Pitching beliefs and Myths

Welcome Bryant48.

Some people around here will disagree with your long toss view because of personal experiences - but I think you do look at the subject much in the same way I do.

I've always questioned long toss for pitchers because it involves using mechanics that are different from those used on the mound.  Once the pitcher has reached a distance where they cannot throw the ball on a line using their regular pitching mechanics, there is not much to be gained by going further.  You are then training to throw the ball far - not pitch. I don't subscribe to the theory that long toss builds strength -simply because the ball doesn't know how far it is being thrown. You could just as easily be throwing the ball into a wall 20 feet away and achieve the same thing.

On the other hand, I think there is value to long toss at max distance for fielders because it is a skill they will need in the game.  They are training to use the mechanics that will maximize that skill.

Of course there are those pitchers who have improved their velocity after starting a long toss program, so I can't say it doesn't work for some. There are many experts who advocate long toss, so who am I to say they are wrong?  I just know what seems logical to me.

Many baseball experts are in favor of long toss.  Not every pitcher uses the same program.  There are many success stories, including some of the top pitchers in the game.

i think the throwing action is not much different.  You have to take into account throwing off a mound and throwing on flat ground will change the angles of the body. From the mound most pitchers are dropping some 6 inches, some even more, from start to landing foot.

The one thing that confuses me is how long toss has managed to stay out of all the TJ theories.  When the medical studies were done, did they ask all the TJ injured guys... Did you use long toss?  If so, how And how often?

I'm not saying that long toss is causing injuries.  But some of the other things they come up with make less sense.  Wonder how many that required TJ surgery had used long toss?  What if it were 100%?  Even then would that mean anything other than simply provide information about what pitchers do.

Not looking to spark yet another long toss debate... I really don't know if it's a good thing, great thing, or terrible thing when it comes right down to it.

I do think that LT builds arm strength though.  You're right, the ball doesn't know how far it's being thrown.  But you're not training the ball.  The thrower knows what he's reaching for with each throw.  And you're right that making the exact same throw against a wall 20 ft away would have the same developmental impact.  But this would not provide the thrower with needed feedback on each throw.  He needs to see if the ball is on a proper line or has too much arc, if it's tailing off, and if it's getting to the desired distance or not.

There are probably many professionals that use long toss and advocate their benefits. Just like there are many professionals who advocate using ice after pitching, which has been proven to not aid in the recovery process (actually increases recovery time). Just because they are professionals, doesn't mean you should take their words and beliefs as being the right way. As from the view of throwing long toss on flat ground and pitching on a decline, I believe the argument is still flawed. If I were to throw long toss down a hill, my elbow would still be leading my arm through my delivery. This action alone, is what causes elbow pain. It's the mechanics, elbow leading the throw, of the (long toss) throw which causes the pain, not the angle of which your body is positioned.

Actually the AMSI testing and data was flawed because of the release angle and velocity measurements. Long time poster here CADad (come home!)  pointed this out to them some time ago. (takes a rocket scientist to find these things)

Second data point, my son's velo jumped this year, which was partially attributed to his weight lifting program during the off season which was very lower body focused. I know Kyle Body and Wolforth both have weight training in their regimes. 

The main point I try to make clear on the blog is what does long toss bring to your pitching during the game? Most people long toss because the want to increase arm strength and they believe this relates to velocity. From a kinetics point of view, arm strength doesn't correlate to velocity. Trunk rotation speed (torque) and proper mechanics through the delivery is what causes velocity. Your arm is technically along for the ride. This is why we see kids in the little league world series throwing 70+ mph. They've maximized their mechanics to get everything they can out of their young bodies. Why spend a lot of time perfecting a form (LT) that doesn't match up with the form needed off the mound?

Well.....this topic is going to fall into the category of talking politics, or religion...some have such strong beliefs one way or the other, that you will not change their minds...NO MATTER WHAT!

