Pitching Velo Increase

First off welcome.

It is impossible to know for sure but based on what I have seen with players in our area if your son works at it that type of velocity gain is more than attainable.

Go to PG's website.  Find local HS and college pitchers that you know and put their names in their search feature.  You can then go back and see what their velocity gains were over time.  You will see them all over the board.  Some throwing 88 as sophomores and throwing 86 as seniors, but for the majority they show some sort of linear velocity increase as they get older and more mature.

Good luck to your son.

Welcome to the site.  Yes, it is very reasonable to project that increase but as Backstop said, it can be all over the board.  It will be important to take necessary precautions regarding weight training while still in growth mode and arm care, including proper rest and appropriate restrictions.

Welcome to the site and like the others have said lots and lots of variables at play here to give you an answer.  I think it's safe to say that as long as he's doing the right workouts and is taking care of himself then it could very well happen.  Not a guarantee though.

I think the angle you need to look at it from is what to do and what to learn of the things you can control - workouts, bullpen work and mechanics.  At the end of the day if you've taken the right steps to prepare to throw harder you will but nobody can truly control how much velo he will put on.  

Stick around though and you will learn a ton of stuff.  Make sure to check out the search feature and use it.  Tons of information floating around these message boards.

I appreciate the quick responses. I had read somewhere where 2mph per year is not an unreasonable expectation. He has good mechanics but not quite at the consistent repeatable stage yet but when he stays back,then accelerates to the plate and is on time at front foot plant he is really competitive. Plays on a very good summer team and will see a lot of good competition. Already learned this year in JV ball that his leg left is a little too slow now when holding a runner on 1st <G>. Was super deadly when he was a younger USSSA pitcher but is having to adjust his game. His goal is to play in the Big 10.  So we'll take it year by year. I'll be around the forum for the next few years. Thanks guys.

Going into freshman year my son touched 81ish, his senior season he sets 89-92 touches 93.  So about 3 mph a year.  It doesn't always work that way had a kid I coached once pick up 7 mph in 9 months.  You never really know.  As said above control what you can and don't sweat the rest.

Dirk first welcome!

Coach May has posted in the past that he had kids coming in as freshmen throwing low 80's and leaving throwing low 80's, and others coming in low 70's and leaving low 90's - so as others have posted there is no way of knowing what your son's genetic maximum velocity will be. It is reasonable to assume a 2-3MPH increase per year, however it will likely go in jumps, like a lot of athletic developments he will probably hit plateaus for awhile. 

He needs to work on an aggressive strength and conditioning program off season with heavy emphasis on lower body, get on a long toss program, and mix in flexibility (Yoga/Pilates) training.  Erik Cressey, Drivelinebaseball, Ron Wolforth have great stuff and you can check out their websites for additional help. Also good mechanics can make a big difference also. 

All good advice, I appreciate it. He has all those things. Long toss program at his high school. They do cross fit training in the off season which is all the rage it seems now a days. They run a bunch. So he has the tools around him to succeed. He has the desire. I never hear him complain about practice. I have the money for college so he doesnt really need the scholarship per se but it would be nice. He is projected to be 6'1" and is pretty much on pace to get there I think at 5'10" as freshman. So hopefully he'll have the physiology to get to 86-88 where I think a lefty needs to get to be considered by a upper D1 with 3 pitches. Sound about right?

Dirk,

Welcome!  You will learn what I did in short order....there is a lot of folks on this site that have been where only few can dream....lots of horsepower here!

I have a 2017 LHP as well, stands just under 6'2" without shoes, 180 lbs.  His sits 83ish, can dial it up a few from there...measured on Stalker Pro.  PG has the current 2017 highest velo at 87.... Keep in mind that is the top in the country that has attended PG.

Having said the above, there is no guarantee that my son or the kid that lit up 87 at PG will have any measurable increases, but it is safe to expect so.  I have seen velo jumps by pitchers come in small increments and big jumps.  Normally it is a function of a body developing strength (the body matures), or due to a big advance in their mechanics.

You will hear many opinions from posters here, take them all for what they are worth "opinions".  I myself am not a fan at all in long toss, or anything over 180', I also don't care for pitchers running for conditioning, it's outdated.  Pitching requires explosively timed sequencing  of body movements, there are many workouts other than running that will develop those movements.....again just my opinion.

