Just to clarify.....some places have 8th graders playing in the spring with HS? That's not done here in Ohio. What's the reasoning? We have junior high baseball in the spring (7th and 8th grade).....just like we do in every sport. 8th graders never play with HS kids.....heck, in Ohio they aren't even allowed to attend a HS practice even if they were good enough to.
We are in the north so not much to worry about with regard to tryouts other than staying sharp and in shape.
Knowns are that Freshman and sophomores can move up and play, if they are either good enough or kind of good and related to one of the coaches, or have another connection like booster club. Kids who do not play on the summer team affiliated with the Varsity HC (we don't) get dinged.
My son likes the Varsity HC and the new asst who as his Frosh coach, but he won't play on the affiliated team because he doesn't like the HC of that team, or the players (who tend to be "bad" kids he doesn't have in class). My kid is 3.95 GPA, and kind of a goody 2 shoes. Football players run the HS and he doesn't play football, "vape" (whatever that is about) but he does get along with EVERYONE. So fine by me, he's making good choices. We avoid that team and it will hurt us a little. Not the end of the world.
I know that if my son hits .450 with 5 or 6 home runs and leads his team in all offensive categories and pitching in the first half of the season, like he did last year, they will eventually give him opportunities to play up because the program is also trying to win. I know that the coaches won't keep his bat out of the lineup forever, so he'll play enough. We fully expect all kinds of initial injustice and I told my son to relish that with a smile because it will give you something to overcome, and make you a better player and person in the long run.
We also know that HS ball has absolutely no connection to his college opportunities as long as he stays positive, and that he should work hard but also have fun and enjoy playing with his buddies. Summer ball is where we'll be getting after it for the next 2 seasons. HS ball is what it is. We view it as important, and fun, but more as the pre-season.
Yes we can play 7th graders if they are ready here in MS. Most school don't have a Jr. High baseball team. I really don't like it because of all the other issues and things that HS kids are doing vs MS kids but if we don't do it you fall behind and the better kids transfer to a program that is allowing it.
JCG posted:cabbagedad posted:hshuler posted:I would play my best players regardless of age.
Yup
Putting your best 9 on the field is the easy part of the decision, IMO. When it comes to underclassmen the harder question is, "are the next best 9 players better off on V or JV?"
I'm kind of split on that. I've seen freshman thrive in a limited role, and I've seen them melt down. Overall, just from anecdotal observation as a parent, I think if a freshman position player is good enough to get lots of reps in practice and some game innings on the field, he's better off on Varsity in most but not all cases. But if a pitcher will not get game innings, he should play JV. When coach keeps a freshman on V just for emergency use, it's shortsighted and counterproductive.
I agree with everything you said except for the first sentence. In many cases the best 9 are not on the field. Only the good HS coaches seem to get that right.
I had no doubt this thread would turn in this direction. There are some strong beliefs when it comes to this topic. I held my first team meeting Monday. I wanted to make some things clear from the start. One of those things is that nothing and I mean nothing will determine your playing time or lack of playing time that is outside of your control. Your age, your size, your grade year, who your Dad is, who your Mom is, what you did on the field last year, how many awards you have won or haven't won, nothing. What will determine your role on this team?
What you show us now.
There are many issues that arise when guys know they are going to graduate into a role, inherit a role, get a role because of anything outside of what they show on the field. One thing for sure is you don't build a winning culture. You create a culture of entitlement. I am a Jr and he is a Soph so I deserve it. I am a Sr I have paid my dues so it's my turn. So what if I don't work as hard as he does I'm a Sr.
What happens when players know the only factor and I mean the only factor is what they show you as a staff? Then the only thing that matters is totally within their control. It brings about a true competitive environment. What happens when the Soph is at every fall work out. Busts his butt in the off season to get better. Shows up in the spring and clearly is the better player. While the JR or Sr has taken it easy because well he's the Jr or Sr. You start them over the Soph? They get the nod simply because they are the older player? Someone explain to me how that builds a wining culture?
If a Jr or Sr is not the better option than a Soph or Freshman why is that? Was it because they were outworked? Was it because the younger player is just simply more talented? Why should a younger player be punished because he is the younger player? More importantly why should the team be punished? And what about those SR's? Don't they deserve the team mates around them on the field that give them the best opportunity to win? Or would they rather have the less talented buddies around them instead?