Personally, I fall into the category of - I don't like pitchers throwing past 180' - period.  Any further than that, your release point gets further and further back, and the further back your release point gets, at max effort, directly relates to increase in elbow strain (its a slamming of the elbow effect).  All elbows get into the "laid back" ~90 degrees position, however the amount of slam after release increases with longer distances.  Additionally, to get the distance, you have to entirely change from what you do from an elevated mound.  I know the Jaeger's of the world will say, "well, we have the pull down phase, as we get back in close"....maybe it's just me, but I don't buy it.

I like Kyle, and Wolforth....heck Tom House is a great guy, as is Dick Mills.  Each have great input into pitching, however as I stated in another recent thread...you have to work based on the pitcher you are working with.  Quoted from our last post - "you aren't going to get CC Sabathia moving like Roy Oswalt, however both in their prime were high velocity pitchers".  Yes, there are some constants, however one size does not fit all.  Sequencing efficient pitching mechanics is a tough battle, and there are slight variations of how to get the most elastic energy stored, and then released.

Kyle mentioned in the other thread, that he has moved Bauer from linear / rotational guy, into less linear, and heavy rotational.  He then mentioned Bauer was having great velocity gains again, however his command was not good.  Well...maybe a heavy emphasis in rotational, equates into a "larger release window" at ball release?  I don't know this to be the case, but it makes sense it is possible. 

OK, I agree 100% with you on the uselessness/risk of long toss and don't use it myself. However, unless I'm missing something, what is your point on the elbow leading the arm through delivery? Is that not the mechanics of every throw? At least of every throw that doesn't fall to the ground after 20 feet.

Sorry about the confusing wording there. What I'm trying to get across is that the elbow leads the whole motion when playing long toss. I think the picture on my website should help explain it from a visual standpoint. You see, at release, the arm is somewhat vertical. When pitching, your arm (throwing hand/ball) continues through the delivery (past the elbow) and the stress moves away from the elbow. The force behind the ball, when long tossing, is primarily placed on the elbow because of the mechanics. When pitching, the trunk rotation is the cause for the force on the ball thus taking away the stress on the elbow.

Bryant48,

First of all, I applaud your efforts.

However these are you opinions, based on how you went about reaching success. Others have reached an even higher level of success doing exactly the things you claim are worthless..

While your opinions should be respected, why should anyone discount the beliefs of others as myths?

Now if we were dealing with proven facts, we could easily figure this out. But is one person's experience provide us with anything other than one case to study.

It has been proven many times that long toss has increased velocity! Many swear by it!  Some of these include Cy Young winners and Hall of Famers.  I'm sure some have increased velocity without utilizing long toss. So what does that all mean?

Here is my question... Is long toss a possible cause of injury?  There is no doubt with the popularity of long toss increasing a lot during a period of time when arm/elbow injuries have skyrocketed. Even position players are having elbow surgery these days.

Rather than findings that show pitchers pitch too much, play travel ball, go to showcases, etc.  What about do they lift weight, do they long toss, do they ice, etc.

Heck, I don't even have to ask, I already know that most of the best pitchers, the ones that throw with the most velocity, the ones that are most "successful" are the most likely to play travel ball or go to showcases. Not much reason for the bad ones to showcase their skills.  But I don't know how each of these pitchers trains or how they take care of their arm.

You can practice your mechanics and work on lots of things without max effort. Can you throw long toss without max effort?  You can work on core and lower body strength without the throwing.  you obviously are throwing when you long toss.  How many long tosses over a long period of time is healthy?  Is there a number where it becomes dangerous?

So to me, the question is not whether long toss increases throwing ability or if it is a waste of time. Too many cases of success to question that. My question is, is it dangerous? Could it be one of the reasons we have so many TJ surgeries these days?

I think it is worth someone doing a study! Even if they find out it is dangerous, people will continue to do it.  The risk of getting hurt won't stop people from trying to reach their potential.

The author hasn't stated anything that can't be found on Dick Mills' site or ASMI. Not sure what debate we're supposed to have here that hasn't already been had 10,000 times.

The ASMI data being flawed is an interesting take. I hadn't heard that and the study looked fairly comprehensive when I read through it (though the ridiculous conclusions that have been drawn from it have nothing to do with the actual data).