Watching top D1 games you will see LHP that sit mid to upper. 80's for sure, however they have great movement, and at least a great secondary pitch, if not two. A LHP that sits upper 80's to low 90's, and yes you will get lots of attention from most programs.

I would expect your boy, with the passion, coaching, and current measureables to certainly have put in the work to get where he needs to be.  I would estimate a freshman LHP sitting 77 to be a little above average....he looks to be well on his way!

The key to velocity are dead lifts, heavy weights (lower body off season) and then moving to explosive as you get near the season. I would check outs cressey snd Driveline for some guidance on a weight program. Focus on developing body mass in the lower body. 

BOF -  +1 on Driveline....Kyle is a very good pitching mind!  

Keep in mind however that if your growth plates have not fully closed, I'd be very careful with very heavy weights.  We just started weight training now for my freshman, and going to ease into throwing around heavy weights.  The explosive training is great however!

BOF is correct. There are many factors at play outside of your son's control. Things like genetics. So what is important? The things he can control. Proper mechanics for him. A good long toss program that he is consistent with. Proper training program. Those are things he can 100% control. The players I have coached that did those things ALL increased velo over their HS careers. The ones that did not? Well some gained a little just by getting older and stronger. And some didn't gain any.

I can only give you examples of guys that I coached and worked with. I can tell you Matt Harrison topped out in the upper 70's as a freshman as a LHP. He left sitting in the low 90's. He has been an All Star. Pitched the 7th game of a WS. And has had a great MLB career. He had great genetics working for him. But what he really had working for him was a great work ethic. There are many other examples I could give you both from guys that make great gains to guys that did nothing and got nothing out of it.

Work on what you can control. Don't waste one second worrying about what you can't. Good luck and simply go to work. The clock is ticking on every player.

You are very up to date on running, why so behind on long toss?

bb's,

Like I mentioned, just an opinion.  There are studies supporting long toss, and studies that do not advocate it.  I happen to fall on the side that does not believe there is the benefit that is believed by many,that throwing foul pole to foul pole is beneficial.  I also believe there are just as effective methods of gaining the same mechanical, and physical attributes needed to throw a baseball at high velocities, without the risk of injury.  I have looked into Cressey, Jaeger, and others that are big fans before making up my opinion, but I just don't buy the benefits.  If long toss was the only way to be a high velocity pitcher, then you would not see pitchers who have never long tossed in their life with high velocities, but that is not the case,.... therefore I believe obviously there are other ways to get there.

Most of the big jumps in HS that you hear about are jumps to get to mid 80s.  If you are starting from a decent base, you may see spurts of 2-4 mph, until it stops.  When it stops, nobody knows.

It may be you who is behind on long toss. The most recent studies (ASMI among them) indicate that long toss has no increase on velocity and may infact put more streess on the arm, stress that inherently is useless, because there is no benefit.

I hear coaches all the time touting that their kids long toss and have shown increases in velocity. However, none seem to take into account that there may be no relation whatsoever between the two. Growth in maturity and other work may be the true benefiting factor. It always gets me that the same guys who complain about overuse see no problem with sending a kid out on their off days to throw the baseball foul-pole-to-foul-pole and think somehow that adds no stress to the arm.

For me and my pitchers, we will go with ASMI and forego this useless and perhaps harmful acticity.  I would also add that longtoss has become a staple in the pro ranks in about the same period of time that TJ surgeries has risen, yet no one wants to take a look at the possible coorelation?

Absolutely.  My 2015 didn't throw at all in HS in the Spring of 2013 (played SS)....threw some in summer of 2013 (20-25 innings).  He was in the 79-80 range in July 2013.   Went to a showcase in January....not intending to pitch, but decided to because he had a break between OF and IF.  Threw 86.  He hadn't thrown a ball at all since the first week of October.  Needless to say, we were shocked.  He hit 86 again this spring in a HS game.  Will be interesting to see what he does this summer.  He's done basically no "arm work"...as he is primarily an IF...so the gain in velo was unexpected to say the least.  He did grow 4" and gain 20 lbs in the past year...so that may have a lot to do with it.

