Pitching, Resting, what's the best route to take?

I'll answer this based on my experience as a college pitcher.

1. No. There should certainly be some time taken off, but starting a throwing program in February is too late. For a reference point, I threw my final mound session for the fall here at my school last Friday, November 9. By time we get back to school in mid-January for the 2nd semester, I am expected to be able to throw 50-60 pitches at 100%. Our season begins February 15. I am currently not throwing, but will resume a long toss program in about 2 1/2 weeks.

2. During the time period in which I am not throwing at all (which is about 3-4 weeks), yes. We still lift and condition hard and continue to do our band work and arm care program.

3. ABSOLUTELY NOT. If you are showcasing, you are still throwing and need to be on a regimented throwing program. Sporadic bursts of 100% effort will result in injury.

4. No. There is a shutdown period and a working period. The workload during the working period varies depending on the amount of throwing designated for that day (aka: building arm strength up), but I don't really believe "slowing down" would be the best way to put it.

5. See #2.

Just for reference as well from a strength and conditioning standpoint, that never stops. We have de-load weeks and power phases and different agility exercises, but its never shutdown. We lift and condition from the minute we set foot on campus until the minute we graduate, in-season or out of season. The training differs, but never stops.

I don't know if this matters but the age I'm talking about is 17-18, They want to attend a showcase in Jan... they want to at some point rest from pitching, but they want to be ready for the showcase.... the conditioning, long tossing and bands goes on throughout the winter at the school.

Dr. Andrews and the guys at ASMI recommend that pitchers shut down at least 3 continuous months a year. That's 3 months of no throwing. When my son was in high school we usually shut him down from Sept through November. HS season here usually starts Feb. 1. We figured he needed 6-8 weeks to work his arm back into shape and build some strength through long toss. As a result, Thanksgiving was usually our signal that it was about time to start getting ready.

Did we shut him down every single fall? No. There was one fall that we did the fall travel/showcase route through mid Oct, then shut him down through Dec. 1. We didn't like doing it, but we felt like we needed to extend his season a little to increase his visability. It's a balancing act. Fall/winter showcases and travel ball seasons are not the best ideas for arm health, but you may have to do it for other reasons.

As JH points out, college is totally different. In 4 years of college son never got to totally shut down for more than 2-3 weeks at a time, unless he was injured, because of fall practice, spring ball, the NCAA tournament, and summer ball.

Be careful with off season showcases. Don't compromise your arm care program. Easier said than done but prior planning makes it possible.

Our son is a college freshman pitcher and I asked him the "shutdown" question last week. I agree with all the comments so far. In college it is difficult to find time to shutdown. His school just finished fall games/scrimmages and they were expected to arrive at school 100% ready to throw. That being said now that games are done the coaches allow each player to decide if they'd like to throw bullpens or rest their arms until practice begins again.

I also agree that you would not want to shutdown a pitcher and then have them throw in a showcase. With the adrenaline flowing and competitive nature of a showcase the chance of injury is too great.

In college if you've pitched alot during the spring and summer you will be shut down during fall practice sessions. I would not recommend throwing for 12 months. Arm does need to rest for at least 8 week period.

My son throw combined 125 innings during spring/ summer seasons and just recently started throwing again taking sept & oct off, doing just conditioning during that time.

I was going to write a long story, but, it boiled down to this.

When in doubt, rest.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I was going to write a long story, but, it boiled down to this.

When in doubt, rest.

You read my mind exactly!

Lefty

quote:

Originally posted by bacdorslider:
I would like to ask for opinions on the following.

Do you feel it is best to shut a pitcher down completely say from Nov to Feb?

I'd probably go October to January. It depends on when that spring season actually starts. I think it's important you take a minimum of three months off from throwing each year. If not more..

Do you shutdown during this time period except for conditioning?

Conditioning and building strength are important things to do during the offseason. Then you must work to continue that throughout the season in a modified format to not only maintain, but continually improve.

Do you shutdown during this period except for showcases?

