WIll
I agree-- I have seen it as many times as you--it is a shame that many coaches think that way--the senior has "paid his dues" so he starts, perhaps over an underclassman who is a better player
Personally I saw it with my son as a HS frosh--I didn't have a problem with it because I felt it better not to rush him anyway--but the coach told him that he wanted him to play JV as a frosh as he had a centerfielder who was a senior and he would be starting because he had earned it-- for my son it was ok and it did not hurt his progress, in fact it may have helped him as he tore up the JV level and came to the varsity at the end of the frosh year brimming with confidence.
Sometimes you may not agree with the logic but in the long run it pays dividends-- had my son been a sophomore I don't think coach would have done what he did but as a frosh it was in his mind the thing to do--- would it have all turned out the same for my son had he been on varsity as a frosh--WHO KNOWS ??-- but the logic of it all still makes me wonder becuase Coach didn't say " stay down and get the experience". It was simply he is a senior and he earned the spot--it had nothing to do with which player was better.
But, as I say it all worked out for the best. That senior never played baseball at the college level while my guy went on to have three great HS varsity seasons and play Division I baseball on scholarship.
TRhit
Trhit
Every circumstance is different. You really have to be careful at both ends. Sometimes you get a kid that comes to your school in 9th grade with all the reputation and hype from coaches he had before. It is a big jump. years ago I had a boy who came to our school. all i heard before he came was this kid is going to do this and do that. He will start for you as a freshman. I saw him and he had talent but in my opinion he was a year or more away. He was dissapointed. the people who coached him before disagreed. To make a long story short he played jv as a freshman . did extremely well.Started soph year on the varsity did well but there a few bumps in the road. he handled it well as a soph. Junior and senior year he really came into his own. Led the team to 2 post season tournament appearances. Received a D1 scholarship and was drafted. He signed a professional contract and is progressing well. I always look back and ask what would have happened if I as they say threw him to the wolves as a freshman and he got overwhelmed. It could have done a lot of harm. Maybe he would have done ok.You do not have the luxury of hindsight. He was a freshman and only going to get better. That had a great deal in my decision.
Every circumstance is different. You really have to be careful at both ends. Sometimes you get a kid that comes to your school in 9th grade with all the reputation and hype from coaches he had before. It is a big jump. years ago I had a boy who came to our school. all i heard before he came was this kid is going to do this and do that. He will start for you as a freshman. I saw him and he had talent but in my opinion he was a year or more away. He was dissapointed. the people who coached him before disagreed. To make a long story short he played jv as a freshman . did extremely well.Started soph year on the varsity did well but there a few bumps in the road. he handled it well as a soph. Junior and senior year he really came into his own. Led the team to 2 post season tournament appearances. Received a D1 scholarship and was drafted. He signed a professional contract and is progressing well. I always look back and ask what would have happened if I as they say threw him to the wolves as a freshman and he got overwhelmed. It could have done a lot of harm. Maybe he would have done ok.You do not have the luxury of hindsight. He was a freshman and only going to get better. That had a great deal in my decision.
I have to agree with the others on this one - if you haven't seen every practice or been able to judge every kid's work ethic on the field every day, you can't tell. I have players all the time that are good enough athletes to play, they simply are not good enough TEAM players to play. THEY think so, and so does daddy...but daddy is only daddy when the season starts.
I am certainly not suggesting that there are no politicians in the coaching fraternity...without question, some coaches lack the backbone to do what they know is ethically right. However, I also know that parents many times can't and don't want to see the truth.
If you ARE being faced with a "homer", I am sorry. I wish you all the best. Coach Knight
I am certainly not suggesting that there are no politicians in the coaching fraternity...without question, some coaches lack the backbone to do what they know is ethically right. However, I also know that parents many times can't and don't want to see the truth.
If you ARE being faced with a "homer", I am sorry. I wish you all the best. Coach Knight
When administrators and outsiders tell you what to do it is time to either give or do what you know is right. If they do not like it then too bad. It is easy to do what is right when everybody is looking
A litle late but was just reading these posts... Our school district has a no cut policy.. This year there are 13 seniors and 17 juniors trying out for varsity. Many have not played in 3 years of HS, specifically the senior quarterback from the football team. He is playing baseball this year because he knows he will not get cut and has another opportunuity for a varsity letter. How is this fair for anyone? We don't play the best players.There are younger players with more skills but won't have the chance to play varsity because we do not cut anyone. Last year there were 40 kids that played freshman ball. 5 or 6 knew they would be playing every game and then coach would fill in the rest on game day. Last years freshman coah is now the varsity coach. I'm not a complaining parent, just a frustrated one.
