Pitching Sequence

I think one of the best counts to throw an offspeed pitch is 2-0 or 2-1. Good hitters sit on a fastball in that count and it is a common home run count because of it. Very few can adjust to a good changeup in those counts.

Learned this from one of the best college pitching coaches ever (now retired).

What do you think about never starting off a hitter with a fastball and only throwinf offspeed on a 3-2 count. No matter what.

I think its a big mistake. Any sure-thing predictability is a bad thing in pitch sequence. Opposing players/coaches DO pick up on that. Also throwing the same pitch/location on 0-0, 0-2 and 1-2 are the easiest sequences for a coach to pick up on.

I'm also a believer in establishing your fastball early in the game. Establish that you have a good one and that you can move it around (good command). Thats the pitch to learn to locate IMO.

I Agree with justbaseball. If continued sequences and pitches are thrown in a certain count, i know, personally as a hitter, that I would sit on whatever I know is coming. If I know an offspeed pitch is coming on 0-0, I am sitting on that. Same with the location. If it is 1-2 and it has to be a pitch that is not a strike, I dont take the bat of my shoulder.

Another thing about this-I am NOT a believer in if the count, especially 1-2, in throwing another ball. I believe in challenging the hitters. Make them hit the ball! You have 8 guys behind you playing defense. Even 0-2, there are many times, I (Im a pitcher), go right after the hitter. Jam him hard inside and low with a fastball. Or throw a curve/change on the outside corner. CHALLENGE THE HITTER! Make him hit the ball.

All his sequences, IMO, do is run up pitch counts. If you have 0-2 and you throw a fastball up and inside for a ball, thats 3 pitches. Based on ur sequence, then he throws an offspeed in the dirt. Thats 2-2, and 4 pitches thrown. Take this farther, now the hitter is sitting on a fastball at 2-2, based on ur sequence.

That is at least 5 pitches. I tell you what, IMO if I were an opposing coach, I am telling my hitters to take pitch after pitch. Wear your guy out. What your son is showing is that he is afraid to challenge hitters (not saying he is. Thats just the impression he gives). I am telling my hitters, that even if they are down 0-2, dont get worried, because there are at least 3 more pitches coming, because the next two are going to be balls.

If you figure, minimum, he throws 5 pitches per batter. As a 15 year old, I am hoping he is on a pretty good pitch count. Therefore, he will face about 13-17 batters before he will have to be pulled due to pitch count.

I am a firm believer in 3 pitches or less per batter. JMO.

Thanks/.

First and foremost you have to know what pitch or pitches the pitcher can throw when he HAS to have a strike.

Usually that is just one pitch at the high school level. Hopefully it is more, but rare if it is. Notice I said when he HAS to have a strike. Not when he would like a strike.

Based on that you can develop sequences for hitters and their weaknesses.

If what you are saying is true, that your son can dominate with the fastball, your coach is either an idiot or he's trying to help your son develop his other pitches.

Great advice....I agree with establishing a fastball and using the other pitches to keep a hitter off balance. I also believe in staying ahead of the hitters and making them hit your pitch.In my son's case would be the fastball since he is most accurate with that pitch. I've tried to instill this in my son sinch little league. Of course the coach is enforcing his pitch sequence ethics on all the pitchers on the team. I guess that's why they are 2 and 6. Is there any way to convince the coach to do otherwise? Or should we just ride out the season and hope the next coach has more sense?

quote:

Originally posted by Geff:
Is there any way to convince the coach to do otherwise? Or should we just ride out the season and hope the next coach has more sense?

Its going to depend on what kind of coach/person he is. I've seen some who are open to reasonable discussion...others who are not. Most likely, based on your description, he will not be very open to a conversation about this...but you would know better.

Most of the time a pitcher that age with a decent fastball should be throwing a fastball on the first pitch. With a dangerous hitter at the plate he might want to work a tough to hit location or go offspeed. Generally speaking he'll get a lot of pitches taken for strikes if he throws strikes on the first pitch and he'll give up some hits and get some first pitch outs, and first pitch foul balls or misses. All in all, throwing first pitch fastballs for strikes will work well and keep his pitch count low.

I've got to believe that your son's team walks more than their share of batters using that approach.

A well spotted fastball is still the best pitch in the game.