NO SHOWCASES

Do you not shutdown at all and just slow down?
Do you shutdown completely?

Shut down baseball activities. Play another sport, participate in strength and conditioning activities. No baseball.

Is it just a personal thing different with each pitcher?

What's the best approach?

It seems with spring ball, summer ball, fall ball , showcases, visiting schools camps when do you rest?

If you participate in spring, summer, fall, and showcases all throughout high school you WILL get injured. Showcase directors and club baseball organizations don't want to hear it, but there is documented proof these things lead to injury. Dr. Andrews and Eric Cressey have both come out against showcases specifically. I'm sure others have as well.

I believe rest is important. Not sure 3 month or more is necessary. I respect Doc Andrews a lot, but I've never seen him at a showcase. One thing we have is tons of data. So much that several MLB clubs have made offers to purchase it.

True results easily show that those who rest a lot get injured at the same rate as those who don't rest for long periods.

The whole showcase thing is simply made up. I know people will think I'm saying that because of PG. however, the real problem is not throwing 2 or 3 innings at a showcase. The problem is what happens elsewhere. Pitchers are not abused at showcases, but it happens a lot in HS and Summer teams and fall teams. Yet for some reason people want to blame showcases. Why not blame tryouts, even Tryouts MLB clubs hold? After all, aren't they exactly the same as a showcase?

Bottom line, I can and I will, if asked, give a very long list of Big League pitchers and 1st round picks who not only attended showcases, but attended multiple showcases.

The problem is abuse. The least abusive of all competition is a showcase. We know because we are very much involved in the other stuff as well. Nearly every pitcher at a showcase is shut down long before he wants to be. This doesn't happen all the time in other games.

What is most important is being prepared. And recognizing abuse! Make sure you figure out a schedule that allows for a period of rest.

You will have a hard time finding many high level pitchers that did not go to showcases. When you do find one, his chance for injury is the same as those who did. If not, do we put the blame on the two innings he threw at a showcase or what happened elsewhere?

Doc Andrews looks like he will actually be one of our partners in the new Georgia Complex. Should be very interesting.

December 2005, my son posed this question to Dr. Glenn Fleisig, PhD on the ASMI Sports Medicine Forum:

quote:

I am considering attending a college showcase/clinic that advertises evaluations by coaches in my geographical area. However, I am almost fifteen years old and only in my freshman year in high school. I am 6"4" tall but have no idea what my pitch speeds are. I have been following the ASMI baseball pitchers conditioning program. Is there any harm in attending this showcase ? I'd like college coaches to get my name and see my face.

Read more: http://asmiforum.proboards.com...ad=300#ixzz2CberqOxb

Dr. Fleisig's answer verbatim:

quote:

Dino,
Great question. There is definitely a risk of serious injury when participating in a showcase. The study mentioned above also showed that 18-year-old pitchers with no history of arm injury had participated in an average of 1 showcase in their life so far, while 18-year-old pitchers who have shoulder or elbow sugery had participated in an average of 4 showcases in their life so far.

Now, the study did not prove that the extra showcases caused the arm injuries. In truth, the pitchers who participated in more showcases also pitched more games per year and more months per year, so it's hard to decide the contribution of each factor to the injuries. However, there are certain aspects of some showcases that may cause it to be dangerous. Dr. Jim Andrews has shared stories with me of teenagers who come to him for surgery immediately after a showcase because of the showcase.

You need to decide if the reward is greater than the risk for your situation. If you do choose to go to a showcase, here are some things to avoid:

Going straight from off-season to throwing at full-effort without a pre-season to get your arm and body ready.
Trying to throw extra-hard to impress the scouts.
Trying to throw extra-hard because a radar gun is being used.
Too much throwing in a short period of time. For instance, high pitch-counts on consecutive days, pitching twice in one day, high number of throws without taking a break (like between innings).
Intentionally or unintentionally changing your pitching mechanics.