Here is a link to the abstract on Drs. Fleisig and Andrews work concerning long-toss. If anyone wants a copy of the entire paper, let me know. I can pdf it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21212502

I'd love a copy. kyle at drivelinebaseball dot com

how do you propose you get your arm in shape to pitch?

We are likely sideswiping the OP thread with regards to long toss debate, however I will add one more post regarding it.

If we can establish some points everyone can agree on, maybe my stance on long toss will make more sense. This is my opinion.

1.        High velocity pitching is not a function of arm strength, it is a misnomer that building arm strength is critical in throwing a baseball.  Yes, you have to have a minimum amount of functional arm strength, however the arm is not where velocity comes from.  Similar to hitting, for the most part, the arms are just along for the ride.  Creating bat speed, or arm whip is primarily a function of the body sequencing the legs, hips, core, and shoulders.  In throwing a baseball hard, it is the body “delivering” the arm into ball release. 

2.       In order to maximize arm whip, the body (legs, hips, core, shoulders) are required to sequence in near perfect timing,  to create elastic energy (stretch…in this case hip to shoulder separation), which in the end is converted / transferred into ball release. 

If we are in agreement with most of the two points above, then it would seem to me that throwing a baseball at maximum distance, is a rather inefficient way of developing the “full body” strength, as well as sequencing, to maximize those attributes.  Sure, I will admit, you will gain some added strength to the body parts listed above by long tossing, however every time you throw the baseball, you are adding the stress on the shoulder & elbow that occurs every time a baseball is thrown.  You can maximize, and work those same body parts in explosive exercises to gain the exact same goal, without the added stress of the arm laying back at horizontal, and slamming with each extreme throw.  You can hit all the buckets of baseballs you want without the risk of injury (for the most part), however that is not the case for pitchers.  There is a very fragile ligament that is located in the elbow, of which is not very fond of the overhead throwing motion.

You absolutely have to throw a baseball (I am not saying don't throw) - flat ground, bull pens, some throwing drills are good, however I don't believe in a structured, maximum distance throwing program, nor do I believe the perceived benefits.  Med ball slams, core work, plyo-metric training, weight training, and yoga all work the body parts needed to pitch safely, and with maximum velocity.

I do not believe arm strength (in the context most people use that term) is required or needed to throw a baseball safely.  When pitchers get fatigued on the mound, it is not because only their arm was tired, in fact legs, and core go first, which then affects the stress placed on the arm. 

Coach May,

What is/was your routine for the team on a daily basis?  Did they stick with Jaeger program daily or rotate long toss with regular distance warm ups?  How much time on pull-down phase vs. stretching it out?  Any specific variances to the Jaeger directives?

Can you honestly say that if they had taken those same throws from the mound it would not have been just as beneficial? Were your pupils who were not doing long toss doing something in its place? My point isn't that long toss has NO BENEFIT, just that it has no additional benfits over throwing form the mound or flat ground at 60' 6" and perhaps provides LESS benefit. Now if you can tell me you had a group of pitchers who threw the sam amount of mound pitches as your long-toss throwers threw at a longer distance and the mound workouts showed no improvement, you might have something. I'm betting, though, that you are comparing pitchers who used your long toss program to pitcher who did nothing in its place.

There are different views on Long Toss as a method for increasing velocity.  I have actually seen it work many times.  The debate should be about whether it can contribute to injury.  All I can say is any throwing can contribute to injury.

I understand the theory of the arm being along for the ride.  However, the arm along with the rest of the body is all important in throwing.  If the arm was just along for the ride, the elbow and shoulder injuries wouldn't even matter.  You could have a broken arm and still throw maximum velocity.  When scouting pitchers " arm action" is very important.  Still it is true that you throw with your entire body.

Everything above is simply my opinion. TIFWIW

I am way above my pay grade trying to talk pitching with the likes of BFS and Coach May... And most everyone else here.  But I will say that Soylent Grunt took an aggressive approach to long toss, plyo and core strength training this past winter.  His velocity was below avg last summer and he did see a sizable jump this spring from last summer and fall.  He also added about 2" and maybe 7-8 lbs from last year, so who knows.  As the guy on the other end of the football field one and two-hopping balls back to him, the only thing I would offer specific to this thread is that the long toss wasn't mostly about adding arm strength in my view. To me it's more about increasing arm flexibility, connecting the arm with the lower half, firing the hips(and everything) in sequence, and generating/increasing arm speed and range. Pull down phase is the key activity, IMO, and it definitely isn't the same motion as throwing a pitch.  But I still feel like it translated into better overall mechanics and, in the end, greater velo.  As far as wear and tear, I think there can be no question that it's nearly as hard on the arm as pitching... Though probably not as much so.  Son experienced no discomfort during or after LT sessions.  He's continuing LT once per week between starts this summer, which his coach suggested for him last season. Just my layman's experience with it FWIW.

