prep players needing TJ surgery

Probably a bit more now as more kids throw harder, but it is nothing new.

How common is this for catchers?

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Probably a bit more now as more kids throw harder, but it is nothing new.

Kids threw hard when son was in HS, but I never heard of half the TJS then as I do now (for highschools players). Same with shoulder injuries. Kids play more than they did back then. There is so much good information out there, not sure it's being used.

I think that there is a new mindset, if he gets hurt, we'll fix it. Before when you got hurt, you just stopped playing.

Injuries happen, the object is to get where you want to go before it happens. I don't care what throwing program you use, how well one conditions, proper mechanics, overuse is the culprit.

quote:

Originally posted by playfair:
How common is this for catchers?

It happens but you'll find catchers have more shoulder issues than bad elbows, only because they do not throw the stuff that pitchers do. They many have been pitchers when younger.

Catchers are still subject to over use. How many times have you seen catchers take off their gear and then pitch?

JMO.

My son 17 will be having this surgery on 5/6. I'm at a loss as to what to say, never any pain in elbow, nothing. I just feel terrible and we can't explain it. He wasn't over used, they did tubing before every game, long toss, etc.

quote:

tpm quote:
Kids threw hard when son was in HS, but I never heard of half the TJS then as I do now (for highschools players).

Besides the National press that is available now, the increased focus on tj injuries, I doubt that you or many others paid as much attention 5+ years ago to the "going-ons" of the National HS baseball injury scene.

I'm sure it's it's more prevalent now but many times careers were over before HS tj surgery became common place.

It was in Bailey's report that the injury happened while "doing rare duty on the mound".

I had the opportunity to watch him at the Metrodome this last summer (Bailey is a catcher and my son is too).

Of all the catchers there Bailey was a real standout. It is just a drag for him, 12-14 months out is a long time.

BTW, my own kid is a primary catcher, but will take the gear off and close a game occasionally. And that is not uncommon out here.

But the Bailey thing is a reality slap for me as a parent.

I did post that most likely many stopped playing or pitching before the popularity and success of the operation, but that doesn't eliminate one from paying attention. Most of the players I know who son played with, who had the surgery, was in college or proball, not in HS. In most cases, it was from early use of off speed pitches (CB and slider), poor mechanics and long games with high pitch counts.

One of the reasons my son is a catcher is because his dad was a pitcher.

Both have tall lanky frames and matured late physically. Dad pitched a ton as a kid and in his sophomore year in college incurred the same injury as Bailey. (And like TPM said, at the time that injury was a career ender.) Dad has always said his injury was seeded by offspeed pitches before physical maturity.

I hate that I am seeing this injury so much with the high schoolers.

Question, if you have one TJ surgery as a prep and you re-injure can you do the surgery again with good result? Or, is it a one shot and these kids are using their one shot at 18?

I don't know anyone who has had TJS and needed it again. It's all in the rehab, the surgery is successful.
The recovery for catchers is much quicker than for pitchers.
FWIW, I know more catchers who have had shoulder problems than pitchers had TJS.

thx TPM, I appreciate the responses.

Now that you mention it, I do see a lot of rehabing catchers at my sons work out place.

quote:

How common is this for catchers?

catchers are the most 2nd common position to need tjs.

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don't know anyone who has had TJS and needed it again. It's all in the rehab, the surgery is successful.
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i know tom gordon had 2, because he needed them. not because of a bad surgery.i'm sure there are more. like anything it can tear again.

son had tj, in 06. dr andrews remarked how many young players needed the surgery. up until then i'd never heard of kids having it.

i'm curious how hard these youg guy's are throwing. i alway's thought that was the thing that put them over the edge. overuse,etc. started the damage, throwing hard before the body's ready finished it off.

20dad,
I suppose it could happen again, but I didn't know anyone that needed it twice. One former pitcher that I know had it many years ago, and gave up the game, but things have certainly changed. Both the procedure and the rehab.
Luvbb told us once the same thing you did, not uncommon for catchers.

Of course there is a higher incidence of TJ surgery now compared to earlier. Before the 1970s, there wasn't any, since it hadn't been invented yet!

