Player character

This is a tough question that I feel has many correct answers.

1.) All things being equal athletically, I will take the kid who has been working hard over the kid who has not. I doubt that is a revolutionary concept for coaches.

2.) I feel that a lot of decisions I make come down to do I feel that I can depend on a kid. His off the field activities show me a lot about how trustworthy and how dependable he is. A kid who is at our off season workouts, or who is working hard on his own, is more trustworthy and more dependable to me than a kid who is not.

3.) With all that being said, talent obviously plays a huge role in playing time. If a kid is clearly more talented, he will see more playing time, or has a better chance of making the team. In other words, doing the right thing doesn't always translate to more playing time or to making the team.

This is not to say that I will play anyone regardless of their actions off the field. Discipline and doing the right thing is a huge part of what we are trying to get across to our athletes. As coaches we need to discipline our athletes when necessary and one of the ways we can do that is by taking away playing time.

What I have seen over the years at all levels is that talent trumps everything else.
If a bad actor has top talent his bad behavior will be overlooked to a point. It takes a lot for a coach to say no to a very great player. All you have to do is look at pro sports. I know of 2 players who were suspended by their teams and were drafted. One is a very good player who should be in the show soon.

Great question. First, I'm betting that the coach knows. There are enough people out there willing to speak up so that he will know. No one is perfect. We had a young man with a tremendous arm that couldn't/wouldn't get into the fold. I started hearing the rumors. I called him and we had a talk. He wrote me a letter/pledge to clean up. I told him that everytime I heard something disparaging, I'd make a simple post of a Zebra outside my classroom on the Baseball Board. I also told him that I would not divuldge to anyone else what that Zebra meant. "A Zebra doesn't change it's stripes." It was not uncommon for me to post that Zebra. Well, on the second day of tryouts, he came up and told me he was a Zebra and walked away. He knew that I knew he hadn't changed his ways. That was enough. He couldn't go through the year knowing that I was on to him. I don't know if this was right or wrong. It simply was my way of letting him know that I was giving him a chance. He didn't want to change.

Edited to add - we had a sophomore that year that got his chance due to this young man packing it in. That sophomore went on to have a great career here and in college. I'm very proud of him.

Whenever this subject comes up I like to relate this story. My ex partner's roomate at Arizona State University played baseball on the team. After about 1 month the team had a meeting about a certain player that was disruptive, a real pain, nobody got along with him. After the meeting, the captains went into the head coaches office to explain their decision that they wanted this kid off of the team. The head coach threw them out and said no way. The player was Barry Bonds.
Talent trumps everything. At least above HS.

Donutman: great story.

Though I agree that talent is the overriding factor in determining who makes the team, I believe at the same time a coach can't overlook these other issues. Last year this same team had to kick 3 starters off the team for drinking mid-season, which had a real effect on the team's success the rest of the year. If I were the coach I'd think long and hard about it so as not to have a repeat of last season.

Given that the off season stuff is not mandatory, I would not take that into consideration in terms of who does or doesn't make the team. I would start the practices with everyone at zero and let them make their case on the field. If they have not been working out, it won't take long for that to show vs those who have been doing the work.

While it may not be true in this case, I know that in some cases, players may be working out elsewhere in the off season - with private coaches, travel teams, attending camps and showcases etc. particularly when you are talking about senior players who may be trying to find that right college fit. In my experience, it is not safe to assume that a failure to attend off season training means that a kid is not working out.

As for the other off the field activities - that is worthy of a first day speech to the team to remind them that they are representing the school and that a higher standard applies. I would also have one on one talks with the "suspects" early on and just make sure they know that I know about their off season antics.

08

Last year our HS coach pulled a couple kids up from JV to play V. One of them was up for a couple games and then back on JV. The other kid stayed on V.

A month or so ago I was kinda feeling the V coach out about who he might be taking up this year. I mentioned the two most obvious kids and the kid who played up a couple games. He agreed that the two most obvious would come up barring something unforeseen, but when I mentioned the other kid he said no way. He didn't say why, but the kid has an attitude. My son played with him on JV and told me he was the most disliked kid on the team, despite being one of the better players.

That's one coach's way of dealing with attitudes.

