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I went ahead and signed up for the 3 month program and sent in some video of CASon that I had taken so I thought I’d post a review of what we’ve gotten out of it so far. So far I’m reasonably happy with the product but I think our situation is different from a lot of people’s so the goal here is not to make any recommendations one way or another but simply to present our experience so that others can be more informed in making their own decisions. First I’ll go over how we went about sending in the video and signing up and then I’ll review what we’ve gotten for our money so far.

I took some video of CASon from the side and from head on. I was only able to get 4 pitches from the side and 3 pitches head on while my son was working on location at the beginning of a pen when he was probably throwing only about 80-81. I hadn’t charged the camera properly and although I had planned to get some shots while he was throwing mid to upper 80s later in his pen I wasn’t able to get those shots. I had the camera in my hand rather than on a tripod. In other words, I made every mistake in the book. Unfortunately, that was my only chance to get any video of my son for quite a while so I called 3p up and asked if the video would do. They said to go ahead and sign up then send in the video and they’d look at it to see if it would work. They said that we could figure out what to do if they couldn’t do the biomechanical analysis from my video. After I paid, or after I called, I don't remember which, they sent a pdf file showing the proper way to do the video. Generally speaking they want you to do it from the correct angles and for the camera to be on a tripod. They also want the pitcher to be wearing relatively tight fitting clothes to make it easier to take measurements. We did almost none of that.

As it turned out they were unable to do the biomechanical analysis from the video I took. They said that the camera was moving too much. They also tried to use the baseballwebtv video that had been taken at a PG showcase but that was only from one angle. As far as I can tell they made a good faith effort to do the analysis and maybe a bit more.

They have examples of the measurements they take on their website and given that I wasn’t likely to get any more video of CASon for quite a while I went ahead and analyzed the video of CASon myself to get the measurements. I simply pasted the images of him at the proper points in the motion into Powerpoint and then used the drawing guides to measure distances and then calculated the angles. I was able to get all of the measurements. However, CASon was landing toe first rather than almost flat the way most pitchers do and it made it difficult to determine the point at which foot contact was occurring. I decided to use the point where his plant foot was almost completely down but the heel was just smidge above the ground. There’s a big difference between the measurements at that point and at the point where his toe first touches. Things are starting to move fast at that point in the motion. I’m not sure they would have been able to make the assumptions I did when trying to do the biomechanical analysis. I was able to do so because I knew what the effects of my assumptions were but it would have been irresponsible if they had made assumptions and then done the analysis without my knowing about the assumptions so I’m glad they didn’t try to.

I also did some research and was able to find the “ideal” ranges for the 14 parameters that they measure in the open literature. It wasn’t easy to find and when I did find it, the information was buried in a fairly technical paper on another subject so it was rather difficult to figure out. I wouldn’t recommend anyone without a technical background and a touch of obssessiveness trying the same approach. Once you pay for the service and send in the video, they've got an ftp site of sorts for uploading the video, or you can send in a CD, they post your pitcher's measurements and the images of your pitcher they used to take the measurements along with the “ideal” ranges that the measurements should be in for safety and velocity. In our case, of course the images and the measurements for CASon weren’t there but the explanations were.

They also provide a set of pitching drills and conditioning drills, along with a day by day schedule over a month showing which sets of drills to do each day and a bit of performance coaching including text, audio and a video clip each month. The drills are presented in professional quality video clips that are easy to follow. The drills are presented one month at a time so I’ve only seen the drills for the first month. The pitching drills are fairly basic which is appropriate for the first month and in our case these particular drills are quite applicable to what CASon needs to work on. Of course, I have no idea what the drills for the remaining months are like.

The next part in parentheses is a nit and most will want to just skip over it and go to the next paragraph. (There’s only one drill that I've seen that I have an issue with and that’s the very first and simplest one. It is the old standby, circle up until the elbow is bent 90 degrees and the palm/ball is facing back toward 2nd base. They even describe that turning 90 degrees from there will end up with the ball facing the plate. However, if you turn 90 degrees from that position the ball will be facing the dugout. Pitchers just don’t circle up with the ball/palm facing toward center when they reach the high cocked position. Almost all pitchers circle or bring the ball back such that the when the arm is extended behind them the palm is facing down. Then with the arm extended at roughly shoulder height and the palm facing down the elbow bends about 90 degrees with the palm still facing down and the pitcher scap loads at the same time. Getting the elbow bent 90 degrees while keeping the ball in line with the torso may even be the main reason why pitchers scap load whatever effect it may or may not have on velocity. Next as the hips begin to rotate the shoulder externally rotates in response to the hip rotation and the arm ends up with the elbow bent about 90 degrees with the fingers pointing toward the sky and the palm facing out toward about 3rd base (righties). This is the classic high cocked position and from there if a pitcher rotates to face the plate the ball will be facing the plate with the fingers and palm behind it. Every pitcher is a little different and there are even a few pitchers who have the ball facing back (fingers toward 2nd base, rhp palm toward first, lhp palm toward 3rd) when they start to scap load and bend their elbows. They're the ones who can end up with the inverted W.) -- See I warned you. Wink

So what do you get for your money? You get a biomechanical analysis with a set of 14 different measurements that are each compared to the normal ranges for elite (hard throwing) pitchers. You also get a description of each measurement and what being either below or above the range means relative to it’s effect on safety and velocity. You get a set of drills each month that should help a pitcher get and keep their measurements in the normal range. You get a conditioning program that should also help. You also get some performance coaching.

