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Pithers height and downward plane

GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
Been going to practice and one of the coaches keeps talking about a pitchers height and how it relates to more downward plane on the ball. While in some aspects I agree with a pitchers height being taller is perhaps having its advantages for being drafted, I am not sure how it all really relates to downward plane. Perhaps teaching this can even be bad.

For instance, Downward plane has more to do with a pitchers arm slot than it does his height. Even if we are speaking about angles and planes that the ball comes in on, it can varry greatly depending upon how low or tall a pitcher finishes, or even which side of the rubber he pitches from. Anyways, I see a lot of pitchers in my area trying to increase their arm slot to what apperas to be abnormal over the top slots to get this coveted "downward plane" only to give up velocity and movement. As it relates to height, I am not sure I understand how taller guys are more projectable because of more "downward plane" trajectory. Sometimes I wonder where people get their information. Am I making sense or am I high?

Suppose you have two guys- one is 6"1" and throws from a high 3/4 slot. The other guy is 6'4" and throws low 3/4 to the point of almost being sidearm. Downward plane in this instance has nothing to do with the relation of his height as both pitch from different slots. Perhaps the lower slot is greater in this instance in some scouts eyes because of the increased angle and movement of the ball. Perhaps the higher slot is greater in some scouts eyes because of the greater downward plane or trajectory. But in neither case, height has nothing to do with downward plane, that is established by arm slot. Then again, as another angle to consider is how long somebodys arms are and how wide they are between their shoulders. Technically speaking, a guy with longer arms but is shorter may create a greater angle or trajectory than a guy who is taller but has shorter arms. Then when you start figuring in ratios of leg to back or even differences in head size and neck length, it may not really equate to height meaning more angle at all. Then you have the issue of pitching from different sides on the rubber pitching to different locations in or out of the strike zone to create greater angle varriances. Anyway, you get the point.

From my POV it appears that a pitchers height + his arm slot has nothing to do with being a prospect. In other terms, it doesn't appear to me that scouts are looking for taller pitcher throwing from a high slot merely for that so called coveted downward trajectory. I read the MLB scouting reports on pitchers and see no correlation with tall pitchers and high arm slots as being most coveted. Instead I see descent to average height with 3/4 arm slot as being the general "bar" that gets the best results due to an increase of natural ball movement. I really see no correlation to being a better prospect because of a greater downward trajectory due to both height and higher arm slot combined.

Again from my POV, it seems that it comes in this order-

1. velocity and arm movement- is it easy or hard
2. height- is he tall, average, or short
3. movement and angle- arm slot and/or ball movement
4. feel for offspeed and breaking pitches- good or bad, slow or hard, deception or not.
5. control- can he control his emotions and his locations.

I believe the philospohy of a higher arm slot to create a greater downward plane has a negative impact on most pitchers trying to get noticed because they increase their arm slot height believeing the greater downward palne will be the ticket, but in the meantime they lose velocity throwing from an un-natural slot.

What do you think about "downward plane"? Is it over-rated, misinterpreted or spot on? Does a pitchers height really get equated to a greater downward plane, or is it mostly determined by arm length or arm slot?
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B baseballpapa100+ posts
The downward plane argument is not well-thought out. I am almost 6'5" and I, with a normal 3/4 slot would have a 4 degree downward plane from release point to top of knees 55' away. A player almost one foot shorter would have a one degree less plane.

It should be a non-issue. Randy Johnson had a low slot and almost negated his height. Lincecum and other shorter pitchers get closer to the plate and have a great arm. That's more important than how tall they are.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa:
The downward plane argument is not well-thought out. I am almost 6'5" and I, with a normal 3/4 slot would have a 4 degree downward plane from release point to top of knees 55' away. A player almost one foot shorter would have a one degree less plane.

It should be a non-issue. Randy Johnson had a low slot and almost negated his height. Lincecum and other shorter pitchers get closer to the plate and have a great arm. That's more important than how tall they are.


I agree that the downward plane argument is weak. I can see it having some merit, but not to the extent of what some proclaim.

Last weekend I went and watched our local pro team, a farm team for KC Royals, and watched 8 different pitchers ranging from just under 6' to 6'5". I was sitting real close on the first row and was watching the differences in arm slots and angles and plane trajectories and to tell you the truth, I couldn't really see much difference. The best pitcher of the night was on the opposing team, threw gas, and had a great slider and was also the smallest of all the pitchers we saw. He also had the lowest ERA of all the pitchers we saw who had pitched more than 3 games. It just as easily could have been the tallest, it just seemed that downward plane trajectory wasn't what was upsetting batters, at least not on this night, neither was height a factor. The two biggest factors were his velocity and his great slider. Batters were looking rather foolish.