I thought favoritism was short changing one of my sons in two sports, football and baseball. In football, I was right, in baseball I was wrong. Having coached some, I new that an impartial parent was something I needed to be and just view things before saying anything.
In football it was a case of the coach playing the kids of the local families, while my son was a newcomer. As a junior, my son sat the bench in football and considered quitting near the end of the season because of it. I told him he had been there too long to quit now and to just hang in there, something might happen. Sure enough, some players got injured and he got inserted at linebacker as a starter. In the last 3 games he had 4 fumble recoveries and an interception. He was the leading tackler in two of the three games. Most of the parents sitting around me wondered why he hadn't been playing all year, but the coach was on his way out (parents were revolting before I got involved) because of his lack of effort. AS a senior, my son was all district.
In baseball, it was different. I looked at the kid ahead of him (catcher) and realized that although the other kid hit about the same, he also had a slightly better arm and MUCH better foot speed. My son ended up being the DH, hitting behind this kid, and hitting over .460 as a senior.
In other words, it happens, but not as often as parents think.
In football it was a case of the coach playing the kids of the local families, while my son was a newcomer. As a junior, my son sat the bench in football and considered quitting near the end of the season because of it. I told him he had been there too long to quit now and to just hang in there, something might happen. Sure enough, some players got injured and he got inserted at linebacker as a starter. In the last 3 games he had 4 fumble recoveries and an interception. He was the leading tackler in two of the three games. Most of the parents sitting around me wondered why he hadn't been playing all year, but the coach was on his way out (parents were revolting before I got involved) because of his lack of effort. AS a senior, my son was all district.
In baseball, it was different. I looked at the kid ahead of him (catcher) and realized that although the other kid hit about the same, he also had a slightly better arm and MUCH better foot speed. My son ended up being the DH, hitting behind this kid, and hitting over .460 as a senior.
In other words, it happens, but not as often as parents think.
Great thread
but politics only happen when coaches allow it-- stand tall from the start and it will be fine
TRhit
but politics only happen when coaches allow it-- stand tall from the start and it will be fine
TRhit
"Politics" will always be perceived. Sometimes accurately, sometimes not. Usually a little in the middle. It's hard to be totally objective, and assessing the relative skill of two or more baseball players has a large subjective component, which will tend to be affected by those elements we call "politics."
It's important for a coach to want to avoid indulging in it; it's important for parents to resist assuming that's why the team isn't being run the way they'd want it to be run.
D'oh!
It's important for a coach to want to avoid indulging in it; it's important for parents to resist assuming that's why the team isn't being run the way they'd want it to be run.
D'oh!
Will quotes:
Very powerful statement!
Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
quote:
It is easy to do what is right when everybody is looking
Very powerful statement!
Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
I wonder how much of what is perceived as politics in coaching is actually just differences in priorities? For instance some coaches focus on power, some coaches focus on speed and defense and some coaches focus entirely on pitching?
What we sometimes perceive as politics is often just the other guy doing a better job at public relations (note I said PR, not brown nosing). Having said that, I have also seen the 'senior' syndrome. Always a shame and the coaches who do it never seem to understand why their programs aren't as good as they could and should be.
When I have seen the 'senior' syndrome, I have never thought that the coach was trying to lose or play lesser players. For whatever reason, the coach honestly thought that playing the senior was the right thing to do. Given the disparity in talent between that senior and the more talented junior, soph or frosh, I sometimes wonder how the coach could believe that, but I have not doubted the coach's sincerity.
When I have seen the 'senior' syndrome, I have never thought that the coach was trying to lose or play lesser players. For whatever reason, the coach honestly thought that playing the senior was the right thing to do. Given the disparity in talent between that senior and the more talented junior, soph or frosh, I sometimes wonder how the coach could believe that, but I have not doubted the coach's sincerity.
by Cadad
at times during Ripken's 2632 game streak, he clearly should not have been in the lineup "based on his ability to perform" (health) -
ya calling that politics?? or priorities??
lefties? - - - they just aint right!
quote:
.... what is perceived as politics in coaching is actually just differences in priorities
at times during Ripken's 2632 game streak, he clearly should not have been in the lineup "based on his ability to perform" (health) -
ya calling that politics?? or priorities??
lefties? - - - they just aint right!
trhit you are right about standing tall from the beginning. but the perception will always be there. no matter what is done, there will be some parents that need an excuse or reason for why their son is not playing. politics is the easier explanation. my dad compared coaching to driving a manure wagon. when the road is smoot = you're okay. when you hit a few bumps, the slats fall off and the manure starts flying. thought this was a good analogy.
bee,
I'd call it marketing. Having Cal in the lineup helped sell tickets. Gee, maybe my son's hitting instructor would've gotten a few more innings if they'd have sat Ripken every now and then. Tough to be a SS playing behind Ripken before they moved him to 3rd. Of course he didn't have it much easier before that when he was playing behind Ozzie.