I am not looking for an argument just putting some thoughts out there. I have always and will this year practice my team as a unit. We will work on running the bases together. Position play together. Scrimmage together. And the cream will rise to the top. And I won't see year or anything else. I will see best options period. If you are a freshman and you are the best SS in our program you will be the SS. If you can't handle the pressure or your not quite ready you will go where you can play. If you are a Jr or Sr and you think you have graduated into a role you will learn very quickly you have thought wrong.
If a Fr or So is on varsity they are playing a significant role or they are on JV where they can play a significant role. If a Jr or Sr is not capable of playing a significant role they won't be. I understand that others will do things differently. And that's fine by me. I believe that you earn it you don't inherit it.
Our school is about 8 years old and has had a very similar problem. The ironic part is that one "fix" created other issues. 2016s had some talent when they were freshmen, so 4 were pulled up to start when there freshmen when there were similar players at the higher grades. Coach chose to build for the future, start the freshmen, and ended up having a lot of upperclassmen quit playing baseball. 2017s were in eighth grade that year and had a ton of talent(including my son). Fortunately, there is a ton of competitive travel teams, tournaments, and players in central california that play 9-10 months of the year. This group developed on the circuit and competed on multiple teams and against the best in the west. During travel ball, these guys were already bonded and would guest play with each others' teams to help build chemistry. 2017s stayed together on frosh and JV during hS season and dominated, went undefeated at JV together. They should have sought out higher competition, but fortunately, our area has a lot of very talented young pitchers to keep them honest.
So, fast forward to 2016. 1 more transfer was added to 2016. Now you have 5 "anointed players" that have started on varsity for 4 years, meanwhile the true talent was in the junior class. Seniors hitting low 200s were getting a majority of at bats and juniors on spot duty would be hitting 150 plus points higher. That year was decent still. We came in second in league and lost first playoff game. My son at least held down one spot in CF that was vacant and was first team all league and district at a new position since the infield was spoken for already.
2017, the group that had to wait for their chance to play. Start the season 26-0. A new D1 school that no one in rankings had heard of before, finally climb the rankings to peak at 8 in the state. Early season offensive categories lead the section and are just absurd for the whole lineup. The season does fall short of a section banner but is a very proud and historical season. Every one of those 2017s are playing at the next level for baseball and 1 is playing football, even the reserves. Coach had been coaching 26 years, felt that easily was the best team he ever had, and doesnt think he will ever have a team like that again.
Back to the OP, I feel that if you bring those guys up too early it may be a mistake for a few reasons. What if there is more talent behind them, do you leap frog these guys after they have been varsity for 4 years? I believe that live at bats and innings pitched are irreplacable. Team chemistry goes a long way. Work closely with the freshman and JV coach. Work hand in hand with the pitchers, catchers and fielders scouting the opponents. Use these years to develop skills, speed, agility, communication and chemistry. Let the pitcher and catcher call their own game, and review the reasons why and approach. Have that JV core play off season or against other varsity teams. Let them scrimmage your varsity. These next few years are going to be a challenge for you. Some of those juniors and seniors, develop them in your program. I see way too many HS coaches that go through the motions of practice and fill out a lineup slip. Work your butts off. You may be surprised. Then come 2 years from now, see if you built 3 solid groups of players. Id rather have 1 solid team with the ability to have more than 1 good team, rather than bastardizing 3 groups of players. Sorry for the long rant, but there is a butterfly effect of moving players up through the levels.
fhobbs013 posted:I think what will help the most like what 2019 said being up front. I'm sending out emails this week to all players and parents of what I see their role this year and in the future. The first line of the email is "I think this will be the case but a lot changes from day to day so nothing is set but I wanted you all to know what we are thinking as of right now" I also tell all my parents and players that if they don't like the rule they have 3 choices to make. 1) Accept the role and perform in that role while working to get the role they want. 2) Quit the team or become a manager and support the school or join another group on campus. 3) Transfer to another school and I'll help them find the best fit but will be honest to another coach even if its a rival school (no free transfers but a lot of kids do "move" for "academic" reasons that just happen to play sports.
