Pop time

Try http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/pro-scouting/scouting_catchers.htm

A good pop time is a combination of ability and several actions/skills that could never be described here. Different coachs have different approaches. A decent video is "Bob Bennett Catching Fundementals and Techniques" and a recent book I purchased "Baseball Coach's Survival Guide" by Weinsstein and Alston had very similar information. I liked the book. I believe Weinstein also has a catcher only video and book. I've been told by a few scouts that Bennett (Frenso State retired) and Weinstein (Cal Poly) are top catching coaches and I like their approach.

Rob,
It’s difficult to say where a player should be at a particular time because players develop at different times. It sounds as if your son is on track and I agree he should shoot for a 2.0 pop time. 2.0 to a catcher is much like the 90 mph fastball to the pitcher.
Let’s consider pop times as those times under “showcase” conditions, not game times. I think games times CAN be as good as showcase times but are not normally because of different variables.
For training I found the therabands to be an effective training aid in developing the strength for a good catching throw. Of course the all important long toss and throwing from the knees are good too. I always felt the rice bucket to be a good training device to develop hand and forearm strength necessary for good catching mechanics.
You should spend a lot of time working on your son’s mechanics. Ball transfer and footwork are KEY areas in reducing a catcher’s pop time. Here’s a link you might want to look over.
The Art of Catching

Best of luck to your son.
Fungo

Have to agree with Fungo here--foot work and mechanics are key in getting pop times down to the "magic" 2.0 second time

I also like the pop times in games and better even the end result of throwing out the runner trying to steal-- really doesn't matter what the pop times are for a catcher if he throws out runners and doesn't let anything get by him.

An interesting take on how one catcher see's it.

http://members.tripod.com/bb_catchers/catchers/skills_art_throw.htm

Mike Piazza says you have no chance unless you pre-load prior to the throw.

What he means is he comes out of his squat at the point that the base-runner breaks for second, catches the ball with his feet already aligned for the throw and is almost standing up as the ball hits his glove. He then is preloaded to the snap throw to the bag.

He has been measured at a 1.78

That would explain his phenominal success in spoiling the running game!

Orlando, they forgot to mention that his 1.78 was measured in 1994.

just proves that pop times can be misleading

quote:

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...Mike Piazza says you have no chance unless you pre-load prior to the throw.

What he means is he comes out of his squat at the point that the base-runner breaks for second, catches the ball with his feet already aligned for the throw and is almost standing up as the ball hits his glove. He then is preloaded to the snap throw to the bag.

He has been measured at a 1.78

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Well, well, well.........Here that Catching Coach????????????

All that and Piazza still can't throw out baserunners!

He almost has to do all that to be somewhat effective. But the guy sure can hit!

quote:

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Originally posted by Teacherman:

What he means is he comes out of his squat at the point that the base-runner breaks for second, catches the ball with his feet already aligned for the throw and is almost standing up as the ball hits his glove. He then is preloaded to the snap throw to the bag.

He has been measured at a 1.78

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Well, well, well.........Here that Catching Coach????????????[/QUOTE]

Teacherman...what's your point?? 1.78 glove to glove when you're already standing up?? Doesn't really impress me much. So much for keeping strikes looking like strikes. and he better hope the pitch doesn't need to be blocked or he's toast...since he's coming out of his crouch when the runner breaks he'll never have a chance to block the pitch it if it's in the dirt...and....and again I repeat that it is not very impressive at all if he can only throw 1.78 from a standing start...as Gloveman says..all that and he still doesn't throw out runners. For more on how dismal his throwing stats are follow the link to a excellent analysis of catchers throwing performance over the past 50 years. http://members.tripod.com/bb_catchers/catchers/thieves_smith.htm

Ill give some feedback that pertains to the origianl post. Avg Fresh catchers HS around 2.3 2.4. Your son around 2.3 2.4 thats about avg maybe a tad above for and 8th grader. Being accurate is very important which is obvious. One thing I do with my catchers is time from pop to release of ball. Then I time from release to pop at second. Lets say their release is .80 now they have something to shoot for as far as trying to have a quicker release. Foot work etc. My son is a Freshman and he is a catcher. He is 2.1 2.05 consistently. Every once in awhile hes 2.0. He has a very strong arm but what has made the biggest difference is his hard work on his footwork. His release time is around .68. But it doesnt matter how fast you get it down there if its not online.

