I'm torn on this one. Trout is having an amazing year. He's the Ultimate Five Tool Player, and arguably the Best Defensive Centerfielder in baseball...not to mention,he's in my backyard in So Cal. With that said, if Cabrera finishes the 2012 season with the Triple Crown...you have to give him the MVP. It's going to be a tough decision either way.
Of the three, rbi, the youngest stat is 90 years old? Let us see if the other stats make it to 20 years before they are declared useless and are replaced.
Plus, it must be tough to do, when was the last one? 1967? It is a very, very rare thing and worthy of my vote every time.
Plus, it must be tough to do, when was the last one? 1967? It is a very, very rare thing and worthy of my vote every time.
quote:Plus, it must be tough to do, when was the last one? 1967? It is a very, very rare thing and worthy of my vote every time.
Trout- 30 HR, 48 SB. Only two players have eclipsed those numbers. Eric Davis in 1987 (37 HR, 50 SB), Barry Bonds in 1990 (33 HR, 52 SB). More rare than a Triple Crown, in fact. So, in comparing apples and oranges, Trout takes the cake there too.
Batting Average is not a good indicator of overall offensive performance because it pretends plate appearances that don't count as ABs don't exist. It also negates the impact a player has in terms of slugging and baserunner, two offensive factors. RBIs are not a good indicator of overall offensive performance because it is reliant on other players' performance, which, as I noted previously with my anti-playoff-MVP argument, cannot be directly correlated with a player's value to the team.
In order, I would rate the categories of the Triple Crown as follows in terms of importance:
1. Home Runs
2. RBIs
3. Batting Average
Home runs are important for obvious reasons. RBIs are important to a team because, yes, they generate runs. But there are many more offensive statistics that allow a team to better analyze run generation and appropriately coordinate a player's value than simply the runs he has batted in over the course of a season. For the most plain and simple example: Mike Trout is a lead-off hitter and therefore has less opportunities to drive in runs than Miguel Cabrera does. Batting average is absolutely irrelevant because, simply put, OPS is a better overall offensive production indicator.
Just because the Triple Crown categories have been deemed important in the past doesn't mean they're right. Just because Miguel Cabrera has a higher batting average, more RBIs and more home runs than Mike Trout doesn't make him a better hitter. The evidence is blatantly obvious.
I don't know how else to make this argument.
Mike Trout is the most valuable player in the American League in 2012, BY FAR.
By sheer luck runs scored could have been substituted for RBI's in the triple crown. They too, depend somewhat on other player's contributions. If a person has ever studied baseball history, they will find out that such terms as Triple Crown or Batting Champion were coined by some sports writer of years gone by and took on a greater importance than they truly have. RBI's and batting average are fun numbers to look at but that does not mean they define the most important offensive contributions that the Triple Crown would have you believe. Cabrera's triple crown is no different than about six or seven of Pujol's seasons yet at least Albert could run the bases and field his position.
I've noticed no one that picks Cabrera for MVP ever gives any concrete or arguable reason outside of the leadership in those three catagories and statements like " he's out there everyday producing, or teams fear him, or Detroit wouldn't be the same team without him". Show me something that proves he is the MVP over Trout, not obtuse statements.
I've noticed no one that picks Cabrera for MVP ever gives any concrete or arguable reason outside of the leadership in those three catagories and statements like " he's out there everyday producing, or teams fear him, or Detroit wouldn't be the same team without him". Show me something that proves he is the MVP over Trout, not obtuse statements.
Everybody has their opinion but to say this race shouldn't even be close when one is going to win the triple crown is just silly. 45 years since the last one and he shouldn't compete for the MVP? Really?
the writers will probably take the easy path and give Trout the rookie of the year and Cabrera the MVP... 1967 is probably too steep of a hill to deny.
but Trout, holy cow his season stands among an all-time season... I spose you gotta throw Barry B's best seasons out there to rival what this guy does for his team
happy October everyone... it's time for the party to begin!!!
but Trout, holy cow his season stands among an all-time season... I spose you gotta throw Barry B's best seasons out there to rival what this guy does for his team
happy October everyone... it's time for the party to begin!!!
THe votes are close so far in our poll, as I expect they will be when the BBWAA cast their votes. By the way, it only includes the regular season.
This particular award will be interesting because of the contrast between the two.
Trout - young, table setter, west coast team, speed, outfielder
Cabrera - mature, RBI guy, east coast team, power, infielder.
The only thing they have in common is that they are both good, and I can't fault anyone for voting for either one. I would vote for Cabrera. To lead the league in HR, RBI and Batting Avg is incredible. I look at this award as an offensive award. If there were a seperate "Best All Around Player" I would give it to Trout.