Diagnosing and reparing a TJ injury is expensive, and it has only been in the last 2 or 3 years that most health insurance plans would cover even the MRI without a struggle. So TJ surgery has followed the typical path of new medical procedures: they are uncommon at first because of the risk inherent in new procedures (or drugs); subsequently the cost is an impediment, and finally it becomes an accepted practice if the success rate is high. We're close to accepted practice now with TJ.

Playfair,

quote:

Have these injuries always been happening this early or is there just more media coverage of it now?

Yes, this particular injury while increasing with youth has always been with us!
Since there is no pain involved from micro tearing and failure of connective tissue (Ulnar Collateral ligament) because there are no nerves imbedded you will feel like you can continue after a rest the same way Chad and his hopeful team thaught for two weeks
before the bad news from the MRI. This is why severe pain on the inside of your Elbow indicates a different injury. Chad will undergo surgery tomorrow.

The sad part of all of these continuing stories year after year is it is totally preventable!

The injury is caused by “fore arm bounce” (Valgas torque over stress) at initial forward force from an incorrect transition by taking the ball back then up with your hand on top of the ball taught by most traditional pitching and throwing coaching.

What happens is in when your glove side foot plants and your forward momentum is stopped you then have to turn the ball over late in your rotation that takes your elbow forward while the ball (magic 90) actually goes backwards bouncing the UCL like a bungee cord, the problem is the UCL is designed to hold bone to bone not project objects the way muscle and tendon are designed to. Human connective tissue and soft tissue do not stretch, they are made up of finite length strands that tear when they reach full length and receive over stress.

The reasons for UCL degradation and subsequent Kineseological discovery were figured out and fixed including the proper rehab over 25 years ago. Tommy John was taught how to fix his mechanics so that he had a long and successful after surgery career but he had the luxury of having the actual expert Kineseologist and rehab expert playing with him.

This false notion that “over use” is the problem lets this injury keep on trucken.
This is purely a mechanical force application problem that is correctable!!!!!
If you have received the surgery and return to the way you pitched or threw you will continue to micro tear the new UCL that has no revascularization and cannot repair itself the way your original one could and then fail again just like many MLB pitchers who have had multiple redo’s like Smolts who is trying (and probably will) to come back from his third UCL reconstruction. He was also having shoulder issues.
With the correct rehab players can be throwing maximally within 12 months.
With the accepted rehab and adhering to your same mechanics rehab can last as long as 16 to 20 months.

Oh no!! Not the dreaded “pie thrower” yep the vary thing all the traditional coaches, scouts and pitching coaches tell you not to do is actually what you should be doing!!
The mechanical fix is so easy that it’s ridiculous, just bring your ball back then up with your hand under the ball and thumb up supinating and arrive at ear height before your glove foot lands then you can make your transition (inner elbow up) so that the elbow and ball start forward together. This action also lengthens you initial driveline at the start of forward force.

Yardbird, good information although I cannot imagine what that motion looks like. I got my son to switch from pitcher to catcher just for this reason, now I hear catchers are at risk too. Should have made him a first baseman? Son throws very hard, have not seen very many preps throw down to 2nd like he does. All I heard were knee problems for catchers, oh well.

quote:

The recovery for catchers is much quicker than for pitchers.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Son (catcher) had TJ surgery about 4-5 years ago (boy...can't believe it's been that long). What we found at the time, and perhaps this has changed by now, but the emphasis on rehab is totally from a pitcher's perspective. Everything is geared towards pitchers...not much was done specifically for a catcher's need. We had many phone calls down to Doc Andrews with questions pertaining to just this. And the BIG setback was once he was cleared to play in games again. The problem was that (and please do nto take this the wrong way all you pitcher parents) he wasn't being played "cautiously" and less sporadically as a pitcher would be. Every game, no pitch counts, bull pens, etc. It was a problem. Doc Andrews even acknowledge this to us...that catcher's are everyday workhorses as compared to pitchers. Therefore, alot of times catcher's recovery from TJ has more setbacks than that of a pitcher. Of course...I'm speaking in GENERALITIES here...and there are exceptions...and I'll also qualify this as hopefully things have changed in the last 4-5 years in this respect.

I get what your saying. A good point that you have made.

How about this, back in the game situation is quicker for catchers than pitchers. They get to hit.