Excuse me while I laugh my butt off!!! I'm sure someone, somewhere, timed Mike Piazza at a 1.78 but I would have to seriously question the accuracy of the watch or method of the timing considering Piazza has an average arm at best and below average footwork. A 1.78 pop time is in the Johnny Bench, Pudge Rodriguez category. I guess someone clocked Jamie Moyer at 97 on the gun too!!!

Speaking of pop times, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between times registered in a game and times registered in a workout setting. In tryout camps or workouts, catchers tend to cheat more and they KNOW they are about to make a throw to 2nd base for the watch. As a rule, I add at least a tenth of a second to the time, if not more, depending on the circumstances. For example, if a kid throws a 1.9 in a tryout camp, I figure he's closer to 2.00 to 2.05 in a game.

While I obviously haven't seen every throw by every catcher that has ever played in the big leagues, I have had the opportunity to get pop times on a lot of good ML catchers over the years, either as an amateur or in professional baseball, and the best I've had on my watch was Pudge at 1.83. The only other guys I've timed in game conditions under 1.9 were Charles Johnson, Ron Karkovice, and a journeyman named Alberto Castillo. I would say on average, most of the guys I've clocked were in the 1.95 to 2.05 range and I've even had a few that have thrown over 2.1.

Now in tryout camps, I'll get 1.8s (even high 1.7s) every once in a while and times in the 1.9 range on a consistent basis. But when you take into account the anticipation of the catcher, no hitter in the box, and the fact he has no consequences for throwing the ball away, you have to assume he won't be able to duplicate the same times in a real live game situation.

As for what is a good pop time for a particular age? That really depends on the projectability of the player in question. I could easily say that 2.1 is good for a 15-yrs old but if there isn't much projection in the body or throwing arm, he may never improve. Meanwhile, another 15-yrs old, may have a live body and an electric arm but lack the footwork and strength to throw better than 2.2 or 2.3, but has better future projection.

I'll leave it like this, if you have a young man who can throw under 2.1--with accuracy, can block and receive, knows how to run a game & handle a staff, and can work a count and make consistent contact at the plate, he'll probably play for a LOOOONG TIME!!!

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...In tryout camps or workouts, catchers tend to cheat more and they KNOW they are about to make a throw to 2nd base...

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I knew before every pitch that I was throwing to 2nd base......game or practice.

Can we say catcher interference when the hit and run is on?
Fungo

You won't understand if you don't try to understand.

Same as you can only see what you can see.

Teacherman

This is a new year so why not have a new demeanor

The old one is getting a bit stale. Can you say condescending ??

\

TR

This is a new year so why not stay out of discussions about which you know nothing and offer less.

Teacherman

I have told you before I probably know as much if not more than you--I just don't believe it can be taught on the internet--it gets done one on one otherwise things get lost in translation-- you have yet to show me what you have other than a terrbly condescending attitude and some knowledge--

I am not afraid to let people know who and what I am--why are you so afraid ??? what is to hide other than once off the internet you have to show your stuff--anyone can be a know it all on line

Matter of fact I saw your name in the Lst of Online Wards for 2004-- You were nominated for the POSTER WHO KNOWS IT ALL in any category with regard to youth baseball--you might even win

Holding up anything Piazza says about catcher's mechanics or defense? That's hardly indicative of an understanding of the position.

....unless you'd also like to hear Ankeil discuss accuracy or Zambrano on grace under pressure.

"And our next speaker here to talk about the art of stealing bases is ....Cecil Fielder"

man you guys are brutal - - I'm not wanting to argue, I could go home and do that - but then I'd just lose again

my 2 cents

I'd suggest on working on making the footwork, transfer, and throw as efficient as you can - breaking down your video and some teaching video - then adapt it to your catcher's - AGE, ARM, BODY, and ATHLETICSM - IMO you can hurt a guy if you try a cookie-cutter approach

some guys can make the throw short from their ear, others will need more arm - catcher's bodies are different as well

the mindset that "with EVERY pitch your catcher will be throwing to 2b" may be a good catch-phrase, but in a game the priority ought to be the "hitter", and if ya don't take care of business there, runners won't have to steal - because you'll either walk or drive them around with all those pitches your "catcher can handle"

or are some here referring to youth leagues where pitching machines are used?? it's hard to tell