Read more: http://asmiforum.proboards.com...ad=300#ixzz2Cbf9pSvl

My son did later attend a PerfectGame showcase. As well as other showcase formats and pro tryouts. I will say this....not all showcases are run the same. If you don't insist on the proper preparation you could get rushed on the mound to perform. Your destiny is in your own hands, it's not the responsibility of the showcase to ensure you have prepared.

http://www.ericcressey.com/bas...oney-and-get-injured

http://www.baseball-excellence...ructionsdetail&id=44

http://www.andrewscenters.com/...ge.php?name=OneSport


I've said it and I'm very clear and truthful when I say it. And I'm not afraid to say it. Club sports continue to bring down youth athletics and high school athletics. And I expect it will continue for some time.

I respect PGStaff a lot because he brings a TON to the table here at HSBBW, but I do believe his organization holds fault in the increase in injuries. I just looked on their website and it just blows me away that they have tournaments or showcases going basically year round. But let's remember they're not the only ones. There are plenty of places we can put some of this blame. Colleges, professional sports, the parents, coaches, etc.


Unfortunately this is not a baseball problem. It goes much further than that. Overuse injuries continue to rise and they will continue to do so for a long time in our current mixed-model athletics. Softball, volleyball, basketball, and s****r are all just as bad if not worse.

Guess I'm not knowledgable about "all" showcases. I can say that in nearly 20 years we have never had a pitcher go directly from a showcase to arm surgery. And if that happened, it would be caused by something other than the showcase appearance. In fact, our records show far more injuries to position players at our showcases. That includes arm injuries.

We have data regarding many thousands of pitchers. Some of them have had surgery at some point. I doubt a single one of those who had surgery would point to their showcase appearance as a reason, let alone the major reason. The documentation people talk about involves one group of pitchers... Those that require surgery. And of course, the better pitchers who are also the ones who attend multiple showcases. Most all the top pitchers will go to 3 or more showcases in a year. I can prove that!

Our data includes those who have had surgery, but more importantly it also includes those that remained healthy until they went off to college or pro ball. Obviously the surgeons gather their information researching those that are injured. The only thing all injured pitchers have in common is they pitched and they were injured.

Pitchers are at risk whenever they pitch. They need to be ready to pitch before they pitch. If anyone believes no showcases will keep you healthy, you are sadly mistaken.

It's easy to put blame on showcases. It's true that most pitchers that are really good attend showcases. It's also true that most pitchers that are really good seem to throw more often outside of showcases. It's true that most pitchers that require surgery are good pitchers. It's not the showcase it's the accumulation. If a kid throws 200 innings, some without sufficient recovery time, desparetly trying to win games, is it the 2 or 3 innings at a showcase that caused the problem?

Bulldog,

I believe your field of expertise is conditioning and I respect that. We know that Doc Andrews field of expertise is medicine/surgery.

One of our partners is Kevin Barr. Kevin is recognized as one of the very best strength and conditioning people in all of baseball. He is the strength and conditioning guy for the Tampa Bay Rays. I respect him very much also. I will see him next at our showce in Florida over the holidays next month.

Please understand that there are players playing year around. This would happen even if we didn't exist. Even in the north there has been a gigantic increase of indoor facilities. This has helped many young players improve their skills and to be identified for the next level. I suppose there is risk involved. But there are also rewards in many cases.

Once again, I can give a very long list of players and pitchers who attended winter showcases. Many would tell you it was that winter showcase in front of scouts that helped them the most. The list would include everything from Cy Young winners, this years gold glove winners, to MVPs, to many first round picks, to many college All Americans.

Are you saying they shouldn't have done that during the off season or we shouldn't be providing that opportunity?

We are in Puert Rico right now running a showcase. There are 50 to 70 ML scouts at the event. It is going to make a big difference in several young kids life. Are you saying we are a problem by holding this event?

Is there some risk involved... Absolutely! It would be much safer if we were running an accounting camp.

Also, I was going to college camps, even working them, in the winters, over 20 years ago. Of course, that would be another topic that isn't mentioned as often when all the studies come out.