Being an analytical kind of guy, when my son(doing pitching and playing two way through HS) asked me if I thought he should do Long Toss, I had to study it before I could answer him.  And based on what little I could find at the time, I felt there was sufficient evidence that LT was indeed helpful. . .IF done correctly.  Like any other drill, it can be done wrong and/or be abused (and from my observations, it often is when not being supervised).  If one is doing LT to see how far they can throw, then that would be an abuse of the drill, which is not designed for using maximum effort and doing so is simply setting one's self up for injury.  Correct LT drills can help with building core strength and flexibility, but like any repeated activity, having no other type of drills to go along doesn't provide balance to the body for effective conditioning towards that goal.

My son continues to do LT as part of his routine. He stopped being a two way player on entry into D1 college baseball and no longer pitches as he chose to concentrate on being a position player. He used to sit at 90-91 and topped out at 93-94 with his fast ball. When he hit those top velocities, I'd ask him if he was throwing at maximum effort.  He'd smile at me and say, "Oh Dad, you know you don't pitch fastballs at maximum effort and be accurate."   I always worried about his arm, especially since he was a two way player and often was put on the mount in the middle of a game with not much warm up.  Thankfully, he's never had an arm problem to date and is starting his 2nd year of pro-ball.  I don't know how much LT may have helped, but I do give some credit to it.

PS:  Yes, my son did occasionally try to see just how far he could throw the ball and in college freshman year he told me he had thrown from foul pole to foul pole once. As impressive as that was to me, I really made an effort not to encourage such displays. 

Kyle, CADad discovered that when they were measuring release velocities is was on the ground, the launch angle is typically around 30% so if you take the actual velocity (out of hand on angle) it would be under reported due to the cosign error, therefore the loads were over reported for a assumed velocity. He tried to contact them and discuss it but they had already published the data and let it stand. 

This is all water under the bridge now. 

How interesting. I may have to brush off the trigonometry and take a crack at it myself. If anyone has the full text of the study, I'd love to take a peek. (I have long since lost it.)

Is long toss defined? Meaning certain distance? One may be able to take a casual step and sling the thing just as far as the next guy who has to take a full on crow hop to get it the same distance. I feel it may help a lot of people (myself included) if specifics were involved. ex. 150+ feet= long toss... Something that definite.

As you suggest here, the distance for LT can vary from play to player.   The player that can't match the maximum distance for his partner in the drill, then I'd say they're not matched up properly. . .or at least, the maximum distance in the drill would be the shorter limit between the two partners in the drill.  Again, the LT drill isn't about trying to do maximum effort in the drill.  It's about strengthening those part of the body involved in throwing and more importantly in getting the arm and body ready for throwing in the upcoming game or practice.  It doesn't require maximum effort to do this and it's not wise to do "maximum effort" and put one's arm at risk of injury.  So, if you've got a player that can launch it 350 ft and honestly feels it wasn't a stressed "maximum" effort, it's probably not a problem for that player.  Many other players would not be able to do that. . .and they keep their egos in check and not even try.  

When most pitchers can't throw 55% strikes with any pitch why are you wasting anytime long-tossing.  Take that time to work on learning how to pitch.  

If you are making a argument that long toss should be a part of a conditioning program then there are many things you could do that would be more beneficial as a pitcher.

If you think that it creates arm strength for what.  The arm is the last part of the body that is engaged in the pitching motion, I would worry more about joint integrity (band work and/or light weight work) in the shoulder and elbow, the arm strength argument has never made sense.

What particular muscle is it strengthening that creates more arm speed that you need to increase velocity?  Arm speed is what creates velocity.

The arm swing doesn't take crazy strength, and moving from external rotation to internal rotation and through finishing the pitch, the arm needs joint stability to support the deceleration of the arm, which is where most pitching injuries occur.

I don't care if you long toss, but if you are paying a pitching instructor make sure they can teach you how to emotionally, mentally and physically pitch in a real game.

The old school naked eye approach is what they used when I played, but with today's technology their is no excuse for some of the drills that many coaches and pitchers do.