Rob,
You having been a LHB catcher, your dad a LHB catcher and now your son a LHB catcher, you should know that base runners don't steal off of the catcher, they always steal off of the pitcher. (lol)
Having said that, I really wouldn't worry at all about pop times at your son's 8th grade level. If he catches a good game and throws out runners fairly regularly, he's fine. I know others will disagree with me, but I believe young players should just enjoy the game, not worry about the numbers other than the final score.
My son is also a LHB catcher. He never knew his pop time until people started to tell him around his junior year in high school. Believe me, he never dwelled on it. Good luck to your son.

NVR1:

Right you are, what was I thinking?

Stupid pitchers and their high leg kicks with men on base.

And you are also right - the proof is in the pudding. Pop time is not the test. Is he throwing out runners? The Mike Piazza exchange illustrated that question, didn't it?

And thanks... my son does indeed enjoy the game and especially the catcher position. He wants to get better and I want to help him, but focusing on isolated stats can be counterproductive.

Rob

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the mindset that "with EVERY pitch your catcher will be throwing to 2b" may be a good catch-phrase, but in a game the priority ought to be the "hitter", ...

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Some people can multi-task.........without anyone else knowing it. Therein lies the difference.

so teach, will you call a cb in the dirt with 2 out, 1 run up, & runners at 1rst & 3rd in late innings?? or does your catcher make the call?? or is it the coach (you), pitching??
just wondering, as it is not clear what age you refer to - - & it does make a difference for discussion's sake, well to me anyway

I would think the runner on third is the most important runner in the late innings of a 1 run game.

However, insinuating a pitcher doesn't appreciate a catchers ability to throw out a runner as compared to his ability to block balls is not accurate. There are many times that the risk of not blocking a ball is well worth the chance at throwing out a runner.

If the runner goes, and the ball is in the dirt he's going to get the base 90% of the time. If the ball is not blocked, unless the backstop is really deep, the runner has little to no chance at 3rd. Why? Because he goes in sliding at 2B and a hustling catcher can stop a runner from getting to third under those circumstances. (And the ss and 2b should help)

Therefore, the only disadvantage one can reasonably argue is getting strikes for your pitcher. And, I can know I'm going to throw before the pitch, move as soon as the ball is released (which is even earlier than Piazza says), and not block the umpire. Your words were "come out of the crouch". My words would be load the body with movement.

And on any individual pitch that I cost the pitcher a strike is way offset by the outs I get.

Risk/Benefit. Study it. Analyze it. You'll find you're on the wrong side again.

You always state your opinions assuming the worst. You have to weigh the risk/benefit.

I've caught professional pitchers, one a big league pitcher (when they were in college) who told me after their career that my ability to get outs at second was way more important to them than framing strikes.

Hes a catcher therefore his pop time is a gauge that he will be measured by. Yes it should be fun. Focusing on this stat is not counterproductive in my mind. He is in the 8th grade and will be in HS next year. It is important to see where you are at. How does he measure his progress if he has no idea where he is at? What does it hurt to put a stopwatch on him and find out what his pop time is? We clock game pops. If our guy throws a 2.1 and its not close then we know the pitcher is way too long to the plate. Like I posted before get his time from pop to release. Find out what his release time is. Then get his time from release to pop at second. Now work on the transfer and foot work and improve your release pop. That will take time off the pop. And work on arm strength and that will take time off the other end of the throw. Have fun I agree. But being in the game is a whole lot more fun than sitting on the bench. I believe that kids should have goals. Is it not important for kids to know what they are on a gun from the hill? Then they work their butts of and they see 3 or 4 mph improvement. Thats motivation and thats feedback. Whats the difference for a catcher? When my son was 2.4 in the 7th grade he had a goal to be 2.2. Last year as an 8th grader he was 2.2 and his goal was to be consistent 2.0. He is consistent 2.1 and has had some 2.0 throws. If gives them something to shoot for and gives them feedback. I think that is fun. Seeing all the hardwork pay off, seeing progress. Having goals and working to achieve them that is what its all about. Yes game pops and warm up pops will differ. Whats the point? Dont clock them because they dont matter unless they are in a game? If I see a kid throw a 2.0 in practice I know he has the potential to do it in a game. You continue to work on transfer footwork and arm strength and take it from there. But if a kid throws a 2.5 in practice I know he at his best is going to throw a 2.5 in a game and thats not going to get it. Therefore pop times are very important and getting a gauge on where you are at is very important.