I agree with taking care of the arm and the body. I believe in rest and recovery. I believe in conditioning and I believe in staying away from doing stupid things.

Why do you suppose they have Winter League Baseball? Obviously all the medical experts would not recommend that,

Showcase and camp promoters, travel coaches, hold no responsibility for a pitchers injury. The responsibility belongs to the parent, after all NO ONE has as much interest as to your pitchers well being than YOU!

I do know of some parents that will admit they overdid the camp, tournament, showcase stuff while their player was in HS, and some who will not admit it. Pitchers often admit it themselves when they sustain major injury. Injuries can happen at any time, but it has been proven that overuse is the main culprit. Some parents do bring their pitchers from showcase to showcase (not always the same company) and camp to camp for exposure. Even after they commit, they still are out there for draft purposes. I say let those guys that are high up on the list blow out their arms out if they want, not my pitcher. You can get your draft exposure senior year. Many are given the impression that the more you expose the player the more it benefits them, so they IMO over expose the pitcher and subject them to possibly injury.

The information provided by ASMI as a guideline is valuable, parents have to understand there are risks everytime the pitcher throws the ball. The whole idea is keeping risks to a minimum. Be smart.

The risk in attending these events is not in how little a pitcher has to pitch that day, but how you prepare before you go. Throwing from a mound takes preparation. Once the pitcher shuts down, weeks later he can't just go throw bullpen and then go off to the showcase/camp. It's very tempting but if the pitcher is not prepared, then it could be disasterous, not immediately but maybe in the future.

Keep in mind it is all accumulative. We were very careful in what we did and when we did it. In a year round environment, he didn't play year round. Junior summer was preparation for WWBA wood bat in jupiter in october, a camp in december, and a showcase in Jan, everything else he was invited to, although tempting was a no. He had to be healthy for junior HS year and senior summer. Because son verballed in sept of senior year, he stopped playing senior fall, except for WWBA again in jupiter and that was it, done finished until senior year. Son has had some setbacks, all pitchers do but nothing that has been serious enough to warrant looking back and wondering where we went wrong. These were biological things that just got in the way.

The whole thing takes planning. I am wondering if showcase/camp companies ever send tips as to how to properly prepare for showcases and camps because I feel that many folks or players have no clue (as seen by the questions often asked here). A perfect example "if my son plays football but wants to go pitch at a showcase and not prepared is that ok". Of course it is not ok! If he is playing football, when does he have time to prepare his arm?

My suggestion, if you have indicated your pitcher is shut down and they (showcase people, scouts, camps) keep calling, then do they really care about your son or your money? Be honest and be smart.

JMO

Thanks for all the responses, if gives me a lot to think about.

My mistake, when they had success in HS, that open doors for good summer teams which open doors for other coaches to want to take you to showcases and tourney's in the fall that open doors for college invites, and in this process I really was not thinking about what we were doing.

Thankfully no one was injured this year due to pitching, but I think they are a little burned out.

I think we need to sit down and make a priority list, High school ball, travel ball, showcase events, camps, college visits, rest, conditioning, number of starts, innings etc....

Then get out a calendar, and make a game plan for the year, taking into account what's most important to them and what is not.

And no matter who calls, no matter who wants us to "play just this one tourney" or "pitch just this one game" we stick to the plan.

Hopefully our plan will be the right plan for furthing their baseball career, but at the very least a plan that will limit the chance of injury.


Then after the year is over, look back and see what worked , what didn't and adjust the plan

quote:

Why do you suppose they have Winter League Baseball? Obviously all the medical experts would not recommend that,

Those medical experts also recognize that a 15 year old is quite different than a 22 year old.

quote:

I believe your field of expertise is conditioning and I respect that. We know that Doc Andrews field of expertise is medicine/surgery.

My expertise lies in sports medicine. Specifically I am studying pediatric sports medicine. My goal is prevention of injury and proper assessment, treatment, and rehabilitation of injury.

