Looking for any good articles (or threads) that contain good strategies for pitching.... something for me and my pitchers to read over the break.
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If you have not already read it, my recommendation would be the book MEN AT WORK by George Will. It's an oldie but goodie. If you have not read it, there are four parts. One part is about managing with Tony LaRussa, another is about defense with Cal Ripken, another is about hitting with Tony Gwynn, and another is the pitching part with Orel Hershiser. Great "game within the game" stuff.
Not sure about articles.
BaseballByTheYard.com
Not sure about articles.
BaseballByTheYard.com
Hi,
Stumbled across the following site. It has some articles from House and Jaeger that I think may address pitching strategies.
http://www.baseballresource.com/articles/
Another good site is www.insidepitching.com. I don't think it is currently active, but you can search the archived articles.
Hope this helps.
Stumbled across the following site. It has some articles from House and Jaeger that I think may address pitching strategies.
http://www.baseballresource.com/articles/
Another good site is www.insidepitching.com. I don't think it is currently active, but you can search the archived articles.
Hope this helps.
trojan-skipper,
Are you a HS coach? If so, what level, i.e. Fr, JV, V.
Are you a HS coach? If so, what level, i.e. Fr, JV, V.
high School varsity
quote:Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
high School varsity
KOOL. Do you or some other coach call pitches, or do you leave that to the battery? The reason I ask is, if the battery doesn’t have the responsibility and freedom to call pitches and locations, what difference does it make if they understand pitching strategies.
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
KOOL. Do you or some other coach call pitches, or do you leave that to the battery? The reason I ask is, if the battery doesn’t have the responsibility and freedom to call pitches and locations, what difference does it make if they understand pitching strategies.
I don’t see how that is relevant. Wouldn’t you want to provide your pitchers with information and educate on them strategies of the game regardless of coaching style? I mean, I kind of see where you are coming from…
I've found that kids understanding the "why" is equally important to the "how."
I explain to kids why we hit and run when we do, why we delay steal, pitch out, bunt, etc. even though they don't get a vote about when it happens. Building their understanding of the game and our philosophies help tremendously to them buying in to what we do, as well as makes them a more savvy baseball player. And don't kid yourself about how important buying in is for HS kids these days.
I explain to kids why we hit and run when we do, why we delay steal, pitch out, bunt, etc. even though they don't get a vote about when it happens. Building their understanding of the game and our philosophies help tremendously to them buying in to what we do, as well as makes them a more savvy baseball player. And don't kid yourself about how important buying in is for HS kids these days.
What it boils down to is, how much value there is to having pitchers understand why they’re being told to do what they’re being told to do, vs. being given the freedom to make that decision for themselves. Granted a pitcher “buying” into the plan SHOULD produce more confident execution, but I wonder how that compares to the pitcher and catcher being taught what the plan is trying to do and then allowing them to try to accomplish it on their own.
To me there’s far too much depending on the coach’s “sales pitch”. If he’s a good salesman and has normal players, chances are there will be success. But what happens if he isn’t a good salesman or he doesn’t have normal players? I understand the process as it mostly exists today, but I don’t happen to agree with it. I’d rather see the players be given the knowledge and let them do with it what they may.
To me there’s far too much depending on the coach’s “sales pitch”. If he’s a good salesman and has normal players, chances are there will be success. But what happens if he isn’t a good salesman or he doesn’t have normal players? I understand the process as it mostly exists today, but I don’t happen to agree with it. I’d rather see the players be given the knowledge and let them do with it what they may.
Come coach high school baseball for a little while before forming that opinion. While I respect what you're saying, until you have been in this position it's hard to consider you're opinion truly informed.
Right after I teach a QB how to call plays himself, I'll start working with the P/C on doing the same.
While I don't agree with giving the kids free run I think you are short changing kids if you don't teach them how to think for themselves and then give them a chance to do it. The point of the game is to play it and why a coach wants to micromanage everything by choice I will never understand. Don't get me wrong I've had my fair share of kids who just never understood the game and I made the calls for them. I had a catcher once who was a stud but let's just say wasn't the brightest. He couldn't even take a bunt coverage sign from me and relay it to the IF. So I started going through the first baseman for signs because of this. Then I got smart and taught my kids in "this" situation we want to do "this" so now we didn't need a sign.
All your kids may not be able to grasp it but give them a chance.
All your kids may not be able to grasp it but give them a chance.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
…All your kids may not be able to grasp it but give them a chance.