Ivan Rodriguez - Defensive Stats as of 2003
Career POS - 14 years
G - 1,743
GS - 1.637
OUTS - 42,373
TC - 11,214
TC/G - 6.4
CH - 11,103
PO - 10,227
A - 876
E - 111
DP - 117
PB - 94
CASB - 260
CACS - 185
FLD% - .990
RF - 7.07
ZR

Mike Piazza Defensive Stats as of 2003
Career POS - 13 years
G - 1,545
GS - 1,472
OUTS - 37,626
TC - 10,996
TC/G - 7.1
CH - 10,874
PO - 10,179
A - 695
E - 122
DP - 125
PB - 92
CASB - 673
CACS - 189
FLD% - .989
RF - 7.80
ZR

Source: Baseball Almanac
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=piazzmi01

As you can see the defensive stats between Ivan Rodriquez and Mike Piazza are very close. Though the CASB and CACS are very different it shows that the AL and the NL are very different in the type of game that is played. The NL where Piazza plays does more running, that is confirmed if you look at other catchers stats in the NL in comparison to the AL stats for catchers.

Mike Piazza is a good catcher as is Ivan Rodriguez as their defensive stats show.

It is logical then to assume that their pop times would be very close also, otherwise they wouldn't be in MLB.

Those here who denigrate Mike Piazza show a lack of information in their claims.

As a Met fan and living in the NE where we see the METS, Bosox and Yankees on a regular basis let me say this about Piazza

He handles the pitchers well--never has a MET pitcher complained about hsi work behind the plate---he he excelelnt defensively--that being siad he has to have a mental block when it comes to throwing runner out when they attempt to steal--he has all the tools but as with certain players weird things occur-- AND you cannot argue about his bat--the bat overcomes any sins Piazza might have

Another aspect that hurts his rating behind the plate is that he is not "flashy" like Pudge is.

Would I want Piazza on my team YES== the same for Pudge

While you're comparing stats, you might also compare attempted steals on all NL catchers so that there would be no fudge-factor between the two leagues. Piazza has consistently allowed at least twice the runners to advance as a catcher one might hold up to young players as a model, such as Matheny or Ausmus. Considering they have a 1:5 chance of advancing, it's a wonder more don't try on Piazza, but his teammates had to cooperate, as that's not factoring in the first baseman having to position himself solely to thwart a potential base stealer rather than considering the overall situation.

Compare him to Pudge if you want, but both those catchers are overall 'flash', IMHO. Pudge's interview in SI a couple of years back where he admitted he never called his own games took a bit of shine off the old bronze statue for me.

I've heard Piazza-as-catcher defenders before maintaining that pitchers have never complained about his work behind the plate, and may have even complimented it. With respect, how many MLB pitchers have you heard complain about their catchers? (Heck, I didn't even hear a word about AJP from Giants pitchers last season, and I was appalled by some of his antics.) And didn't the second reel of Bull Durham teach you about baseball cliches and what to say in an interview regarding your teammates?

Piazza provides serious O, and I'm sure his pitchers appreciate that. That makes him a star hitter, but it doesn't make him a star catcher. If he's behind the plate, or on any old tapes of him, check out the footwork. Check out his balance on plays at the plate. Do you know that the pitchers are comfortable throwing all their pitches in any situation with him back there?

If you want to talk about MLB catchers that young players should emulate and listen to for defensive and pitcher-handling purposes, Piazza would never make my list. I would refer them, again, to Matheny and Ausmus.

And I would suggest that those who hold up Piazza as a defensive catcher haven't been paying attention during the games.

Orlando

I respectfully disagree with regard to Piazza

He is a fine defensive catcher and handler of pitchers--he just cannot throw base stealers out on a high percentage-- but there is more to being a good catcher than just throwing out would be base stealers

Bottom line--Piazza can play for me--he brings a lot to the plate as does Pudge