What I was trying to get across (not very well) was that parents base their assessments of players on what their son does well. If their son is a hitter then hitting is what determines who should be in the lineup. If their son has a blazing fastball then that's what determines who should pitch. If their son has great control that determines who should be pitching.
The coach on the other hand has developed his preferences over time based on what type of players he's had and what has helped him win. These will tend to be different from those of most of the team's parents and for that matter different from other coaches.
I'd call it marketing. Having Cal in the lineup helped sell tickets. Gee, maybe my son's hitting instructor would've gotten a few more innings if they'd have sat Ripken every now and then. Tough to be a SS playing behind Ripken before they moved him to 3rd. Of course he didn't have it much easier before that when he was playing behind Ozzie.
What I was trying to get across (not very well) was that parents base their assessments of players on what their son does well. If their son is a hitter then hitting is what determines who should be in the lineup. If their son has a blazing fastball then that's what determines who should pitch. If their son has great control that determines who should be pitching.
The coach on the other hand has developed his preferences over time based on what type of players he's had and what has helped him win. These will tend to be different from those of most of the team's parents and for that matter different from other coaches.
Sorpe, the problem is that what you may see as an obvious "talent disparity" others might see differently. I swear that at least twelve sets of parents on one team were convinced that the coach was a moron because their kid was "obviously" more talented than whoever he was starting. Do the math. They can't all be right. The problem is that there's really no "fair and objective" way to pit two players against each other and have "proof" that one is better. And in my experience on any given day one player may be better in one or mare facets of the game than another, "more talented" one. Over the years, I've found that I generally agreed with the decisions made by the local coaches. And when I didn't agree during the season, later events tended to prove me (not the coaches) wrong.
D'oh!
D'oh!
P-dog, of course you are generally right. I can't even sit with parents at high school games because of the many idotic comments they make. The instances that I was referring to, however, were pretty obvious (and did not involve my kids or anyone related to me) and the coach even said that he favored seniors. I did give him credit for honesty!
I used to coach a Baseball Academy travel team few years ago. I scheaduled my line-up according with the quality of the team against our team will play in order that all the players could have fair playing time and at bats. I was the only one to know wich the line-up be every day, that way all of the players show at the game. One of the reason to do this was that as members of a baseball academy they have to pay fees for tuition, tournaments, travel expenses, etc..and I agree all of them have the same rights to play, Other reason was that our goal was more development and teaching, that winning. Even so, lot of parents still complanning, comparing, coaching from the stands, and questioning my coaching abilities depending on the results of the plays I called. In conclution, this thinghs are part of baseball because baseball is part of life, and complanning it is very deep in human character.
So, I think that at least at LL, and HS baseball levels, some coaches's winning obsesion produces lot of situations that help to grow the problems. Because we humans are so selfish, we only understand what bad is be a benched senior when our son is the senior, we only believe that is perfectly normal that a freshman benched a senior when the freshman is our son. The problem it is not baseball, it is not the coach, it is not the parents, the problem it is all of us and our character.
"Peace is, the respect for the other people's rights".
Benito Juarez
So, I think that at least at LL, and HS baseball levels, some coaches's winning obsesion produces lot of situations that help to grow the problems. Because we humans are so selfish, we only understand what bad is be a benched senior when our son is the senior, we only believe that is perfectly normal that a freshman benched a senior when the freshman is our son. The problem it is not baseball, it is not the coach, it is not the parents, the problem it is all of us and our character.
"Peace is, the respect for the other people's rights".
Benito Juarez
Excellent post Racab.
In most cases, politics is in the mind of the beholder, especially in HS where the coaches job is on the line if he doesn't win. HS coaches usually don't have their kids on the team and have no connections to the kids that are. There are isolated cases where politics come into play, but it is usually a case where the coach has a limited time to view a lot of players and goes with names he knows when it gets to players of similar talent. My son has been cut three years in a row at basketball. Was he good enough to make the team? I think so, but he obviously didn't leave the same impression on the coach who had 2 hours to look at over 80 kids to fill 10 spots. Every year I told him I thought he should have made it, but that he needed to work harder and make himself the best player on the floor - the coach would have to notice him that way.