You know, we often see pitchers and coaches testing the limit. I've talked to pitchers about it. Told them they need to understand when the time comes they are playing with fire. Parents need to understand because the young athlete wants to compete.

We had Dylan Bundy in our All American Game that was televised nationally. We really wanted him to pitch, he begged us to pitch in the game, but we did not allow him to pitch. He had just finished throwing a game a couple days earlier in the Connie Mack World Series. His future was more important to us. He wasn't concerned, wanted to pitch. Everyone wanted him to pitch other than us.

I've seen my share of injuries. I've seen what causes them in some cases. I can honestly state that my opinion is that showcase events are less dangerous than all other forms of pitching. The only time a showcase is the reason is when the pitcher is not ready/prepared to pitch.

Bulldog, I'm sure you are very good at what you do. At some point I wish someone would research our data on pitchers. It includes both those injured and healthy. I think that information would be very valuable in determining the true danger involving showcases. We have most of the nation's top pitchers every year. Last thing I want is to see them blow their arms out at our event. That is a quick way to get famous and if that is what happened, everyone would already know about it.

The most challenging showcase Bum, Jr. did was the World Showcase in January, 2008. All he had to do is tweak his bullpens a bit to accomodate.

It is not about the calendar month. As TPM says, it is the cummulative effect.

Just use common sense.

I don't see the question as whether showcases are dangerous, but rather does pitching 12 (or 24) consecutive months as a teenager lead to problems?

High school practice starts March 1 in our neck of the woods. You play until the end of May. How many week ahead of that does as pitcher start throwing? As a catcher my son starts no later than Jan 1, probably sooner. Showcases and summer ball start the first of June. College camps start in August and continue through December. Showcase continue into January. Around here fall ball games start Labor Day and continue into November.

No one event can be blamed, bit it does leave parents and players with some tough decisions, especially during the junior and senior years. I would really think twice about winter showcases as a junior. As a senior you may be feeling different pressures so the cost/benefit analysis is a bit different.

quote:

Do you feel it is best to shut a pitcher down completely say from Nov to Feb?
Do you shutdown during this time period except for conditioning?
Do you shutdown during this period except for showcases?
Do you not shutdown at all and just slow down?
Do you shutdown completely?

I think you'll find everybody has a different solution to getting in rest and starting back up. I'm the father of three pitchers. We've always shut it down in the mid-Fall (Oct 15-Dec 15) or thereabouts. When my kids were in high school, they'd start playing catch in early December but don't get on a mound until January. We begin a long toss program in December. I can't say it would work for everyone, but it has worked for us. Right now they are shutdown but chomping at the bit to start throwing especially with the nice weather we've been having. My oldest is in college, so his program is very much like JH's program. They do stop throwing but never stop training or conditioning.

Nobody understands the difficulty and temptation to throw at winter showcases or events more than I do. We stayed clear of it. My oldest son (now college pitcher) wouldn't even consider playing winter showcases for recruitment purposes. We did see some friends and acquantances get hurt due to overuse or not taking a rest during the year. For us, it wasn't worth the risk. We've seen that if you get hurt, it can set you back a lot further than you think.

PGSTAFF said,

quote:

We had Dylan Bundy in our All American Game that was televised nationally. We really wanted him to pitch, he begged us to pitch in the game, but we did not allow him to pitch. He had just finished throwing a game a couple days earlier in the Connie Mack World Series. His future was more important to us. He wasn't concerned, wanted to pitch. Everyone wanted him to pitch other than us.

Dylan Bundy was Baseball America's High School Player of the Year, a first round draft pick at 4th overall, Baltimore's #1 prospect and a dominating pitcher with a work ethic that boggles the mind.

Is PerfectGame more concerned about the future of participants than they are about their own future as a showcase business? I am not aware of any general practice that a showcase business surveys all its participants for their activity/participation prior to attending a showcase.