Are you guys already practicing? All we could do in the winter was throw/hit indoors and couldn't do that "officially" until Feb 1st. Everything else is considered "conditioning" or had to be done by the kids with no coaching involved. Personally I wouldn't consider giving out any info on what you think their roles may be....especially now. Why give parents/players extra time to be mad about it. Returning kids should have a pretty good idea already...if they worked hard over the summer that will show up once practice starts. I would think you are just setting yourself up for an extra couple months of grief by even discussing roles with parents at all...and not sure why you would think they deserve to know that info now. Players maybe...parents....not a chance.
As far as your 3 choices....again, just setting yourself up for a bunch of unwanted grief....I wouldn't consider that kind of thing under any circumstances. First of all, #1 is self explanatory...and falls under the "coach makes the decisions....not players/parents discussion that you shouldn't have to have by the time kids are in HS. #2 and #3 aren't something I would ever mention to a player or their parent. If a kid quits....I could see potentially offering #2 if the situation warrants it....but in no way would I EVER consider #3...that's not part of your coaching duties and just really don't see anything good ever coming from it.
Obviously these are your decisions....and maybe others will comment...but it just seems like you're giving way too much "pull" to the parents and kids by offering up so much information.
CaCO3Girl posted:At my sons high school there are certain knowns:
1. An 8th grader will not be permitted on the High School team. Yes it's allowed by GHSA rules but when you have 50+ kids trying out you pick from 9-12th. 8th grade will wait their turn.
2. NO 9th grader will make the varsity team, it doesn't matter how good you are. If you are truly spectacular at the end of JV you will be called up for the remainder of the Varsity season, which lasts about a month longer.
3. Seniors will be preferred over juniors, juniors over sophomores, sophomores over freshman. This is high school, specially it's their high school team. It's their picture in the year book, it's the people they have played with and against for most of their life, and for most it is the last team they will be on. The memories of the kids should trump the wins/losses statistic.
Create your own "KNOWNS" and you could create a winning culture.
If your coach isn’t interested in putting the best players, regardless of age, on the varsity squad - and in turn putting the best of those on the field, regardless of age - then you are playing daddyball. I have seen countless times at my son’s school where freshmen are not only ready for varsity but become key contributors as freshmen. You are either ready or not. Carrying a player because they are older but won’t help the team is senseless. That would be like saying Seth Beers should have sat his freshman year because he was a freshman, and that ain’t gonna happen. Play Rec League if who is in your team picture trumps competing at the highest level!
Lot of good points on both sides. I’m not a coach, but what “feels” right is to play the younger guys if the are equal to the upperclassmen. I can see having the upperclassmen build “their” program but the reality is they have had 1, 2 or three years to earn their position. If I have a freshman that is equal to that upperclassmen, I think I would give the nod to the younger guy simply because I will have him in my program for another 2-3 years. That seems to me how you build a winning program. I know there are a lot of variables, but that is how my brain works. I want the best 9 available on the field. I also believe in continuous, open competition. That’s what I would tell the entire team. Just because you didn’t start or play today has NO bearing on tomorrow. Show up and grind.
Buckeye 2015 posted:Just to clarify.....some places have 8th graders playing in the spring with HS? That's not done here in Ohio. What's the reasoning? We have junior high baseball in the spring (7th and 8th grade).....just like we do in every sport. 8th graders never play with HS kids.....heck, in Ohio they aren't even allowed to attend a HS practice even if they were good enough to.
Pennsylvania allows 7th and 8th graders to play varsity in small enrollment high schools where the school building is grades 7-12. These are typically rural schools in Pennsyltucky (What is the name of the state between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh?).
Coach_May posted:If you are a freshman and you are the best SS in our program you will be the SS. If you can't handle the pressure or your not quite ready you will go where you can play. If you are a Jr or Sr and you think you have graduated into a role you will learn very quickly you have thought wrong.If a Fr or So is on varsity they are playing a significant role or they are on JV where they can play a significant role. If a Jr or Sr is not capable of playing a significant role they won't be. I understand that others will do things differently. And that's fine by me. I believe that you earn it you don't inherit it.