MT07LHP

I am with you.

Most HS pitchers have a fastball that is upper 70's lower 80's with a curveball or change that is usually just adequate.

Location and movememnt are key for a HS pitcher regardless of speed

Baseballplayer1988

I like your style-- go right at em !-- 0-2 you can still throw a strike on the inside of the plate and make the batter earn his way on

By the way Teacherman you have rizzo spelled backwards and you moved--when did that happen?

The quality of the hitter and the quality of the pitcher will dictate how we pitch a hitter. The game situation and what the batter showed us his last ab will also dictate alot of what we do.

As a general rule lets say we have no book on the hitter. Lets say we are just starting the game and its the lead off man.

There are two ways to approach this. #1 We start him out with a FB trying to hit the black low and away for a strike. #2 We start him out with a cb for a strike knowing that most leadoff men are not going to swing first pitch cb even when its a strike. In #1 scenario we are not trying to send any message to the opposing team. We are just focusing on the batter and trying to get ahead and get an out. In #2 scenario we are trying to send the message to the other team that we are not going to throw first pitch fb and let them sit on it. We are willing to start them out and get ahead with the off speed. The key is having a pitcher that can get ahead with first pitch off speed.

I personally like to pitch in reverse early in the game to the better hitters. But in order to do this your pitcher must have command of more than just a fb. I do believe also like the other posters that the best pitch in baseball is a good located fb. Everything else can work off of that. Against agressive teams that look to mash first pitch fb it is important to be able to throw off speed for strikes first pitch and locate the fast ball. Alot of coaches have different theories on how to pitch hitters. But the bottom line is that if the pitcher can not execute his pitches it doesnt matter one bit what your game plan is. And if he can locate his pitches that is the game plan in itself.

Against most HS teams you can just go right at them and locate the fastball and mix in some change ups and cbs. Against showcase teams where 1-9 can hit and hit very well you have to keep them off stride by not getting into a rhythem. In 2-0 counts against avg hs teams yes fb for a strike and play defense. Against showcase type teams you will pay dearly for the most part. I would prefer the change up where the batter is looking fb and gets caught sitting dead red and is out in front. Again the quality of the pitcher and the quality of the hitters will dictate how we pitch batters and the game situation. The higher levels you play the more important it is that you work ahead in the count and not get behind where you have to give in. JMO

Coach May,
Really, really good post.

Agree100%....and never, ever throw a strike 0-2!

I think the pitcher also needs to know the hitters thinking and the philosphy of the opposing coach

I feel that I have great advantage because my son was a hitter as was I and my stepson is a pitcher--I have the best of both worlds in terms of "baseball thinking".

Geff,

Your son's coach is attempting to "pitch backwards" or as Coach May described it, "reverse." We pitch backwards as well. However, regardless of how you want to pitch, the fastball is the key to everything. We had a kid this year go 10-3. He was told that his fastball wasn't exception and so, he needed to know how to throw that pitch. Now, we didn't mean that he can't get hitters out with it. We told him that he isn't going to stand up there and strike players out with the fastball but it is critical to locate and then he can generate groundball outs etc.

Pitching backwards = off speed to 3,4,5, sometimes 6 on first pitch. It is good to do this is you know that the other team has been coached to sit on a first pitch fastball. YOU CAN NOT APPROACH ALL OF THESE PLAYERS WITH AN OFFSPEED PITCH EVERY AT BAT. YOU'LL GET KILLED. WE CHOSE AT LEAST ONE AT BAT WHERE WE THROW THE FIRST PITCH UP AND IN TO KEEP THE BATTER ON HIS TOES.

Pitching backwards also means that when you know that the hitters is looking dead red, you throw change. To us, pitching backwards is taking "good offensive baseball theory" and using it against the hitter.

As far as your son throwing a large number of curves, we are leary of that. Now most posters will disagree with me but our pitchers throw 4 pitches. Most believe a high school kid can only throw 3 and be successful. You son is learning a valuable tool to being successful. However, there are flaws if the coach believes as you have posted. JMHO!

Any set pattern will get a pitcher in trouble as he gets older.

And your coach's philosophy also fails to take into account the individual batter.

Is the batter too close to the plate? Bust him inside with a fastball. Then perhaps follow with something outside.