This particular award will be interesting because of the contrast between the two.
Trout - young, table setter, west coast team, speed, outfielder
Cabrera - mature, RBI guy, east coast team, power, infielder.
The only thing they have in common is that they are both good, and I can't fault anyone for voting for either one. I would vote for Cabrera. To lead the league in HR, RBI and Batting Avg is incredible. I look at this award as an offensive award. If there were a seperate "Best All Around Player" I would give it to Trout.
Trout singlehandedly bailed out Albert Puljolts by taking all the pressure off him because he was choking big time in the beginning of the year. A 20 yr old player has to be that valuable to have the kind if season to save the season of a future hall of famer. Not too many 20 yr olds have that kind of impact on a superstar player like that. Were it not for Trout, the Angels would've been toast before the all star break
Don't underestimate Cabrera's defense and base running. While he does not have great range, he does get to the ball better than most people will give him credit for. He also has good hands with a very strong/accurate throwing arm. He is actually very athletic for his size and has a high baseball IQ which helps him make-up for his lack of speed on the bases. "Baseball people" who watch him everyday appreciate him as more than just a hitter. He will also give you a productive at bat and hit behind the runner to try help his team score runs. Trout has had a great year...but it's one year...Miggy puts up these numbers EVERY year...He is the MVP and if he was playing in NY or LA nobody would question it.
You can't deny a Triple Crown winner as MVP. Trout will have an awesome career, starting with an incredibly well-deserved ROY. Plenty of time for his MVP accolades.
rebel- I'm a "baseball person" who has watched Miggy play a whole lot of games this year. Making the fundamental play is expected of a Major League player, and yes, he has the ability to make the fundamental play. But I would be very hesitant to say that he "gets to the ball" better than most people give him credit for. According to defensive metrics, he is the 131rd best fielder in the AL for players with over 500 plate appearances. For reference, there are 146 position players in the AL with over 500 plate appearances. That's the 10th percentile.
Having a high baseball IQ doesn't win you the MVP Award. Neither does winning the Triple Crown. Being the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER wins you the Most Valuable Player Award. And in 2012, there is no one that is even on the same planet as Mike Trout in terms of value. This MVP vote should be unanimous. Mike Trout is the MVP.
I'm no longer responding on this thread until anyone can come up with a valid reason for Miggy's deserving of the MVP. Obtuse responses that say "you have to give it to him because of the Triple Crown" or "his team made the playoffs" are not valid reasons to dub him the league's most valuable player. I have yet to see a single argument anywhere, whether its the HSBBWeb or anywhere else, that provides a valid argument why Cabrera deserves it over Trout.
Was 2012 a great offensive year for Miguel? Yes. A historic year. He is almost certainly the best hitter in the game right now. But he was not the most valuable player in the AL this year. Mike Trout was. This award is not for the "best player on playoff teams" or the "player that can drive in the runners that reached base before him" or the "best hitter in the league". This award is the Most Valuable Player. Mike Trout is just that. Plain and simple.
Having a high baseball IQ doesn't win you the MVP Award. Neither does winning the Triple Crown. Being the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER wins you the Most Valuable Player Award. And in 2012, there is no one that is even on the same planet as Mike Trout in terms of value. This MVP vote should be unanimous. Mike Trout is the MVP.
I'm no longer responding on this thread until anyone can come up with a valid reason for Miggy's deserving of the MVP. Obtuse responses that say "you have to give it to him because of the Triple Crown" or "his team made the playoffs" are not valid reasons to dub him the league's most valuable player. I have yet to see a single argument anywhere, whether its the HSBBWeb or anywhere else, that provides a valid argument why Cabrera deserves it over Trout.
Was 2012 a great offensive year for Miguel? Yes. A historic year. He is almost certainly the best hitter in the game right now. But he was not the most valuable player in the AL this year. Mike Trout was. This award is not for the "best player on playoff teams" or the "player that can drive in the runners that reached base before him" or the "best hitter in the league". This award is the Most Valuable Player. Mike Trout is just that. Plain and simple.
JH-"Fundamentally Speaking"...In my opinion...it is a heck of lot harder to field a ground ball and make an accurate throw than to catch a fly ball.
I am glad that you decided that you were "no longer responding on this thread until anyone can come up with a valid reason for Miggy's deserving of the MVP" because obviously your opinion is MORE VALUABLE than anyone else's. "Plain and simple."
I am glad that you decided that you were "no longer responding on this thread until anyone can come up with a valid reason for Miggy's deserving of the MVP" because obviously your opinion is MORE VALUABLE than anyone else's. "Plain and simple."