This paragraph is perfect. If a HS coach can't commit to running a program that is about winning games, then he should be coaching rec ball. There is a reason they have league championships, district championships...and state championships. It's called competition! Funny thing is, when I was in HS this conversation would never have taken place....and wouldn't have had to. Kids and parents knew....if you wanted to play...you had better be good enough to play. When I was in 7th grade, my next door neighbor, and my dad's best friend was our Pony League baseball coach. I went out for the team...and got cut. Guess what...I lived, and my dad and the coach stayed friends. I wasn't good enough. Kids back then just dealt with it...and moved on. Nowadays if that happens, the entire neighborhood would know about it on Facebook by that afternoon...my dad would hate the guy who was his best friend yesterday and I would probably have a new X-box that my parents ran out and bought me to help me cope with the grief of being cut....lol. Congrats Coach May....keep up the good work!!
May I agree the playing time will be what you show us from now until the start of the game. We have had 4 or 5 kids decide they would be better fit at other places because they were told that being a Jr. or Sr. wouldn't guarantee time on the field. They looked at younger classes knew they would get beat out and decided that either they didn't want to be a part or wanted to go to another school. The entitlement has been very bad in our program and I had a parent tell me that because Player a's older brother played college ball and now player A is a jr that he should be the starting shortstop. That kid is still on the team but slowly distancing himself from the team and the parents have quit helping will fundraising. In all honesty he won't ever get many reps at the varsity level and may be one of those cut when the younger kids join us.
Buckeye we can practice for an hour and a half at the end of the day during our athletic period so it really helps. This time is divided between weight room, conditioning, and time on the field. #3 is just my way of saying if you don't like what we are doing then your welcome to leave and at the same time saying if you "move" and its not a legit move I'm going to know about it. #2 is just me saying I'm not going to be butt hurt because you choose to do something else and I'll help you if I can.
younggun posted:Lot of good points on both sides. I’m not a coach, but what “feels” right is to play the younger guys if the are equal to the upperclassmen. I can see having the upperclassmen build “their” program but the reality is they have had 1, 2 or three years to earn their position. If I have a freshman that is equal to that upperclassmen, I think I would give the nod to the younger guy simply because I will have him in my program for another 2-3 years. That seems to me how you build a winning program. I know there are a lot of variables, but that is how my brain works. I want the best 9 available on the field. I also believe in continuous, open competition. That’s what I would tell the entire team. Just because you didn’t start or play today has NO bearing on tomorrow. Show up and grind.
You are exactly right! And that is what SHOULD happen. Competitive people think just the way you described. What I have seen, however, is a shift in our culture in the way many people think about these kinds of issues. Far too many (kids and parents) view HS sports as an activity and not a competition. Furthermore, the parents believe that their child has the RIGHT to participate in whatever HS activity he/she chooses. For this kind of parent (and there are WAY too many of them) the threat of their child not being able to be on the HS "team" of his/her choosing may result in attempts to have a coach fired, threats of lawsuits, bullying of younger (more talented players), etc. These are all situations that I have personally witnessed during the 10 years that my 3 boys have been involved in HS sports. Couple that with HS coaches & HS administrators that cave in to that kind of pressure and then you have the reasons why what SHOULD happen often DOESN'T.
Buckeye I agree even 10 years ago this wasn't a conversation you had to have because everyone knew the best kids played and parents supported the coach unless the coach was hurting the kids in some way. I truly believe that parents are the ones afraid of competing and not the kids but the kids learn to be afraid because parents up until and now even in high school will move teams and even buy new houses to make sure their kid gets to play. Being a high school teacher and coach it really scares me for the future of the world
if you have 8th graders good enough to make Varsity it is about certain you aren't winning very much, at least in our area...it is extremely rare for a HS Freshman to play Varsity especially for a full season...I can think of 2, one was on the USA 18u national roster, is committed to top 10 program but most likely will be drafted...and a mid tier D1 pitcher who matured super early. I can think of one other who was late season call up and is also on a D1 roster today.
I have no doubt missing a few but again, teams that are playing multiple sophomores seldom reach the playoffs and seldom may be a hair generous.