I believe one of our local programs dropped a senior player referred to in the paper by the coach as the ace of the staff for a discipline issue last season. That's the rumor at least and the kid didn't play. They still ended up nationally ranked. That being said I believe 08Dad got it right.

quote:

Case in point...though the tryouts are 3 weeks away for my son's high school team, the off season has resulted in several off field issues that cause me some concern.

the coach is the one who should be concerned

Woody, Is your son a junior who most likely won't get a varsity roster spot? You appear to be concerning yourself with things your son and you have no control over. Your son has control over how well he performs, not how others behave or whom the coach selects for his roster. Tell your son to stay focused on what he can control. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Woody, Is your son a junior who most likely won't get a varsity roster spot? You appear to be concerning yourself with things your son and you have no control over. Your son has control over how well he performs, not how others behave or whom the coach selects for his roster. Tell your son to stay focused on what he can control. Good luck.

You're right. My son can only control his performance. Based on his talent and work ethic, he'll be alright. And believe me, he doesn't give a darn about what the other kids are doing off the field. I'm just trying to get a feel for how you other experienced HS coaches take these issues into consideration. I'm used to coaching summer ball, and the head coach and myself have always taken character (including the parents) into consideration when deciding whether to keep a kid or not. From past experiences we've found that one bad apple can spoil a whole team--and make for a miserable summer! I guess HS coaches tend to see things in a different light.

I have been waiting for this discussion for a VERY LONG TIME. Here comes my true story.

My oldest son, when he was a sophomore in high school, was the only underclass position player starting on his local high school team. That is right. There were 7 senior position players. And most of them were also the starting/bullpen pitchers for the team. This team of seniors had, the previous year as juniors, gone to the Regional Championship game for AAA high schools[that basecally means that they were somewhere between the fourth best and the eighth best team in the State that year]. It was, up to that time, the winningest team this high school had ever had. They only lost three senior tarters off that team and were expected to be even better this year.

During the early "volunteer workouts" [held for 2 hours every Sunday afternoon] my son kept coming back to me and telling me about how only one or two of these seniors were showing up each Sunday. When he talked to these players not coming, he told me that they simply said "It doesn't matter. We started last year and coach will play us regardless." I told my son that it made no difference what they did, it was what he did that was important and I kept drving him to Sunday practices.

When tryout time came, all the seniors were kept and several less talented underclassmen who had made all the Sunday practices were cut. When the games started, the team began to make a habit out of losing. In fact, their season record was 5 wins and 24 loses. But that is not the most interesting part of the story. About halfway through the season, the seniors approached my son with a request. They told him that they had played their last couple of games high and they wanted him to join them before the game so that the whole team would be high for the next game.

Maybe talent wins out over character every time but maybe it should not.

TW344

I think there certain risks in cutting a kid because of what he might have done off the field. First of all, are the accusations tru? Who is judge and the jury? Who is telling the coach about what these kids did? The father a competing kid!! Suppose the coach cuts a kid because of what he heard and the story turns out to be not 100% accurate.

Like all other levels of baseball, parents should stay out of the decision making process. Like RJM said, worry about what the player can control. Don't worry about the nonsense.

Character is really important and the backbone of the team. I don't care how talented a kid is - if he makes me miserable and not want to come to games / practice I don't want him. I know it's a cliche but I would rather coach a team full of good kids and lose than coach a team full of bad kids and lose - winning still cures MOST ills.

I had a kid as a freshman who was constantly in trouble. I finally booted him about halfway through the season. I told him if he could stay out of trouble and be a good kid in school I would let him back. He didn't and when he came out the next year as a sophomore I told him to leave. He got in school suspension about 8 times before tryouts. I told him he couldn't tryout because he was a troublemaker and didn't want to put up with him.

I told him again if he could keep out of trouble he could try out again. I also told him to play football and if the football coach told me he was good then he could come back out.

His junior year he stayed out of trouble, was a good football player, football coach said he was great in practice and as a teammate. I let him come out and so far (this is his junior year) he has been great. Works hard and hustles and is great in helping younger players.

Don't put up with attitudes but always let them have chances to redeem themselves.