Zombywoof - Your Yankee "homerism" is shining through. If I was going to awared an MVP just among the Yankees, I'd have to give it to Hiroki Kuroda. He's been Mr Reliable for them this year in the games I've watched....and yes, I will catch a few innings of a Yankee game with the volume muted. Kuroda has been clutch in some big games.quote:zombywoof said...For MVP, it should be Rafael Soriano. He had to replace the greatest closer of all time and had the pressure to produce like Moe. He should get the MVP because without him, Yanks don't make playoffs.
Saw a funny "tweet" earlier that I'm going to borrow and relate here;
Among The "American" League MVP Candidates are Trout, Darvish & Cespedes. Interestingly, Cespedes is from Cuba, Darvish from Japan and Trout is from "another world!"
And, of course, Cabrera who wasn't mentioned but will likely win.
Among The "American" League MVP Candidates are Trout, Darvish & Cespedes. Interestingly, Cespedes is from Cuba, Darvish from Japan and Trout is from "another world!"
And, of course, Cabrera who wasn't mentioned but will likely win.
quote:Originally posted by fenwaysouth:Zombywoof - Your Yankee "homerism" is shining through. If I was going to awared an MVP just among the Yankees, I'd have to give it to Hiroki Kuroda. He's been Mr Reliable for them this year in the games I've watched....and yes, I will catch a few innings of a Yankee game with the volume muted. Kuroda has been clutch in some big games.quote:zombywoof said...For MVP, it should be Rafael Soriano. He had to replace the greatest closer of all time and had the pressure to produce like Moe. He should get the MVP because without him, Yanks don't make playoffs.
Kuroda has been very pedestrian the last month. He kept Yanks in games but mothing spectacular. He's been steady and keeping Yanks in ballgames but hardly spectacular. Soriano has had a bigger impact since getting promoted to closer
Since Cabrera's chances for winning the MVP is based on whether he gets the triple crown, it would stand to reason that if Hamilton out-homers him or Trout finishes with a higher BA, then the obvious choice would be Trout.
I'm pulling for Trout, but both he and Cabrera are deserving.
One thing that people don't seem to mention is the Prince Fielder affect on Cabrera. In 2011 Cabrera walked 108 times, this year 66 times. Not to mention the pitches he saw because of the bat behind him in the lineup. After all, Prince is hitting .313 this year with 30 HRs and 108 RBI. Makes you wonder what the numbers would look like if they flipped them two in the batting order.
BTW, if Cabrera wins the MVP award, this will be two years in row, two different leagues, two different teams, that the League MVP hit right before Prince in the batting order.
That said... I'm pulling for Trout!
One thing that people don't seem to mention is the Prince Fielder affect on Cabrera. In 2011 Cabrera walked 108 times, this year 66 times. Not to mention the pitches he saw because of the bat behind him in the lineup. After all, Prince is hitting .313 this year with 30 HRs and 108 RBI. Makes you wonder what the numbers would look like if they flipped them two in the batting order.
BTW, if Cabrera wins the MVP award, this will be two years in row, two different leagues, two different teams, that the League MVP hit right before Prince in the batting order.
That said... I'm pulling for Trout!
Cabrera - Count Prince Fielders #'s for him too since he moved to 3rd so they could sign him.
I'm a Tiger homer!!! I say Cabrera!!!
Because of the outdated way many people think about this, in general and on this board is why we have MVPs like Jeff Borroughs, Andre Dawson with his .315 OBP, and Morneau when he isn't even the most valuable player on his team when he won the award. It's always some slug of a first baseman, third baseman or broken down knees outfielder who leads the league in RBI's. Of course most of these guys do this by hitting a lot of HRs too. They can't do anything else that helps a team win but "sure are clutch hitters". Of course when you bat third or fourth on a team and have a guy or two hitting .300 in front of you, you seem to be more "clutch" that year also.
Most people would vote for Cabrera whether his lines were .329/.393/602 or .329/.339/.602 with the same 44-137-.329 that he has now because they don't dig deep enough to see that those numbers describe a very different player in overall value. They ignore that half the time he is on the field, he actually hurts his team. Actually anytime he is out of the batters box, he is nothing special. I will agree that he has assumed Pujols' mantel as the best hitter in the game but it isn't his RBI total that proves this. You need to go deeper than than a freak combination of two outdated stats and HRs.
Most people would vote for Cabrera whether his lines were .329/.393/602 or .329/.339/.602 with the same 44-137-.329 that he has now because they don't dig deep enough to see that those numbers describe a very different player in overall value. They ignore that half the time he is on the field, he actually hurts his team. Actually anytime he is out of the batters box, he is nothing special. I will agree that he has assumed Pujols' mantel as the best hitter in the game but it isn't his RBI total that proves this. You need to go deeper than than a freak combination of two outdated stats and HRs.