I can see where a taller, or longer arm type gets better angles coming to home plate from their slots, I just don't see it as the #1 deal breaker. So many other factors for each individual pitcher. For Lincecum, it's better he is smaller and jumps out towards the batter with an insane delivery while for Randy Johnson it was all about his long arm and low 3/4 slot to enhance his wicked slider angle and movement.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...G1023164/1/index.htm

Here's an older article I had stashed away from a few years ago, I am not sure things have changed that much, there are reasons why they prefer taller guys, not sure if it's all because of the downward projectory plane but only a part of it.


Thanks for the link, it was a good read. I agree with the article about height equating to longer levers and thus a greater potential for velocity in general.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
I agree with you I don't see it as the #1 deal breaker either. Not sure why pitchers would change their slot, thinking that this will make them more appealing, better off to stick with their natural slot and just improve upon what they have. If they do get drafted, then let those that know best do their job (making adjustments). I guess to each their own.

I am going to assume you were watching Idaho Falls Chuckars (sp?), keep in mind that this is a rookie level class league, most of those pitchers most likely are young, newly drafted and the organization hasn't even begun to go to work on them as yet. Interesting thing to do, note the pitchers you saw pitch and follow their progress for a few years. You will be surprised to find the ones struggling may be the ones that will succeed at the higher levels. My son's teammate, who has struggled somewhat at the lower levels is mowing them down in AA, not so much by his velo (which tops 92-93) or a lot of swings that miss but by his sinker, which at 6'6" probably keeps them guessing where it's going to come in at. I am going to assume, with 4 seasons in the organization and a lot of hard work, he may be a good example of that downward projectory plane.


Yeah, they are the Chukars. They kind of suck, but is still fun to watch. We watched two different kids make their debut in the league last weekend, thats always fun to watch the new kids coming in. We've seen a few of the top rounders go through and that salways fun also. Billy Butler would get a huge welcome everytime he would come up to bat. We have another couple of studs right now, but they will more than likely move up quickly.

We have one pitcher who caught on the organization for like 4 years and then they decided to turn him into a pitcher and so he is back at the bottom pitching now. It's like the great shuffle at this level, you never know what you're gonna get. The other night they had the starting catcher close the game out on the mound in the 10'th inning. I thought that was strange considering the huge bullpen full of guys. This is where most of the new signees come to play though and so anything happens and often does.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
The HSBBW exalted all knowing all seeing pitching Guru गुर in the sky came down from the great Stadium in the sky with 10 stone home plate tablets. One of them etched in sanskrit with “Tall Pitchers”, it said:

“Some tall ones have it, some don’t. Some tall ones with it get outs, and some don’t. Short ones don’t have it and get outs, and some don’t. If you got it use it, and if you don’t, don’t worry about it - just get outs. If you don’t you won’t be using any of it.”
Last edited by BOF
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Very true BOF.
GBM,
We have got some websters here whose sons play for the organization so I don't know if that description would be appropriate. Remember these are first time pro players, far removed from family and friends in Idaho, perhaps to some, this might not be where they imagined they would be (though better days ahead).

The Royals have an unbelievable AA team this year, even after the guys get moved up the talent moves in, and a very good AAA team, I don't know much about their other teams. The TL player of the year is from their team. And the Royals have the most players going into USA trials.

Rookie level is nothing like the next levels, just a place to get your feet wet. Most are not full season, so they have only been playing since June.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
I've always felt that both the tall and the small have their own particular advantages. IMO, the shorter pitchers with good velocity can be more effective than taller pitchers throwing up in the zone because the ball isn't sinking as much on the high pitches because they are releasing at a higher angle. I like to use Washburn as an example of a guy who really didn't throw all that hard but had a very effective high fastball. Oswalt would be an example of a hard thrower who is able to work up in the zone. Tom Seaver turned himself into a pitcher who could do that with his stride and low release point.

The tall pitchers tend to be more effective throwing down in the zone because they are throwing down at an angle if they throw over the top and if they are throwing 3/4 or sidearm they tend to get more sink. Chris Young would be an extreme example.

Like any generalization there are cases where it will be wrong but IMO it holds true more often than not.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
Very true BOF.
GBM,
We have got some websters here whose sons play for the organization so I don't know if that description would be appropriate. Remember these are first time pro players, far removed from family and friends in Idaho, perhaps to some, this might not be where they imagined they would be (though better days ahead).

The Royals have an unbelievable AA team this year, even after the guys get moved up the talent moves in, and a very good AAA team, I don't know much about their other teams. The TL player of the year is from their team. And the Royals have the most players going into USA trials.

Rookie level is nothing like the next levels, just a place to get your feet wet. Most are not full season, so they have only been playing since June.