If William Smith was attending the Northeast Regional in Massachusetts, no one at PerfectGame would know when he pitched in a competitive format last or if he even attended a showcase or college camp the previous day. Unless he brought it to the attention of someone and he wouldn't do that because he's there to garner attention. You can't do that without getting on the mound and getting evaluated.

Obviously, PerfectGame has a financial interest in minimizing high profile participants chances of being injured at their events. After all Bundy signed for about 4 million I believe. But if Smith had thrown a game a couple days earlier in his high school division championship, he wouldn't have been stopped from participating in the NE Regional. Which begs the question....why?

And the answer would be....because showcases are saturating the landscape for baseball players. The top prospects are looked after rather nicely but the rest provide for the profit margin. I'm not saying there is anything morally, ethically or business like wrong with it....I'm just saying that it is this way. The pressure to perform causes these kids to do it when they are fatigued and that is what exposes them to injury. And no one but the kid and maybe his father or mother knows if he is fatigued or not. And changing that would require one showcase business to reduce their participant pool. Now PerfectGame may be in a position to consider this but there are showcase competitors that could care less about a participant's physical condition when they get there. They have already gotten their money. However, no one wants to see a kid injure himself. They are hoping to get him back to a second or third event.

As to whether or not anyone has ever been injured as a result of participating in a showcase....well it would be a rather difficult burden of proof on the player to connect a specific pitching performance to a specific injury even if a traumatic event occurred while throwing a pitch at an event. Because the injury is cumulative. There is also the matter of releasing the event sponsor from liability to law suit. And you would have to prove some kind of knowledge on the part of the sponsor that showed negligence. Like if my name were Dylan Bundy expected to possibly be drafted #1 overall and pitched a game at the Connie Mack World Series just days before. An injury at that time would be really bad for business.

I am more concerned about "win at all cost" high school and college coaches than I am showcases.When my son was the ace in high school, he and I determined when he would be ready to pitch. HE then told the coach. Four years of that and the coach never had a clue that my son and I knew best and in a way made the call.
I worked with my son all year round and was not going to let a coach overuse him.I knew him better and had his best interests in mind. Obviously, this would not work at the college level.

PADino,
We expect every pitcher to be healthy and prepared to pitch when they attend a showcase. If we know they shouldn't be on the mound, they don't pitch. We have credited many in the past rather than allow them to pitch. Most often the player or his parents inform us ahead of time. This usually happens in the early summer when a pitcher will have appeared in a game just before the scheduled showcase.

It's true that we can't always know the status of every pitcher. This is where parents need to be involved. BTW, Dylan Bundy, did many things pitching in high school that scouts questioned regarding innings pitched and very short recovery time.

I have seen more cases of over doing it in HS than elsewhere. We also see some of it in summer baseball.

Bottom line... If a pitcher is not prepared to pitch, he shouldn't be pitching. Who is responsible for making sure it works that way? The desire to win sometimes create stupid decisions by coaches, players, and parents. Winning is the main reason for injuries to pitchers. IMO

re shutting dow you need to differentiate between pitching and throwing

quote:

Bottom line... If a pitcher is not prepared to pitch, he shouldn't be pitching. Who is responsible for making sure it works that way? The desire to win sometimes create stupid decisions by coaches, players, and parents. Winning is the main reason for injuries to pitchers. IMO

Well said.

If I could go back to the original post. The last question says it all?

quote:

It seems with spring ball, summer ball, fall ball , showcases, visiting schools camps when do you rest?

The hardest word to learn to say is ......No!

Lucas Giolito had TJ surgery this year. He did attend a couple PG showcases. I would consider him one of the "least" abused pitchers ever. He just didn't throw much compared to other HS pitchers. He would fall in the showcase attendee category. I think he threw about 6 innings in three years at those events.

His father and advisor were extra careful. Despite being injured before the draft, he was selected in the first round last year and paid as though he was one of the first few picks. His professional career will start at some point next year.