That’s the sum and substance of it. I really do “get it”, but casting a blanket over all players sure seems like selling short at least some of them who could handle the task very well.
Serious question....should FB Coaches let their QB coaches call plays?
What is the difference?
What is the difference?
quote:Originally posted by bsballfan:
Serious question....should FB Coaches let their QB coaches call plays?
What is the difference?
Honestly the two aren't comparable. In football you have to account for 11 total people in order to know what to run and what adjustments to make based on what they do to stop you. That's hard for professional coaches to do let alone a high school kid. For the past three years I've been the offensive coordinator for our football team. This past season I was actually able to get up in the box to call plays and it was such a huge difference in being able to call plays seeing where all 11 players were.
That being said yes I've allowed my quarterbacks to call plays at the line of scrimmage on audibles. I would spend the week and go over what defenses they were going to run, blitzes, where coming from and all kinds of other things that they were going to do to stop us. I would teach all our guys (not just quarterback) how to identify areas we could attack on an audible if a certain defense was going to stop the play I called. So I would call a play and they come to the LOS and see it wouldn't work. QB starts yelling "check, check" and call a play to an open area. The vast majority of time they would call the correct play to an open area. If the play didn't work it was because someone didn't carry out their assignment - not from a bad play call. Yeah there were some bad calls but not very many.
The offense we ran this year put a ton of responsibility on the QB to make decisions during the play. We ran a zone read spread offense where we would leave a certain player on the defensive line untouched. Then our QB would read his action and either give the running back the ball or keep the ball for himself. All this took place in the span of about 2 seconds at most. If we were running the ball to the left we would leave the defensive end on the right untouched. If the DE came up the field the QB would hand the ball to the RB to the left. If the DE worked down the LOS to try and take the RB then the QB pulled the ball and keep the ball to attack the space the DE left. Lot of player responsibility to recognize this very quickly. Honestly our QB wasn't very good at it and it became frustrating because he wouldn't pull the ball and keep it. We finally put a call in to specifically make him keep it based on what I saw up top. He was a stud athlete when he had the ball but he just wasn't comfortable in his decisions. Next years QB is a good athlete but not the same calibur. The thing is he makes better decisions on to keep or pull so we won't have that signal to tell him to keep it.
All I'm saying is if you can teach a high school kid to call plays, call audibles, read / react based on what defensive players do and read secondary coverages to know where to throw the ball then you can teach them when to throw a fastball versus a curve ball. It won't always be successful because there are some kids who won't grasp it mentally so you have to think for them but give the kid a chance first.
Teach the game and let the kids play it. Games are the time for players to shine and practices are the time for coaches to shine.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
...All I'm saying is if you can teach a high school kid to call plays, call audibles, read / react based on what defensive players do and read secondary coverages to know where to throw the ball then you can teach them when to throw a fastball versus a curve ball.
Coach, I enjoyed your football analogy but, as you know, there is a heck of a lot more to consider when calling pitches than "fastball vs curve ball"...
Good pitch sequencing, each hitter's past tendancies, pitcher's strengths historically, today, spotting holes in swings, baserunning situation, game situation, opposing coach offensive tendancies, pitcher's ability to climb the ladder, pitcher's confidence in catcher blocking breaking balls in the dirt, what HP ump is giving, recognizing hitter's timing vs pitcher's stuff, overall game strategy based on opposition (i.e. - high % FB's first time thru lineup), disguising patterns, is hitter crowding/well off the plate, is hitter open/closed, who needs to be pitched backwards/when can you not afford to, who do you pitch around/when can you not, significant field factors (short LF porch), weather factors (wind blowing hard in or out), etc., etc. This is on top of the many other responsibilities of the catcher.
Collectively, this can be a lot for a HS catcher to grasp.
With all these things considered, I believe there IS a good comparison to an offensive(or defensive) coordinator calling plays in a FB game. The coach has an overall game strategy that he impliments against the opposition and he makes adjustments during the game based on the response and counter-adjustments of the opposition. The players execute, knowing their responsibilities based on the play or defensive alignment called. Occasionally, the QB/cather/pitcher will call an audible if he recognizes a particular counter-adjustment.
quote:It won't always be successful because there are some kids who won't grasp it mentally so you have to think for them but give the kid a chance first.
Teach the game and let the kids play it...