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Agent Dad
Refreshing post. I applaud your son for his tenacity. With what sometimes goes on today some parent might write or call the AD or principal to show his or her displeasure citing how his or her son or daughter was an All star here or there etc etc. You supported him by saying you thought he should have made it but it was not your decision as most things in life will be. I remember years ago my son was getting the short end of the stick. He thought he should be playing more etc etc. I thought so too but it was not my call. One time coming home from a game he was moaning and groaning to me. I pulled the car aside and told him that I did not have the answer to the situation and that if he wanted the answer talk to the coach. he might not like the answer but he would get one. Valuable lesson
Refreshing post. I applaud your son for his tenacity. With what sometimes goes on today some parent might write or call the AD or principal to show his or her displeasure citing how his or her son or daughter was an All star here or there etc etc. You supported him by saying you thought he should have made it but it was not your decision as most things in life will be. I remember years ago my son was getting the short end of the stick. He thought he should be playing more etc etc. I thought so too but it was not my call. One time coming home from a game he was moaning and groaning to me. I pulled the car aside and told him that I did not have the answer to the situation and that if he wanted the answer talk to the coach. he might not like the answer but he would get one. Valuable lesson
I have a question for a college coach. My son is on the baseball team at a large D-1 school.
He is a sophmore. Last year he he was the back-up for SS and 2nd base. One of the boys got hurt, and my son got the opportunity to play. He batted 615. during the 13 games he played. The player was better, and so my son was back on the bench. We expected that, that is not my concern. Since the Christmas break he is batting 500, the best average on the team. He is the third back-up on the same positions this year. I have always heard this particular coach picks his favorites, and there is nothing you can do. My son says it all has to do with how much $ they have invested in you. He doesn't get much $,but we surely didn't have any idea that would have anything to do with them playing. I assumed that if they proved themselves they would play. If your wondering about defense, he is a very solid defensive player also. I would appreciate if someone could explain how all of this works. I feels sorry for my son, he doesn't have to play baseball, it's just that I believe his spirt is broken. He said you can't imagine how it feels to be doing so good, and it's like it's not enough. The other players are telling him that I guess you have to bat 900. to play. My son told me that a lot of the coaches play their players like that. If they have $ invested in you, they give you all the chances, and will work with you to make sure you succeed. I thought it was about winning. I appreciate a little insight into this matter. Thanks
He is a sophmore. Last year he he was the back-up for SS and 2nd base. One of the boys got hurt, and my son got the opportunity to play. He batted 615. during the 13 games he played. The player was better, and so my son was back on the bench. We expected that, that is not my concern. Since the Christmas break he is batting 500, the best average on the team. He is the third back-up on the same positions this year. I have always heard this particular coach picks his favorites, and there is nothing you can do. My son says it all has to do with how much $ they have invested in you. He doesn't get much $,but we surely didn't have any idea that would have anything to do with them playing. I assumed that if they proved themselves they would play. If your wondering about defense, he is a very solid defensive player also. I would appreciate if someone could explain how all of this works. I feels sorry for my son, he doesn't have to play baseball, it's just that I believe his spirt is broken. He said you can't imagine how it feels to be doing so good, and it's like it's not enough. The other players are telling him that I guess you have to bat 900. to play. My son told me that a lot of the coaches play their players like that. If they have $ invested in you, they give you all the chances, and will work with you to make sure you succeed. I thought it was about winning. I appreciate a little insight into this matter. Thanks
quote:
Originally posted by bunt_it:
I have a question for a college coach. My son is on the baseball team at a large D-1 school.
He is a sophmore. Last year he he was the back-up for SS and 2nd base. One of the boys got hurt, and my son got the opportunity to play. He batted 615. during the 13 games he played. The player was better, and so my son was back on the bench. We expected that, that is not my concern. Since the Christmas break he is batting 500, the best average on the team. He is the third back-up on the same positions this year. I have always heard this particular coach picks his favorites, and there is nothing you can do. My son says it all has to do with how much $ they have invested in you. He doesn't get much $,but we surely didn't have any idea that would have anything to do with them playing. I assumed that if they proved themselves they would play. If your wondering about defense, he is a very solid defensive player also. I would appreciate if someone could explain how all of this works. I feel sorry for my son, he doesn't have to play baseball, it's just that I believe his spirt is broken. He said you can't imagine how it feels to be doing so good, and it's like it's not enough. The other players are telling him that I guess you have to bat 900. to play. My son told me that a lot of the coaches play their players like that. If they have $ invested in you, they give you all the chances, and will work with you to make sure you succeed. I thought it was about winning. I appreciate a little insight into this matter. Thanks