If you pitch, you're likely to get injured. The better you are the better you're chance of suffering an injury. The better you are the more likely you have attended multiple showcases. So I can understand why the research involving those having surgery would show multiple showcases. More comprehensive research would show what happened when you include all showcase pitchers, both injured and not injured. And let's don't blame the radar gun. Many of these top pitchers see radar guns at their games. So is it the two or three innings pitched at a showcase with radar guns or the hundred+ innings pitching in front of radar guns at games? Are all those innings or high pitch counts that important? Is any youth game worth it? Why are pitchers throwing over a hundred pitches on one day and pitching in relief the next day? The answer is sometimes winning a game becomes more important than an individual's future. The many good coaches out there know this happens. Not because they allow it to happen with their pitcher, but because they have seen it first hand.

It's very obvious that over all kids are throwing harder than they did in the past. Our data can prove that without a doubt. More kids having that talent, equals more good pitching prospects which equals more injuries. I also believe some of the cookie cutter mechanics being taught can cause problems. So much of what comes naturally gets converted to mechanical type deliveries. Bob Feller threw the way his body told him to throw. Today they would likely change Feller's delivery.

I'm not against people claiming most, not all, injuries to pitchers is cumulative. That includes everything including showcases and travel baseball. And it includes every time a pitcher throws a pitch no matter where that pitch is thrown.

I see showcase pitching as very safe. You have plenty of time to prepare, you throw a set number of pitches and there is no onus on winning. There is no such thing as a 'tight jam'... there's no pressure to beat the team that crushed you in football and you want payback so bad... you don't have to worry about the baserunners much; if your showcase catcher can't throw out the trash, what do you care? You are there to show 4 pitches and if you are projectable, they will call you if not... life goes on.

Abuse occurs when winning is placed above health. The arm abuse that goes on in several HS and college baseball programs is nuts...

Showcase guys don't need to brag about holding pitch counts down either.... get real, you aren't trying to win; you count heads and you know how much you won by that day.

one reason we do not do bull pensessions in our events is because the kids overthrow to impress the guns and this leads to arm injuries

Without question, you as a parent have to be able to balance out what you allow you kid and/or player to do. As a coach and parent of a kid that was accepted to throw at a PG event this coming Feb. I have to weigh out +/- of doing such an event. Without question these kids need to have the ball out of their hands for 8-12 weeks IMO. My kid is now shut down until Jan 10th (10 weeks) from picking up a baseball. My wife works with one of the top Orthopedic Groups in the mid-west and she see's more than a few 15-18 year olds this time of year that come in with arm injuries from over-use. As a coach I have witnessed the ignorance of high pitch counts, little rest between starts (etc), you all have heard the stories.....

Doing showcase events is not a one size fits all situation for a kid and the parent/coach needs to be realistic and knowledgeable in there approach. Unfortunatly both parents/coaches are seldom educated with respect to both aspects of what I mentioned above until sometimes it's too late. I do understand a perception that S-case is nothing more than a money grab and there is truth to that at times. Again, you have to be realistic, do your homework and protect you kid from himself as needed.

we need to revert to old times when kids threw and played catch every day----that does not happen today

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
PADino,
We expect every pitcher to be healthy and prepared to pitch when they attend a showcase. If we know they shouldn't be on the mound, they don't pitch. We have credited many in the past rather than allow them to pitch. Most often the player or his parents inform us ahead of time. This usually happens in the early summer when a pitcher will have appeared in a game just before the scheduled showcase.

It's true that we can't always know the status of every pitcher. This is where parents need to be involved. BTW, Dylan Bundy, did many things pitching in high school that scouts questioned regarding innings pitched and very short recovery time.

I have seen more cases of over doing it in HS than elsewhere. We also see some of it in summer baseball.