As I stated in the other related thread, I see both sides of this argument. I agree you give them a chance, starting with letting them call some summer/fall games and scrimmages. And coaches should always be teaching them and talking about pitch calling strategies. At the HS level, some will be capable of calling a good game and many will not.
I think, in the course of a short season of regular games, a coach has to ask himself if he is putting the team in the best position to win with his decision.
All that said, I'm sure there are also scenarios where the catcher has a better mind for calling the game than any of the coaches
Reading Assignment
Strategy #1. Pitchers objectives is to get outs.
Strategy #2. Nice to miss bats
Strategy #3. Very nice to break bats.
Strategy #4. One pitch, one out.
They could get thru this over the break
Classic Carlin
Strategy #1. Pitchers objectives is to get outs.
Strategy #2. Nice to miss bats
Strategy #3. Very nice to break bats.
Strategy #4. One pitch, one out.
They could get thru this over the break
Classic Carlin
Scholastic baseball, HS baseball, is about the TEAM.
Whoever can help the TEAM the most should be calling the pitches. If it's the catcher, fine.
But the catcher's "development" is secondary.
1. Because most HS catchers will not play beyond HS. Their personal development as a catcher is irrelevant.
2. Because the needs of this TEAM, right now, this moment, are primary.
3. Because even if they're that rare player who advances to catch in college, they won't be calling their own game there either.
How about this: During the preseason, poll the entire TEAM (secret ballot): Who calls the pitches, catcher or coach?
What would be their answer?
Whoever can help the TEAM the most should be calling the pitches. If it's the catcher, fine.
But the catcher's "development" is secondary.
1. Because most HS catchers will not play beyond HS. Their personal development as a catcher is irrelevant.
2. Because the needs of this TEAM, right now, this moment, are primary.
3. Because even if they're that rare player who advances to catch in college, they won't be calling their own game there either.
How about this: During the preseason, poll the entire TEAM (secret ballot): Who calls the pitches, catcher or coach?
What would be their answer?
But, IMHO, when HS pitchers trust their catcher, and have that pitcher-catcher thing going between them, then the TEAM can benefit big-time by having the catcher calling the pitches regardless (in conjunction with the pitcher via shakeoffs).
quote:Originally posted by freddy77:
Scholastic baseball, HS baseball, is about the TEAM.
Whoever can help the TEAM the most should be calling the pitches. If it's the catcher, fine.
But the catcher's "development" is secondary.
1. Because most HS catchers will not play beyond HS. Their personal development as a catcher is irrelevant.
2. Because the needs of this TEAM, right now, this moment, are primary.
3. Because even if they're that rare player who advances to catch in college, they won't be calling their own game there either.
How about this: During the preseason, poll the entire TEAM (secret ballot): Who calls the pitches, catcher or coach?
What would be their answer?
I get what you're saying and overall agree with you but what if that catcher wants to become a coach? How does he then learn to call a game or teach calling a game to his players if nobody teaches and then gives him a chance to do it?
Varsity games is not the time nor place to develop and teach calling pitches. You have to do this through bullpen work, JV games and summer / fall games. If they haven't shown they have the ability to call a game by that point then they probably never will.
It is our job to teach everything we can to our kids about the game. Most of them will not be able to grasp everything and once they have shown they can't grasp something then you do the thinking for them. Not trying to be a jerk here but reading some of your posts I get the impression you're shortchanging your kids or you don't believe they are capable of doing something without giving them a chance.
cabbagedad you're 100% right that it's more complicated than just calling fastball vs. curve. The list of things you pointed out was awesome and right on. I didn't mean to make it sound that calling pitches, setting up hitters and all that was easy - it's not. The point I was trying to make is that all the things you said are of the same mental caliber of calling an offense. If we can get football kids to do all the things I said above then we can get kids to do everything you said about calling pitches. But this also ties back into what freddy was saying about how most kids aren't going to college and playing - but neither are most QBs.
How many kids have you had who knew the game but wasn't the greatest physically? Good enough to play but obviously not good enough to move on after graduation. Why can't we develop these kids into thinking for themselves?
Someone mentioned that they aren't going to call games in college either. Well I believe one reason is because kids are coming out of high school without that ability because we're not teaching it enough. Plus there is the other reason that their job is truly on the line if they don't win whereas most of us aren't in that position.
Look I'm not saying you guys are wrong because I've called pitches myself, my pitching coach has called pitches but I've also had catchers who have called pitches. In my opinion / personal experience the game goes better when the catcher calls it. Its not that I have super smart kids nor am I a great coach but it's something that can be taught if given a chance.