What don’t you get for your money? We didn’t actually get the biomechanical analysis, although we still could if I were to get some decent video, so it is possible that one gets something we didn’t get, but what you may not get is an explanation as to the root cause for why the pitcher is outside the normal ranges. This may shock you but we didn’t get a personal call from Rick Peterson explaining what was wrong with CASon’s mechanics. Smile In CASon’s case he was well within the norms for almost all the measurements, however because he was counter rotating to an excess and landing toe first he was externally rotating far too soon in his motion which threw one or two measurements outside the normal ranges and more importantly was causing him to be way out of sync with his arm reaching maximum external rotation well before his hips and torso were done rotating and he was squared up with the plate. Now it is possible that some of the drills would have helped with this problem but I think that knowing what the root cause is will allow him to understand why he’s doing the drills and will therefore make it far more likely that the drills will have the desired effect. I think CASon has finally realized that despite the seldom realized potential for a bit more velocity that there's a reason why very few pitchers counter rotate and of those who do most return to having their shoulders in line with the plate pretty early in the motion.

On the other hand if a pitcher was to do all the drills and commit to making their motion match the drills then they would probably work quite well without having to understand what the root cause of the problem was.

All in all I think they deliver what they say they’ll deliver, it is a quality product and as long as the purchaser doesn’t have unrealistic expectations then you’ll get what you pay for and each family has to decide if it is right for them.
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CADad, appreciate the post.. but it seems like a lot of analysis for something so simple.

Don't mean to sound condenscending, but pitching should be simpler than this. It should come natural. This seems like paralysis by analysis. Talent + a good long toss program + top-notch pitching instruction is all you need.
Last edited by Bum
quote:
I am with you Bum, it shouldn't be all that complicated.
Keep it simple, that usually works for most.


That's easy for you to say, coming from the Mom of one of the most fluid pitchers I think I have ever seen… Mrs. T….P…M....

I agree with you and BUM, however there are times when slow motion video should be used to look at the finer details of the mechanics for both pitching and hitting. Not only is it useful for the analysis, but maybe even more important to be able to sit down with a student and look at his mechanics side by side and discuss the details with the coach. Which is why I am a little suspect of doing it with a “company” not a coach who is right there.
My experience is that different people learn differently. My son has always had a tendency to take things a bit too literally and eventually overdo a good thing. When he took hitting lessons and the instructor used the cue of throwing his hands at the ball it helped. A week or two later he was so far out in front of the ball it was...etc, etc.

We were able to take some video this weekend to send in and while I was looking at that I was able to see in slow motion what simply looked like "something isn't right" in real time. It turns out that just after starting forward he was sitting on his post leg for around 1/4 to 1/3 of a second. However, everything else was continuing and the lower part of his post leg was virtually straight up and down as seen from a side view at a point in his motion where his arms and stride leg were almost completely extended. So he either needs to go forward from the balance point or sooner like the vast majority of pitchers or he needs to do like Papelbon does and sit while keeping everything back then drive forward low to the ground.

I looked back at some of the baseballwebtv stuff that was taken at showcases and at the couple of showcases where he did fairly well there were hints of doing this but it wasn't significant. At his last showcase where he did poorly from a velocity standpoint and felt out of sync it was very obvious.

BTW, interesting that you mentioned TPM's son. Given that he tends to stand relatively tall and there are some other features of his motion that are similar to my son I used a picture of his motion as an example for my son. At the same point in their motions that the lower part of my son's back leg was rotated less than 10 degrees forward, DK's lower back leg was rotated about 34 degrees forward.

The problem came up while he wasn't seeing an instructor as he was recovering from an injury and we didn't want him doing anything more than the throwing for the HS.

Bum,
Top notch pitching instruction and the time to avail oneself of it isn't always easy to find, but that would always be the preferred approach. BTW, they set it up so you can share the stuff with any coaches you want to. CASon's last pitching instructor was pretty good but he didn't focus on mechanics and he certainly didn't do any video analysis. I do attribute CASon's best showcase performance at least in part to that instructor's influence and even though he seldom if ever discussed mechanics it was easy to see that was the point at which CASon's mechanics were the cleanest.
Last edited by CADad
The one thing to keep in mind is that the people involved in this "technical" stuff are among the foremost experts in the world when it comes to pitching and physical science. One of the main purposes, along with reaching potential, is to locate red flags within the delivery that can cause injury. I do think the proper video is necessary to get the most out of it.

BTW, Scott Kazmir didn't keep it simple... He went this exact route this year. His fastball had gone from mid 90s to 88 and he was experiencing arm problems. Now he is back to throwing in the mid 90s.