Bottom line... If a pitcher is not prepared to pitch, he shouldn't be pitching. Who is responsible for making sure it works that way? The desire to win sometimes create stupid decisions by coaches, players, and parents. Winning is the main reason for injuries to pitchers. IMO

PGStaff,

I was hesitant to jump on this thread and I realize that the above response was directed to PADino. I have tremendous respect for you and everything that you do to help others on this site. I'm also a strong proponent of Perfect Game, and believe that PG helped to get my son on the recruiting map a few years back. With that said, the staff at my son's first PG Showcase DID NOT follow through with my request to limit KD's pitching to five batters (one inning). He had thrown in a HS scrimmage a couple days prior to the showcase and complained of soreness. I informed one of the showcase directors of his soreness, who ironically was one of his travelball coaches that had/has a relationship with PG, and he stated that they would definitely limit him. He went through the INF/OF workout with no pain, pitched his inning (5 batters) quickly with a limited amount of pitches and did so with no pain. The following showcase day he was asked to pitch again. Apparently a PG staff member that was not in attendance on Saturday wanted to see him pitch on Sunday. Nobody spoke with me, and of course a 16 year old kid is not going to say no. He pitched to the five batters that Sunday afternoon, and didn't pitch again for nearly ten months.

Who was to blame? I take the majority of the responsibility as his parent, BUT some of that responsibility falls on the directors from PG that weekend in 2009 that were informed of my desire to limit his pitching and they failed to do so. Who knows? Perhaps there was a lack of communication on Sunday? I do know that a sprained UCL was diagnosed a few weeks after that showcase and as I stated above he didn't pitch for almost a year. He likely should have underwent TJ Surgery back then according to his Doc? Unfortunately it came back to bite him again this summer, and today my son is four months post-op from TJ surgery.

If you're a player, listen to your body. If you're a parent, look at the long term affects & don't push your son or daughter...and yes, that goes for coaches too. By No Means did I post this to dis-credit Perfectgame & PGStaff (I respect PG), I just wanted to state that Communication is an important issue at every school/camp/showcase etc...

The good news is the surgery went well for my son, and this past Friday his Doc released him to begin his throwing program this week.

I'm very sorry to hear that. It actually makes me very mad. I'd really like to know the details... Who... Where ...when.

I know we make mistakes at times, but this is bigger than a mistake.

I'm certainly not blaming you or your son, but this sounds like a case where maybe he shouldn't have been there to begin with. But that does not condone the actions of our people. If it happened the way you describe that was very stupid on our part.

You are correct,communication is very important.

As I said in my post, I personally take the majority of the blame & responsibility. I won't divulge the who...where...when publicly, but I will send you a PM.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
one reason we do not do bull pensessions in our events is because the kids overthrow to impress the guns and this leads to arm injuries

Curious, how does the pitcher prepare? You just let him take the mound and give him warm up pitches?

tpm---who u addressing

I am asking you if you do not have the pitchers throw a bull pen before they take the mound, how do they get ready for their outing?

Back in the day when men were men no bullpens were needed, no warmups, they threw 365 days a year (without ice).

Fact is back in the day arms were rested because you were more likely to play multi sports and not specialize.

For me if you don't plan some down time from throwing during off season, you're taking your chances.

This has been a good topic, especially for those folks reading whose sons are just beginning recruiting.

One thing that I suggest (strongly), educate yourself on what to expect at a camp or showcase. Don't assume cheaper means better or expensive means better either. Take into consideration how many years that person or company running that camp or showcase has had experience. Personally I would never send son to any camp or showcase if he were not 100%, position player or pitcher. Attend with him if you are afraid he might not be used properly. Plan ahead so you do not run into a situation where he is shut down and has to get ready in a hurry. Make sure pitchers do not pitch on consecutive days and make sure pitchers get proper warm up before their outing. Keep in mind that it is natural that a pitcher will try to throw harder to the gun, but if he is prepared it won't matter, but keep in mind that most pitchers who show up after being shut down are not at peak velocity. This means it is up to you to have a discussion, if you feel he's not ready for the experience, wait until he is.

Most importantly, remember, it is YOUR son and no one cares more for him that you, not the college coach at camp, not the showcase promoter, not the scout and not the HS or travel coach. It's not that they don't care, but it is just that YOU should care more.