I always like when a catcher/pitcher call a game... I think it allows the pitcher to control the tempo of the game.....seen to many games when a pitcher can not pitch as fast as he wants due to the signs getting transferred in.....
Plus I firm believer that a pitch that a pitcher wants to throw has a better chance for better results than a pitch called by a coach that the pitcher may in back of mind might be wondering about throwing another pitch
Just my opinion ask my son and he may have a different opinion
Plus I firm believer that a pitch that a pitcher wants to throw has a better chance for better results than a pitch called by a coach that the pitcher may in back of mind might be wondering about throwing another pitch
Just my opinion ask my son and he may have a different opinion
we allow and want our catchers to work with the pitcher and call the game---- tjey have the best feel for what is happening
I've always thought a stat which would be interesting to see is a catcher's won/loss record as compared to the team WL(assuming more than one catcher, of course).
I've noticed a difference but haven't tracked the stat. Using the DH means the difference isn't necessarily offense, it is defensive. Calling pitches, control of the pace of the game, rapport with pitchers, better blocking, better percentage of CS...lots of potential factors.
I've noticed a difference but haven't tracked the stat. Using the DH means the difference isn't necessarily offense, it is defensive. Calling pitches, control of the pace of the game, rapport with pitchers, better blocking, better percentage of CS...lots of potential factors.
quote:Not trying to be a jerk here but reading some of your posts I get the impression you're shortchanging your kids or you don't believe they are capable of doing something without giving them a chance.
No offense taken, your posts on this topic are insightful.
I'm trying to keep it real. HS kids want to win (especially, the seniors)..this at-bat; this inning; this game. IMO, in a player-centered program, the focus should be to avoid short-changing them--the kids.
Assume for a moment that the 46 yo HSV coach is really good at calling pitches, and the 16 yo HSV catcher is acceptably good at calling pitches (he'll be really good when he's 46 yo), who should be calling pitches in the big games (which is every game in a 20-game season)??....considering that the difference between winning and losing can come down to one pitch, or sequence of pitches.
HS bb isn't showcase bb. It's TEAM bb. IMHO, the number one question should be, what helps this group of kids--for most of whom HS bb is the pinnacle and conclusion of their playing career-- optimize as a TEAM right NOW.
If, all things considered, having the catcher call will optimize the team, then the catcher should be calling.
(That being said, I always get a kick out of it when amateur catchers at any level are calling their own game.)
quote:Originally posted by freddy77:
… HS kids want to win (especially, the seniors)..this at-bat; this inning; this game.
From the way you say that, I get the impression you believe winning and the kids calling the game can’t and don’t go together.
quote:…Assume for a moment that the 46 yo HSV coach is really good at calling pitches, and the 16 yo HSV catcher is acceptably good at calling pitches (he'll be really good when he's 46 yo), who should be calling pitches in the big games (which is every game in a 20-game season)??....considering that the difference between winning and losing can come down to one pitch, or sequence of pitches. …
In reality, how much more chance of winning is there if the very best “pitch calling” coach is calling pitches rather than the pitcher just throwing whatever he wants, assuming the catcher would catch the ball?
I see your location is “north”, and assuming that to be true, I can see why you see a HS season as 20 games. Well, I don’t know how your schedule is set up, but ours is 15 league games and up to 15 other games, and the league games are the only games that determine who goes on to postseason play. So, at least in our case, and I assume many others are in similar situations, every game is not a “big game”.
From what I can see, our teams here play the non-league games early in the season, and thus use them to develop players, lineups, and pitchers so they’re as ready as can be come time to play the league games. Since those non-league games literally mean nothing but pride, why can’t they be used to develop the pitch calling skills of the pitchers and the catchers?
Do you really believe that all pitchers execute at 100%? My guess is, the top ML pitchers execute at maybe 80%+, while the best HS pitchers execute at maybe 70%+, and the “average” HS pitchers at maybe 50%+. If that’s even close to being true, what difference does it really make who’s calling pitches?
I respect your belief that one pitch or sequence of pitches might determine the outcome of a game, but I’ve found that most often something besides a pitch or sequence of pitches is the main cause for the outcome of a game. IMO a misplayed ball, a bad throw or throw to the wrong base, a fat pitch not swung at or missed, a runner not hustling and getting an extra base, the defense not positioned correctly, or any one of a million other things has just as much effect on the outcome of the game as any one pitch or sequence of pitches.