The post by itsinthegame, son had TJS end of last season and playing already, that would not be true with a pitcher.

If position players and catchers do not throw like pitchers, why UCL injury? Could it possibly be injury related to other than throwing? Could we suppose there are plenty of non pitchers walking around with torn UCL?

Very interesting, it was stated that Pujols needed TJS, but the procedure done was nerve transposition to avoid TJS? I never heard of this before, so therefore, must be a lot of new stuff going on.

quote:

Very interesting, it was stated that Pujols needed TJS, but the procedure done was nerve transposition to avoid TJS? I never heard of this before, so therefore, must be a lot of new stuff going on.

THAT...I am sure of!

Doc Andrews told us the vast majority of TJ injuries are the end result of shoulder injuries. Changing throwing mechanics and putting more stress on the elbow due to shoulder injuries.

Yardbird;

Where do you live in Southern California?
Can we meet on the 16 or 17 of May?

Bob Williams
<goodwillseries.org>

My son, another catcher, tore his UCL when he was 17. He never had any elbow problems, it just simply 'popped' during a single throw down. After the surgeon, Dr. Akizuki, performed the TJS on him, he came out and told me that ligament was actually torn in two places. One was an older partial tear that he'd been playing with for some time, and he never knew he had a problem. The other new injury tore away where the ligament connects to the ulna, and that was one that hurt and put him on the shelf for over a year.

Son pitched in addition to catching, and I've always thought that combination probably had a lot to do with his injury. Also, he loved to throw down to second from his knees, and that places much more stress on the arm than throwing standing. I've wondered how much that contributed.

As for nerve transportation that TPM refers to, Dr. Akizuki told us that he almost always relocates the nerve, as some of the patients who don't have the nerve moved eventually come back to have that done due to tingling or discomfort in their fingers. They move the nerve up toward the inside bend of the elbow.

I always made sure my catchers did not pitch same day they would pitch or had. Same with my pitchers...I would not put them behind the plate after they had pitched.

I always thought that the legs were the most important part of pitching and catching.

I am not sure that they move the nerve without surgery. My understanding (could be wrong) was that this was an alternative for Pujols and he is coming along well.
He will have to have surgery eventually, but didn't want to miss any part of the season unless it was a bust.
He must be one tough guy.

I had a conversation with a 15 year MLB reliever about TJS. He had it. He said the rehab was amazing. All pitchers should do the rehab workouts even if they don't have the surgery or any pain at all. The workout is great for all players and would prevent a lot of the surgeries. He was given the information early in his career, but like most people, blew it off until he had the surgery. I do believe the workout should be implemented for all kids that play for increased speed and to avoid injury.

Bob Williams,

I live in Southern Orange County near Mission Viejo.
I can meet you either day that weekend.
Jim Lentine introduced me to you in Long beach at the Area code games in the early 90’s once. I will e-mail you at your site soon.

kbat
He throws pretty much over the top. Had no pain whatsoever before this injury. In my opinion he wasn't over used at all. I saw his pitching coach on Sat. at a tournamnet and his feeling was it was caused by improper mechanics. Didn't quite understand but I will, had to do with his front side causing his throwing arm to drag behind and needing to catch-up putting a lot of stress on the elbow. It seems like such a little thing that can cause such a huge problem.

Part of the increase is that more doctors are doing the surgery, i.e., at one time only a few docs were, such as Andrews. Now many doctors are--therefore, there can be more surgeries.

Also, there are more young kids playing baseball year round. There is no time to rest the arm. In the past, kids would play one or two other sports, thereby using different muscles and resting their arms. Now they are focused on one sport---without much, if any, time off to rest.

And kids are playing competitive baseball earlier. The accumulation of playing can take its toll.

One son had TJ surgery, the other had labrum surgery. As our doc said, the shoulder doesn't know if it's pitching or throwing. You have to rest it. He also said that you have to take the warm up pitches and throws into consideration. They should count when you are counting pitches. They are pitches, just not to a live batter. Our doc is a White Sox doc.

When my son (19 at the time) had the TJ, there was another kid scheduled that same day for the surgery--who was 12. Yikes.

I know of a couple of gymnasts who have had "Tommy John" surgery. So it's not just a pitching/baseball injury.