Some rides are smoother than others.

Hello and welcome to the forum.

I am happy to hear you can afford college, but remember some are as much as $60K per year. I was asked once by a respected coach "if I was rich" because they wanted my son, but had no money to offer. Even though I can afford SOME colleges cost, this school at $55k was well out of my ability to pay.

As to your other notion, a upper 80's LHP will certainly get noticed by at least mid D1's. The trick of course is getting him to that velo first, and with control. Your son may very well achieve that velo, but you never know. Regardless, take the advice of the other posters and keep him on the right track.

Best of luck and we hope you remain a regular member of the forum.

I would strongly caution roothog and others from interpreting the conclusions of ASMI's studies too literally. The data says something significantly different than the editorialized conclusions presented in the study.

Increasing arm stress is not necessarily a bad thing at all. Not really worth getting into details since in my experience 99.99999% of people have their minds made up and fit data to their pre-made conclusions. 

What he said.

Coach May,

I wish you had not deleted your post, I did not see any bad tone in it, but it did provide good insight.  You certainly have experience, and results to back up your claims.  I stated in my post that a person can increase arm whip from long toss.  I juts have the opinion that there may be other ways to equally or even more so increase arm speed without the extreme long distance throws.  I don't like the slamming impact specifically on the elbow.

While I don't have a Matt Harrison to my resume, I too have experience with pitchers on a specific program that also increases arm speed / velo.  TPM has a son that throws upper 90's that never threw past 120'.  

At at the end of the day, the obvious takeaway is both techniques can work.  Building a pitcher includes training the arm, and entire body for the workload.  There are many paths you can take, and they all include a progression.

I had no problem with your post. I know you and I know that your advice and intentions are good.

What I do have is a problem with some here who will challenge everything you say, negatively that is.

There are more ways to skin a cat, but if you have to give reasons why you prefer it one way to the same person all of the time, its not even worth posting anymore.

Couple of points:

To augment Kyle's post regarding the AMSI long toss study there were some serious flaws in their data collection techniques they used to measure velocity that have been pointed out previously that could flaw their conclusions. 

TPM, farther is harder, they are directly related. 

There are many paths to take but what remains constant is that you have to work on "throwing a baseball hard" to achieve high velocities and doing so stresses the arm. As ASMI has pointed out the harder you throw the more at risk you are. (D'Oh) Some have a god given talent and most others have to work very very hard which includes weight training, pilates, yoga, plyometrics, long toss, weighted balls, bands, and just plain throwing the ball a lot. 

Guys like Ron Wolforth and Kyle Boddy and Eric Cressey are starting to demystify some of the long held, (and even newer) beliefs that may or may not help in achieving high velocity throwing. I have found there is a lot more information available now than there was even three years ago. 

My son plays in a DIII program that routinely has some of the best pitching staffs in the country at that level and the one constant I have seen the last three years are that the kids who are throwing harder just work harder at it (and do it over a number of years)

I was at the Rice Regional yesterday and watched two games and my son said that he has three pitchers in his program who could absolutely compete at that level, but all of them are rising Sr's that worked really hard for three years to get there. All of them used a combination of the techniques I mentioned above but I am in awe on how many hours these kids put into achieving these results, I think most give up before they get to their genetic max. 

Do your research, pick a path and work harder than the guys around you and you will likely be surprised at the results. 

By no means do I think long toss is NECESSARY to build velocity, in fact, my athletes tend to do far less long toss than most pitchers who receive instruction. However, I do think it's a good modality that can be used on a regular basis to keep the arm in shape and to help new mechanical patterns "stick."

I recommend that long toss be done a lot in-season. It's a good way to occupy pitcher-only time.

+1