I agree with you there. By "sucks", I was meaning that as a team and trying to win with everything going on, it doesn't happen very consistantly and can be disapointing from that stanpoint alone. I realize they are more about doing certain things with certain players and are more concerned with their development rather than the "w". If people knew this going to the ballpark it would be a lot more pleasant for everyone. Most fans go with the belief that it is all about winning and for them it can be dissapointing when it appears that the coaches don't know what they are doing when in fact they are doing exactly what the organization wants them to do, even if it doesn't mean a win.

I always cheer in my heart for every pitcher, batter and position player, including the opposing team's hurlers to throw well at this level. I can't stand it very much when a pitcher at this level has a skyrocketing era and it appears there is no end in site. I feel for these guys, it must be rough for them. No one wants to struggle at this level because it may mean the beginning to a quick end professionally. Like you said though, coaches may see something they like and move them up and they can dominate at the nexy level.

I wish every kid I saw at this level could make it far, it's sad that many do not make it. I always wonder at this level that somewhere, perhaps even in the stands next to me is a proud Mother, father or family member of the young prospect on the mound or in the batters box and I just wish the best for them and want them to enjoy the ride also. Nothing in baseball is greater than accomplishment, and yet, to accomplish in baseball means that you personally defeated another.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CADad:
I've always felt that both the tall and the small have their own particular advantages. IMO, the shorter pitchers with good velocity can be more effective than taller pitchers throwing up in the zone because the ball isn't sinking as much on the high pitches because they are releasing at a higher angle. I like to use Washburn as an example of a guy who really didn't throw all that hard but had a very effective high fastball. Oswalt would be an example of a hard thrower who is able to work up in the zone. Tom Seaver turned himself into a pitcher who could do that with his stride and low release point.

The tall pitchers tend to be more effective throwing down in the zone because they are throwing down at an angle if they throw over the top and if they are throwing 3/4 or sidearm they tend to get more sink. Chris Young would be an extreme example.

Like any generalization there are cases where it will be wrong but IMO it holds true more often than not.


I understand what you are saying. I watch our team throw bullpens and the height and arm slots varry greatly. One pitcher on the team is tall and throws from directly over the top and is very intimidating from that aspect alone. But, he has his spots he must hit or else the ball just flattens out and says "hit me" all over it. His best pitch is definatly his curveball which is a true 12-6 break and is very hard to read even if you know its coming. He doesn't get much movement on his fastball, but when he keeps it low it creates a pretty daunting angle for batters to try to hit.

Speaking of angles and locations, I watch my son throw a lot and have noticed lately that when he can throw to the low outside corner it becomes very deceptive. He throws from a 3/4 arm slot and usually throws from the middle right side of the mound (more to the right than middle). The angle is thus quite daunting. He can also throw up and in effectively, the ball actually appears to "climb" at that angle. Throwing down and in also is effective and draws a swing almost every time. His pitches tend to flatten out and look meaty when he leaves it over the middle of the plate anyhwhere- high or low. I think it is because the ball tends to tail more into the batters sweet spot and batters pick up on it better.

Another pitcher on the team throws very low 3/4, almost sidearm, and his pitches sink and fade drastically when he can keep it knee level. He is perhaps the most daunting on the team because of the great movement he has on his fastball. I would swear that ball moves a good foot in it's run in on right handers. A lot of balls hit off the handle happens when he pitches. Like my son though, if he leaves it in the middle it seems that the ball tails into their bat path making it easily hit.

I love discussing planes and angles and strategy in this manner. I believe most people, coaches, and players themselves do not spen enough time understanding the differences in each pitcher and how they can take advantage of natural angles, locations, etc to really develop a pitcher into being more successful and confident. Too often i see bullpens and the pitchers and catchers just seem to go through the motions and never see any instructor or video running to analyze and pick up on differnt things to help improve the pitcher.
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.
Mine are both 6'6"...a lefty and a righty.… Specifically regarding arm angle changes and height this is the coach subjective reality that they found…

I am not convinced that arm angle changes are really thought out in detail. The formula is simple...There are three variables that are to be considered…arm angle, height and the big V, Velocity.

Velocity still trumps…You are tall and throw at “qualifying velocity” and scouts/recruiters will note arm angle and height and predict upside by it, but they will leave the arm angle alone.

IF…however you are high arm angle/under qualifying velocity the trend says…without velocity as a weapon the high arm angle dooms you…and you must resort to trickery and add a "plane of horizontal deception" = lowering your arm angle.

IF…on the other hand…you are low arm angle/under qualifying velocity the trend says…a high arm angle will offer both a steeper angle of attack and more velocity (down hill)…so take that arm angle up.

As a result the two of mine went through 4 arm angle changes. My younger has gone through 3 alone.


Cool 44
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Last edited by observer44

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