There's nothing wrong with keeping things simple, but there is nothing simple about TJ or Labrum surgery. There's nothing simple about reaching one's full potential either. Sometimes what we see as being complex is actually very simple to those who know what they are doing or what they are seeing. The technology is mostly just high speed video taken from the correct angles. The actual solutions can be very simple for the pitcher. In fact, it makes things easier for the pitcher.

So IMO this new technology and the indisputable experts involved, actually end up making things very simple. It only sounds complicated. Years ago video wasn't even available for baseball players. There's no question that video has helped many, but I'm sure in the beginning people were saying that players should keep it simple rather than be confused by looking at video.

I'm actually a big proponent of most all the video based things like Right View Pro and many others. That stuff really helps! It doesn't make things more difficult, it makes things easier and better for the athletes.
PG,
I read that Kazmir went to the ASMI institute to get the measurements. Some were out of normal ranges so he went to Peterson for the analysis and to get help doing the drills.

BTW, IMO, keeping it simple means keeping the explanations, drills and fixes simple so that they can actually be implemented. Sometimes a complicated analysis can result in a simple fix.
Last edited by CADad
CADad,
Correct on Kazmir
quote:
BTW, IMO, keeping it simple means keeping the explanations, drills and fixes simple so that they can actually be implemented. Sometimes a complicated analysis can result in a simple fix.

Couldn't have said it any better! Technology is a good thing (IMO) and often it is far from simple. But when you combine technology with experts that understand what they are looking for it can produce better results. In the end it becomes simple to the pitcher. The pitcher doesn't have to analize things, others do that part.

Often people see these things as some kind of cloning... Taking the natural ability aspect out of things. I'm a big believer in utilizing what comes natural and absolutely hate cloning athletes. However, there are certain things that nearly every top athlete that is successful and healthy do pretty much exactly the same. Those things are important! Just as the differences from one pitcher to the next can be important.

Every sprinter that runs world class times will do some things the same. Not all things but some things. To simplify... we know that they all run facing the target... There has been no sprinting records broken by someone running backwards. Obviously that is a rediculous comparison, but it is easy to understand. On a more complicated note, there are much smaller details that can have a positive or negative influence on performance. Every good instructor understands that. Eliminating technology is ignoring the obvious. It allows people to see things that can't always be recognized by the human eye.
With the technology available today, it would be foolish to not use it, however you need to find the right coach that understands the tools and can use them effectively. At the MLB level all clubs use video, at the college level many, and in HS very few, if any. Finding a coach who is familiar with them and can implement them into a program is difficult and I can see why 3P Sports are doing what they are doing. However I would prefer a local coach who can sit down and go over the video week in and week out, over a longer period of time than a “one time send in and get a report back”. This obviously has value, and Pro’s can afford to go to their clinic and get personalized service but for the average guy it may be difficult.

Given the choice I think that local personalized learning is more effective, however given how difficult it is to find these coaches I can see people using their service like CADad did. He in effect is his son’s head pitching coach and understands this stuff and can help him analyze the report, many others can’t. I also wonder if his son is going to listen to him Wink (some personal experience here) and I think it might be could have been more effective if he could have found a local guy to help him. Knowing his situation, this is not possible right now so I think the 3P program worked for him.

Not to say that it can’t be done without video analysis, but from personal experience it is much more effective using video. If you can find a good local coach then go that way and if not then consider someone like 3P.
Last edited by BOF
We were able to send in some video and we've gotten the results back. I'll try to give the results without being too specific.

Balance Phase - Seems OK
Stride Length - toward the long side of normal range, but he's got long legs for his height
Lead knee angle - 2 or 3 degrees more bent than the end of the range. (He's coming down instead of down and out with his stride foot as he lands.)
Lead foot placement - a few inches too open
Lead foot orientation - well outside range but hard to interpret, think it is too open.
Upper Trunk Position - normal, i.e. he's not flying open.
Shoulder External Rotation - Out of range, happened way too soon.
Arm position at foot contact - A little low, may be due to being too early with external rotation?
Elbow angle at foot contact - normal
max external rotation - low end of normal, but actual max rotation happens at earlier point than when measurement taken and is 10 to 15 degrees more. We need to get max rotation happening at this point when he's square to the plate instead of too early.
Lead knee angle at ball release - normal
trunk tilt forward at ball release - low end of normal (more tilt tends to mean more velocity)
Lateral Trunk tilt at ball release - normal for a 3/4 guy
Arm position at ball release - normal

What does it all mean? He's out of sync for the reasons noted in an earlier post and needs to get back in sync by going forward sooner. There's more than one way to do that and we'll see what he's chosen to do when he throws a light pen later today and go from there. If he does get in sync it should result in a longer stride and more trunk tilt at release which may result in a bit more velocity although it could simply mean getting the same but more consistent velocity with less stress. Once we've got him more in sync we'll try to get his landing a few inches more closed.
Last edited by CADad

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