ADBONO I agree and I think the only thing that can save a coach is to be 100% honest from day one. I've seen a lot of coaches tell a kid something that may or may not be true but then have to follow up on it and it cost them a season or a job because they unknowingly get caught up in the politics of parents who think they know more than a coach that sees their kid compete everyday on the field.
Old School the freshen playing for me this year fits the first one you described and you are right we will not be competitive like we should be until we have mostly Jrs. and Srs. in 7 or 8 of the 9 positions and a few older guys in the pen as well.
Chicago643 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:At my sons high school there are certain knowns:
1. An 8th grader will not be permitted on the High School team. Yes it's allowed by GHSA rules but when you have 50+ kids trying out you pick from 9-12th. 8th grade will wait their turn.
2. NO 9th grader will make the varsity team, it doesn't matter how good you are. If you are truly spectacular at the end of JV you will be called up for the remainder of the Varsity season, which lasts about a month longer.
3. Seniors will be preferred over juniors, juniors over sophomores, sophomores over freshman. This is high school, specially it's their high school team. It's their picture in the year book, it's the people they have played with and against for most of their life, and for most it is the last team they will be on. The memories of the kids should trump the wins/losses statistic.
Create your own "KNOWNS" and you could create a winning culture.
If your coach isn’t interested in putting the best players, regardless of age, on the varsity squad - and in turn putting the best of those on the field, regardless of age - then you are playing daddyball. I have seen countless times at my son’s school where freshmen are not only ready for varsity but become key contributors as freshmen. You are either ready or not. Carrying a player because they are older but won’t help the team is senseless. That would be like saying Seth Beers should have sat his freshman year because he was a freshman, and that ain’t gonna happen. Play Rec League if who is in your team picture trumps competing at the highest level!
Competition is fierce at my kids school, it is the largest division in GA and they had over 70 kids tryout last year but we don't have a 9th grade team. MANY decent travel ball players were cut. The HC won't play a senior guy who is a bumbling idiot, but we haven't had those because the training and commitment is intense. We did have 2 Juniors on JV but we also had two 10th graders started on Varsity last year, but when you have the two MIF's from one of the best travel teams in the country that is what you do, they still had to wait until they were in 10th.
HC doesn't play the seniors at all costs but he will keep a senior who isn't as good as he once was on the team with limited playing time and ask him to be a leader and a good example to the other players, rather than cut the guy who has played there for 3 years. When you have over 20 kids on a varsity roster you can have some compassion that this is THEIR senior year. There are things more important than winning....but they win their fair share.
There are a number of places where they play better baseball (California, Florida and Texas come to mind) and 70 players at tryouts is the norm in schools in the largest divisions. Freshman players can and do play varsity baseball on teams in those states and divisions, and there are a lot more elite travel teams in those states as well. It tells me that at least your son’s school gives the impression that everyone has a chance if that many kids are trying out, otherwise they wouldn’t bother. Seems like there is an opportunity being missed by not having a Freshman team, though.
I guess if that Jr on JV is getting a roster spot on Varsity over an equally skilled soph or Jr, I would have questions about that.
Chicago643 posted:There are a number of places where they play better baseball (California, Florida and Texas come to mind) and 70 players at tryouts is the norm in schools in the largest divisions. Freshman players can and do play varsity baseball on teams in those states and divisions, and there are a lot more elite travel teams in those states as well. It tells me that at least your son’s school gives the impression that everyone has a chance if that many kids are trying out, otherwise they wouldn’t bother. Seems like there is an opportunity being missed by not having a Freshman team, though.
I guess if that Jr on JV is getting a roster spot on Varsity over an equally skilled soph or Jr, I would have questions about that.
I can think of a Freshman player who started on Varsity in our division, but it hasn't happened in our school, he is the #1 ranked GA kid in the class of 2020 who looks and hits like a mack truck.
The 2 Juniors on JV, one was a LHP only throwing 75, so he was too good to throw away but not near good enough to be on Varsity. The other was a SS, who has since been offered a scholarship, but he couldn't compete with the 16u high level team MIF's, who were both committed to big time colleges in 10th grade.
Agreed, basketball and football have freshman teams but we only have one baseball field so no 9th grade team is available.