Too far off the plate? Work the outside corner until he moves up on the plate. Then bust him inside with a two seamer.

Batter looks nervous? Inside heat to remind him he is timid (Don Drysdale: “The pitcher has to find out if the hitter is timid. And if the hitter is timid, he has to remind the hitter he's timid.”). Then perhaps work him away.

Does the batter hit with a closed stance, or start open & swing his front foot closed (e.g., past neutral)? Again, work him inside, perhaps with a fastball angled in on his hands.

Does the batter use an open stance? Work him away, he won't be able to do anything with it.

An uppercut swinger? Pitch him up & in.

Has he chased a high pitch? Give him another on the inside, about 2-3" above the top of the zone. He will chase it all day long, but he won't be able to do anything with it.

A really hard swinger? How about a first pitch changeup to throw him off balance.

Behind on his swing? Stay with the heat, but change grips and location.

Ahead on his swing? Changeup time. Then mix it up.

Read the individual batter. Determine his tendencies, weaknesses & strengths.

The pitcher must never become predictable. On any count. He needs to be confident throwing a changeup on the first pitch or on a full count.

0-2? For sure nothing sweet, but maybe not a waste pitch either. For some batters, the changeup or curve makes sense. For others, the inside fastball about 2-3" above the top of the zone will be impossible for them to lay off. Could be a fastball on the outside corner.

Keep batters off balance.

And I agree with the poster who talked about being aggressive and keeping pitch counts down. From the greats-
Sandy Koufax: "The only time I really try for a strikeout is when I'm in a jam. If the bases are loaded with none out, for example, then I'll go for a strikeout. But most of the time I try to throw to spots. I try to get them to pop up or ground out. On a strikeout I might have to throw five or six pitches, sometimes more if there are foul-offs. That tires me. So I just try to get outs. That's what counts - outs. You win with outs, not strikeouts."
Koufax again: "I became a good pitcher when I stopped trying to make them miss the ball and started trying to make them hit it."
Tom Seaver: “My job isn't to strike guys out, it’s to get them out, sometimes by striking them out."

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

...Is the batter too close to the plate? Bust him inside with a fastball. Then perhaps follow with something outside.

Really??? Could it be he's close to the plate because he loves the ball inside?????

quote:

Too far off the plate? Work the outside corner until he moves up on the plate. Then bust him inside with a two seamer.

Really??? Could it be he's off the plate because he loves the ball away?????

If i see a batter standing away from the plate then i try to jam him inside, because USALLY it means he likes to extand his swing and if you can throw a hard inside pitch he done for.

Just my .02

quote:

Originally posted by ozzir:

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

...Is the batter too close to the plate? Bust him inside with a fastball. Then perhaps follow with something outside.

Really??? Could it be he's close to the plate because he loves the ball inside?????

quote:

Too far off the plate? Work the outside corner until he moves up on the plate. Then bust him inside with a two seamer.

Really??? Could it be he's off the plate because he loves the ball away?????

Depends on the degree. If a batter is truly hanging his toes on the plate, a good two seam (assuming RHP & RH batter) on the inside may bring an impressive foul, but that is all. Favoring the inside but not "hanging the toes", your point is well taken. And the open stance (e.g., stays open from initial stance to swing) can't do much with the outside pitch unless he is either on top of the plate or swinging a 36" bat.

And yes, there are exceptions to everything. That should go without saying...

This discussion is about more than pitch sequences; it has also become a dialogue about pitching to hitter's weaknesses.

I believe that it is much more important for a pitcher to pitch to his own strengths than to pitch to a hitter's weaknesses.

Pitchers should make the hitters adjust to them. The pitcher should be the one with the control of the entire situation.

I am not saying that we shouldn't recognize a hitter's weaknesses and take advantage of them, because a pitcher certainly should do that. But, if I have a good pitcher I am going to make sure that he uses his own strengths to his advantage.

Pitch sequences are also important, but hopefully they do not become too predictable.

I new a kid that was on this weighted ball program. Well he gained a few MPH but he has no control and can't learn a good off speed pitch with location. I'm with you guys. It's more about hitting spots abd changing speed no matter how fast or slow. Screw up the hitters timing is where it's at. Not to mention learning how to pitch!