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The more I watch catchers with "2.0" pop times the more I call BS.  I saw one from an "elite" program (who is a "must follow" "top prospect") who was essentially standing up when he caught the ball to throw down.  Yah, it was 2.0, but lets see you do it in a game.  The number is great, but really the technique is important as it has to reflect reality.   

Originally Posted by Golfman25:

The more I watch catchers with "2.0" pop times the more I call BS.  I saw one from an "elite" program (who is a "must follow" "top prospect") who was essentially standing up when he caught the ball to throw down.  Yah, it was 2.0, but lets see you do it in a game.  The number is great, but really the technique is important as it has to reflect reality.   

I wonder how many players are really 1-3" shorter than their reported heights?  

Originally Posted by Golfman25:

The more I watch catchers with "2.0" pop times the more I call BS.  I saw one from an "elite" program (who is a "must follow" "top prospect") who was essentially standing up when he caught the ball to throw down.  Yah, it was 2.0, but lets see you do it in a game.  The number is great, but really the technique is important as it has to reflect reality.   

I have seen quite a few HS players sub 2.0 even sub 1.9 but those are usually their best time in the series of throws and not all cheat. Yes they are anticipating and usually getting a good pitch to handle. 

Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by 2forU:

       
Originally Posted by standballdad:
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:

I think the only thing this thread has proven is that catchers at showcases act very differently than catchers in a game, it's almost like they have to have two different sets of catching skills.

 

Badaboom Badabing!

 

And yes Stats, the age old question in both pitchers and catchers seems to be accuracy vs. speed of throw, which is more key. As 2020dad pointed out the player that makes it needs to be able to do both, or give off the illusion that accuracy can be achieved, but velocity has to be there to start with.

 

If it really is all about arm strength, and I believe it is, as it pertains to catchers, why bother with the pop-2-pops? Just gun them and don’t worry about anything else. Seriously. No one cares if a P or C can call a game because the coaches are sending in the signs. I’ve heard the “you can teach them how to pitch but you can’t teach velocity” for a loooooong time now, but I sure see a lot of pitchers who can’t pitch very well, and a lot of catchers who can’t catch cold. So if it’s such an easy thing to teach mechanics, why are they still having to be taught by the time the players get to the pros?

 

Why keep allowing the illusion that anything other than velocity makes and difference? Save a lot of time and resources and just measure every player’s arm strength and only allow the top one’s to move to the next level.

Kinda of what is happening

I agree, this is happening.  Who needs blocking and framing. Late is late, but playing catch with your outfielders is for warm-ups.  I've seen lots of catchers who can be taught how to block and frame, but it's not ingrained anywhere, not a natural move for them, and they can't no matter how hard they try. Ball velocity keeps them in the game, missing blocks, throwing the ball to the OF, losing games, giving up bases.  When asked why did we choose that kid, the answer keeps them in their current job - the kid had an arm.


       
What level are you talking about?  I am pretty sure major D1 and professional levels the catchers do both.  Then it becomes a matter of degrees of who is better from there.    Ability (velocity) first intangibles only after ability.

Visiting team at the Univ of MD this past summer.  Visiting catcher could not block the sun. Had a good arm. 

If you have not been schooled on blocking, worked hard and made it a priority to block everything your entire catching career, worked on pitch recognition and quick decision making, you will not be able to react and block 88+mph pitching.  Whatever happens in your brain synapses just is not there.  You may get lucky, but having the ball bounce and hit you (while you make no effort to block) does not count.  The guys that can are obvious as are the guys that cant.

Last edited by 2forU

I disagree with most of the opinion on here regarding arm strength and pop time as being the only carrying skill in college. Again, my experience as a travel coach and college coach is the exact opposite.  College coaches need a kid behind the plate who can handle a pitching staff.  There is nothing more frustrating to a college coach than a catcher who cannot catch (except maybe a pitcher who can't throw strikes).

 

A big arm that cannot receive or block becomes a corner INF or even corner OF if he can run.  

 

Skills that can't be taught such as arm strength, hitting with power and running speed catch a coach's eye.  A kid who throws 85 to 2B on a pop time will garner a lot of attention and may help him earn a scholarship.  His ability to handle the staff will get him on the field.  Otherwise, he finds another position or becomes a 4 year bullpen catcher.