As for TW344's situation - that is just sad those kids chose to do that. Thank goodness your son didn't go down that path and was much more mature than those "leaders".

coach2709,
I don't think many people disagree with how one would handle bad character, and it sounds like you are doing it right. My question would be when you have a really talented player with average character vs an average player with really good character. What is the the approach then? I think that's where coaches sometimes get into trouble.

theres many different philosophies. we dont cut per say. if you are a good kid, good student and show up everyday we will keep you on the team. when it comes to playing time you have to be able to play. we tell our kids that its not easy playing for us - you have to be a GOOD kid and a GOOD player.
we are in a good situation where our football and basketball coaches have the same philosophy. so our kids know they better keep their noses clean and do a good job in the classroom.
it can be done. this is my 6th year as head coach(i was an assistant here for several years) we've been ranked in the top ten in the state 3 times in my first 5 years with conference championships/substate appearances and we've never had below a 3.0 gpa as a team.
when weve got a kid we think is a good kid but going astray we try to do some kind of contract with him. this has usually worked out in a positive way. kids are going to make mistakes.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
coach2709,
I don't think many people disagree with how one would handle bad character, and it sounds like you are doing it right. My question would be when you have a really talented player with average character vs an average player with really good character. What is the the approach then? I think that's where coaches sometimes get into trouble.

You make a great point that coaches get into trouble with a great athlete with bad character / attitude. In a perfect world coaches would do the same and get rid of him until he proved he could behave but let's face it - they don't. In all honesty I would probably give the good athlete a few more chances than I would the average athlete. I hate to say it but I think I probably would but if he didn't change I know for a fact I would get rid of him.

Several years ago I booted my best player from the team the day before we started playoffs. He kept coming late to everything and I tried to punish him by running him, sitting him, talking to him - whatever. Finally the day before playoffs it was raining and we were going to practice at the field but I also told them if it was raining to meet in the gym. He strolls in about 9 or 10 minutes late because he went to the field first. There was no doubt we were going to be at the gym because of the rain.

I told him to get out and he started cussing and yelling at me. As he was doing that I never felt better in my life because it really did validate my decision that getting rid of him was best.

I probably did give him more chances than I would another player because he had a great family. His older brother played for me and I thought the world of him. His mom and dad were some of my best backers and really took up for me when the idiot parents were trying to get me fired. I guess I just wanted to get through the season with him because he was a senior.

I made the statement if you were late to practice you were off the team. I put myself in that corner and if I backed down and just punished him I would have lost all credibility. It was something I had to do although I hated it. I couldn't really stand the guy but I hated it for his family.

Ultimately if you keep bad characters / attitudes around your life will be miserable and lose credibility with your other players. You have to can them sometimes.

If your going to be a part of our team you are going to be a student that stays out of trouble. You are going to make good grades. You are going to be respectful of your team mates and coaches. You are going to stay out of trouble off the field and off the campus. If you do not do these things , how talented you are or are not not will never come into the equation. You will not be a part of our program.

I am not interested in spending my time around someone that is not willing to follow these rules. And I am darn sure not interested in allowing someone to tarnish our programs reputation or be around our guys who follow these rules. I could careless how talented a kid is. You do it right or you dont do it at all.

Huh? I didn't say a kid with bad character. I said a kid with average character. A good kid but nothing special on the character scale. Most teams are going to have a few players who are incredible hustlers, etc., a couple players who just go through the motions, and most of the players are average. They work hard, but not the hardest. They do what they are supposed to but not extra. They behave well but they aren't necessarily leaders. So do the hustlers with average talent play ahead of the talented players with average character?

Coach May,

You da man!

Team have rules...abide by them or don't be part of the team. You want to represent the school you'll keep your nose clean and make grades. You want to be part of this program and represent this team out in the community you follow the rules 365 days of the year. Mess up you're gone. Straighten up and you'll get another chance on the coach's terms, not yours.

Talented players without character are all over the place...usually you'll find them crying in their beer about "what coulda been".

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Huh? I didn't say a kid with bad character. I said a kid with average character. A good kid but nothing special on the character scale. Most teams are going to have a few players who are incredible hustlers, etc., a couple players who just go through the motions, and most of the players are average. They work hard, but not the hardest. They do what they are supposed to but not extra. They behave well but they aren't necessarily leaders. So do the hustlers with average talent play ahead of the talented players with average character?

Sounds like a tough call. Would have to depend on who is producing more.. You can have all kinds of talent, but without hustle (for example) your talent doesn't show quite as much. On the other hand, your less talented player may appear to be more talented than he really is because of his hustle.

The best players play. The players that give your team the best chance to win that game today. As far as hustle all our kids hustle. They all work hard. Some are leaders some are not. Your job as a coach is to put the guys on the field that give your team the best chance to win.

An update...My son informs me yesterday that one of the better pitchers on the team (and one of the players referred to in my initial post) was suspended for 5 days yesterday. Since pitchers and catchers just started Monday for a 2-week tryout, he's going to miss half of that. Also, there is now the potential for him being accademically ineligible since he's missing all that school time at the start of a new term. What's a coach to do?