasing the ball closer to the plate, but there are plenty of examples of shorter pitchers with long strides that compensate for this advantage, such as Tim Lincecum.

Summary: A taller pitcher has a definite advantage, but this advantage is not insurmountable for a shorter pitcher. The shorter pitcher who has plus movement, stuff, and deception along with decent velocity can easily overcome any height disadvantage. Also, as noted, shorter pitchers tend to mess up the "eye-angle" of batters used to taller pitchers throwing down in the zone, and these pitchers can have great success doing the reverse (throwing up in the zone).
Last edited by Bum
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
Great stuff BUM:

You could also add that shorter pitchers have an advantage of releasing different pitches (Change/curve/FB/etc) coming out of a similar "tunnel" and more difficult to pick up. Perry Husband who has done lots of work on pitchers deception actually prefers harder throwing shorter pitchers who can change speeds.

As the father of a tall pitcher I can also add that taller pitchers tend to take longer to develop consistent mechanics as they have long limbs moving all over the place with out the muscle structure to support them.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by BOF:
As the father of a tall pitcher I can also add that taller pitchers tend to take longer to develop consistent mechanics as they have long limbs moving all over the place with out the muscle structure to support them.


Not sure I understand that one, can you explain?
RT Roger Tomas100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BOF:
You could also add that shorter pitchers have an advantage of releasing different pitches (Change/curve/FB/etc) coming out of a similar "tunnel" and more difficult to pick up. Perry Husband who has done lots of work on pitchers deception actually prefers harder throwing shorter pitchers who can change speeds.

I don't get this. What makes shorter pitchers better able to tunnel their pitches than taller pitchers?
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
TPM sure:

When kids go through high periods of growth they tend get "tall and lanky" with less muscle mass surrounding their frame than shorter kids. As their body mass catches up with the frame they start to fill out and get the control over their frame.

A case in point when my son was in his high growth period he had trouble striding out consistently as his leg strength was not sufficient to support his body mass when landing. His pitching coach said not to worry - since he knew when his leg strength caught up to his size it would support him properly. Which it has now (for the most part)

He is 6'3ish 160ish now and I am sure when he fills out and stops growing he will have a more consistent delivery. I am not an expert at this, but this is what a number of tall pitchers and pitching coaches have told me.

I'll let you know in a few years
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
What makes shorter pitchers better able to tunnel their pitches than taller pitchers?


Probably was not too clear in my post but here is what Perry has to say on the subject. From his book 3.

“The second reason is that of visual recognition; taller and higher the release point, the more immediate the recognition of pitches, especially when their primary location is down and away with a fastball. Every pitch is distinguishable from the tall pitcher’s down and away fastball. No one other strike can possibly be in line with the downward pitch, not even slider or hard cutter. Nothing can be hidden from fastball so all choices from hitters becomes cut and dry, fastball or something slower.

Shorter pitchers are closer to that point where all pitches are coming out of the same slot and every pitch is hidden inside the fastball path. (note earlier in the book he suggested that shorter pitchers with slightly lower release points were even better at deceiving the hitter) When all pitches have fastball characteristics, pressure is applied to the hitter immediately….Give me a staff of 5’8” guys that drop down a bit and squat during their delivery throwing 93MPH with decent change ups and we’ll have some fun.”
55mom55mom1,000+ posts
Our son is now about 6'4". (just turned 15) He had a huge burst of height growth and looked really awkward for a while. He is working with a trainer and his mobility and flexibility has improved greatly. Though he was never what you would call skinny, you could say he lacked the muscle needed for his size.

I don't know anything about scouting, but I feel confident saying that if he relied on his height furthering his goals then he would be out of luck! Being tall may be an advantage, but it is not everything. The taller guys tend to not have that bouncy athleticism many look for. There are certain positions he will never play, so he has to work harder to be better at what he can do. Just saying there are two sides to everything.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by floridafan:
Hey BOF,

What book are you quoting from? I have an up and coming pitcher that is not likely to go much over 6'.


Perry Husband's "Filthy Pitching book 3". In my opinion the best book available for understanding pitch sequencing and deception. Book 3 will get you most of the information you need. It is on my "must read" list for any serious pitcher or pitching coach. It is not an easy read and will go over the head of many kids, but it gives you great tools for communicating with a pitcher pitch selection and sequencing.

http://www.hittingisaguess.com/
RT Roger Tomas100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BOF:
quote:
Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
What makes shorter pitchers better able to tunnel their pitches than taller pitchers?


Probably was not too clear in my post but here is what Perry has to say on the subject. From his book 3.

“The second reason is that of visual recognition; taller and higher the release point, the more immediate the recognition of pitches, especially when their primary location is down and away with a fastball. Every pitch is distinguishable from the tall pitcher’s down and away fastball. No one other strike can possibly be in line with the downward pitch, not even slider or hard cutter. Nothing can be hidden from fastball so all choices from hitters becomes cut and dry, fastball or something slower.

Shorter pitchers are closer to that point where all pitches are coming out of the same slot and every pitch is hidden inside the fastball path. (note earlier in the book he suggested that shorter pitchers with slightly lower release points were even better at deceiving the hitter) When all pitches have fastball characteristics, pressure is applied to the hitter immediately….Give me a staff of 5’8” guys that drop down a bit and squat during their delivery throwing 93MPH with decent change ups and we’ll have some fun.”


Thanks. I actually have Perry's 3 books - I just haven't read then yet. And while I know about effective velocity and tunneling, I hadn't heard this part about taller vs. shorter pitchers. Time to crack open those books.

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