 

Last edited by redbird5

The actual “pop time” is the most over rated statistic when evaluating a catcher’s skill set.  I want to know their velo. Are they throwing 85 or 75 from behind the plate? Whether it is their footwork, receiving or transfer these can be tweaked to increase time as well as the accuracy.

Many time bases are stolen on the pitcher.  The release, wind up, type of pitch being thrown all come into play.  Catchers don’t control that. Stealing bases are part of the game but there are many other aspects that a catcher needs.  Can they receive, block control the game? These are the things that will more often come into play during a game.

All these 1.7-1.8 pop times do not happen in game situation.  If a catcher can be 2.0- 2.05 on the bag then they will get the job done.  If the guy with the 1.8 can’t find the bag he is no different than the 6.3s 60yd guy who can’t get on 1st to even steal 2nd.

I would like to survey the pitchers on a given team. Ask them who they would rather catcher their game.  The guy who can frame and block (which make them look good) or the guy who can throw out a couple of runners during a game?

Originally Posted by JABMK:

The actual “pop time” is the most over rated statistic when evaluating a catcher’s skill set.  I want to know their velo. Are they throwing 85 or 75 from behind the plate? Whether it is their footwork, receiving or transfer these can be tweaked to increase time as well as the accuracy.

Many time bases are stolen on the pitcher.  The release, wind up, type of pitch being thrown all come into play.  Catchers don’t control that. Stealing bases are part of the game but there are many other aspects that a catcher needs.  Can they receive, block control the game? These are the things that will more often come into play during a game.

All these 1.7-1.8 pop times do not happen in game situation.  If a catcher can be 2.0- 2.05 on the bag then they will get the job done.  If the guy with the 1.8 can’t find the bag he is no different than the 6.3s 60yd guy who can’t get on 1st to even steal 2nd.

I would like to survey the pitchers on a given team. Ask them who they would rather catcher their game.  The guy who can frame and block (which make them look good) or the guy who can throw out a couple of runners during a game?

Don't forget a shortstop who can actually catch the ball too.  My kid saw way too many dropped this year.  At times he wanted to walk out there and kick the kid in the noots. 

Originally Posted by Golfman25:

Don't forget a shortstop who can actually catch the ball too.  My kid saw way too many dropped this year.  At times he wanted to walk out there and kick the kid in the noots. 

 

I always find it amusing to hear stories like that. I do hear talk about a fielder receiving a throw “poorly”, but I often hear pitchers and their parents saying similar things about catchers in relation to ball getting to the backstop. What I find amusing is, very often what took place isn’t their fault, and almost never is scored as an error.

 

That’s one reason why I track so many things.

Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:

       

Originally Posted by Golfman25:

Don't forget a shortstop who can actually catch the ball too.  My kid saw way too many dropped this year.  At times he wanted to walk out there and kick the kid in the noots. 

 

I always find it amusing to hear stories like that. I do hear talk about a fielder receiving a throw “poorly”, but I often hear pitchers and their parents saying similar things about catchers in relation to ball getting to the backstop. What I find amusing is, very often what took place isn’t their fault, and almost never is scored as an error.

 

That’s one reason why I track so many things.


       

On my son's HS team the coaches 5'-6" son played SS all four years on varsity.  Even made all district at the position his senior year. He probably was the slowest on the team and one hopped half the balls into 1B.  Truly comical

FWIW, we have seen more than a dozen Major League catchers when they were in high school.

 

Perhaps the best we saw was Yasmani Grandal.  At 5 separate events his best pop time was between 1.78 and 1.83. Arm velocity between 81-84.  His PG profile actually has video.

 

Other good ones included Buster Posey, Matt Wieters, Brian McCann, and several others catching in the Big Leagues right now.

 

Of course, we never got Buster as a catcher.  He was one of the best shortstops and pitchers in the country as a HS kid.  93 from the mound, 89 across the infield.

 

Bryce Harper on the other hand was a catcher in HS,  There is a video somewhere where he threw out a runner in the Aflac All American game.  I will only say, it was amazing, one of the very best throws I have ever seen from a catcher at any level.  You might be able to google and find it.

 

Anyhow, the one thing all these catchers had in common is arm strength. Most also had very quick feet and good hands behind the plate. Wieters was a mid 90s pitcher in high school. And these days they look for catchers that can hit.

 

If a catcher has a strong arm, quick feet, and good quick hands. If he is tough and intelligent.  Things like framing, blocking, etc., can be taught and developed.  And yes, the most important part of catching is receiving the baseball.  However you could be the best at just receiving the ball, but if you have a weak arm or slow feet and hands, you can only go so far as a catcher.

Yes PGStaff....they did have some arm velo.  I don't think McCann could be considered a good MLB catcher. McCann's caught stealing percentage is about 25% (career) and Grandal last year was about 13.  Compared them to the premier guy in Yadier Molina with 44% caught stealing %.  The better catcher is the league are in the 30's%.

 

I am sure those named catchers had the catching tools but it safe to say they all could flat out hit for power!  I guess a little defense can be forgiven as long as you can MASH like the guys you just mentioned!

 

 

Another point that receiving, blocking and calling a game is important and some may think more important than throwing out runners. Two examples are David Ross and Jason Varatek. Both catcher had/have 25% caught stealing percentages, were decent hitters but playing/played while in their 40's because pitchers love them.  If they didn't have their framing, blocking and game calling skills they would not have had long careers.

 

If the reverse and a catcher's caught stealing percentage was 35% and was a decent hitter, pitcher didn't like them or couldn't frame, block etc. they would not last long.  

 

Last edited by JABMK
Originally Posted by JABMK:

Another point that receiving, blocking and calling a game is important and some may think more important than throwing out runners. Two examples are David Ross and Jason Varatek. Both catcher had/have 25% caught stealing percentages, were decent hitters but playing/played while in their 40's because pitchers love them.  If they didn't have their framing, blocking and game calling skills they would not have had long careers.

 

If the reverse and a catcher's caught stealing percentage was 35% and was a decent hitter, pitcher didn't like them or couldn't frame, block etc. they would not last long.  

 

Interesting you bring up David Ross.  With Kyle Schwarber in the picture -- experts say he can't really catch.  But he did have the sub 2.0 pop and spent years at IU catching.  In his case, mashing definitely seems to help. 

 

Ross can pitch too. 

Probably doesn't make sense to compare many that are still playing to Molina.  The point is these are all Major League catchers.  Jason Varatek and David Ross we didn't see in HS, but I'm going to bet they were outstanding hitters.  Did see Buster Posey in high school, very good hitter, but never would have guessed he would hit for any power in the Big Leagues.

 

To be a catcher in the Big Leagues, you absolutely have to have a strong arm.  It's not a matter of what skill is most important.  The other skills don't matter if you can't throw because you will not be catching In the Big Leagues.   Of course that is not to say all those ML catchers have equal throwing ability. Obviously some are better than others.

Originally Posted by PGStaff:

Probably doesn't make sense to compare many that are still playing to Molina.  The point is these are all Major League catchers.  Jason Varatek and David Ross we didn't see in HS, but I'm going to bet they were outstanding hitters.  Did see Buster Posey in high school, very good hitter, but never would have guessed he would hit for any power in the Big Leagues.

 

To be a catcher in the Big Leagues, you absolutely have to have a strong arm.  It's not a matter of what skill is most important.  The other skills don't matter if you can't throw because you will not be catching In the Big Leagues.   Of course that is not to say all those ML catchers have equal throwing ability. Obviously some are better than others.

I agree Molina in a class of his own! I was not suggesting a comparison of Ross or Varatek.

Yes you 100% need a strong arm. A strong arm does not always relate to best pop time. Pop time was the original post and was trying to make the point that a player can succeed if they have an average to below average caught stealing percentage so as long as he has above average defensive skills like framing, blocking and game awareness. If you have good to above average caught stealing percentage and average to below average skills like framing, blocking and game awareness then the player has a less of a chance to make it at high levels.

Molina reportedly has trouble throwing out slow runners, even though the pitcher is throwing 95mph.  It's been said that that is due to the triangle controller button on the xbox 360 controller needing to be varied in a way the end user has issues with (MLB: The show).  You'd think Microsoft would give Molina a break like Nintendo did with Tecmo Bo (Bo Jackson ).

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