Projecting Velo. - too much to have to make up??

Welcome jt. You should snoop around (search) the pitching thread and you will find all kinds of stuff on velocity development. You really have to wait until after puberty to really know what velocity your son will throw. In the mean time he should get into a good long toss program, start hitting the weight room and he will see immediate gains. He is only a freshmen so don’t sweat it, but at the same time he will have to work on it to develop what gifts he has. Everyone has their genetic max, few achieve it however.

Velo is a product of mechanics, conditioning, mindset and genetics (which includes size). Perfect the three you can control and you reach the theoretical max for any particular player.

Some players get velo early and level off; others actually drop after peaking in high school; others fluctuate (e.g., each growth spurt lowers velo until the “wiring” is back in place); others continue to increase velo as each of the three components you can control come together. I do not know of a predictive proxy (like how fast in each age Johnny threw means that he will max out at _____).

For my S, his velo steadily progressed from the time he was 9 until this year (he just entered his freshman year of college). He threw 45 at 9 (don’t know how the ball actually got to the plate), 50 at 10, 55 at 11, 60 at 12, 65 at 13 (summer before 9th), 70 at 14 (end of 9th grade), 75 at 15 (end of 10th), 85 at 16 (end of 11th) (in summer before 11th, changed pitching coach to one who had the “mindset” to throw fast), and 91 at 17 (sr year). (All velos are “touch”; he sits 2 mph lower.)

He did not have any huge growth spurt; slow and steady growth the entire time so he had no “rewiring” issues.

He did begin serious pitcher specific workouts beginning in 10th grade (he worked out earlier but really intensified in 10th grade). He was always known as a “left handed thumber” [gosh how I really didn’t like that word], was not overused during rec , all-star and travel ball, and really was the tortoise in the race to velo. [And, like so many others who did not have the blazing fb, we were told that control and command were all important –I will not get into that debate other than to observe that only after the guards open the kingdom doors [the magic word being “velo”] does c and c seem to really matter.]

In the camps he tried [he did no PG events (: ]: as a rising junior, he was noticed by D3’s only [throwing 80ish]; as a rising senior he was noticed by low and mid-level D1’s [that summer he touched 87 and sat 85]. In the fall he was noticed by others – though at the college level it did not matter as he had already selected his school.

So, I guess the moral of the story is to work, work, work on that which he can control (mechanics, conditioning, and mind set). Once he has done that work, then work some more – he will catch many of those hares in the velo race. And, if he is going through growth spurts which effect his coordination, his coordination will improve (and so will his mechanics if he works).

It’s way too early to determine where he will wind up velo-wise.

I'm aware of a player who is probably about 1 1/2 to 2 years behind the average in physical development.....meaning essentially that puberty was delayed by about that amount.

Given that someone can be delayed by that amount, it stands to reason that some others can be accelerated by that amount. Those would be the outliers in both accelerated and delayed. The great majority are in between of course.

Neither situation gives an accurate picture of where the player may finish up. Some players who can throw 78 in the ninth grade may end up struggling to break 86.

Lets put it this way. Your guy probably has a lot more chance of adding 20 mph than any of the players who are now throwing at 75. Just have him believe that he can improve, and regularly and steadily do the things that are talked about on these boards that will contribute to that improvement.

I appreciate everyone's input. He throws with a 14 yr ex-big leaguer, and has been in a strength/agility program for about a year. Didn't mention in my first post but he's 5'7" and about 125 lbs.

thanks again!

jt123 its not where you start its where you finish. I remember a young man that came into our program who we kept simply because he was a great kid who worked hard. I never thought for one minute he would contribute on the field. I have no idea what he threw as a fresh or soph there was no need to gun him. It was very slow. His Jr year he was 79-81 his sr year he was 83-85. He had a very nice college career.

I had another kid who came in and was a mid 70's guy. His sr year he sat in the low 90's. He is now pitching in the ML's.

I have had guys come in throwing 80-82 as freshman and leave throwing mid 80's.

What can your son control? That is what is important. He is going to grow so much in the next few years. He is going to change so much you will not believe it. WORK! Go to work for what you want. Then he will be all that he could be and that is all we can ask of any young man chasing his dream in this game. Good Luck

quote:

He throws with a 14 yr ex-big leaguer, and has been in a strength/agility program for about a year

How you been seeing gains in terms of strength? I'm guessing not because of the velocity. It may be time to change things up a little and find another source.

Your son isn't entirely in a ditch, but it is very important that you have a sense of urgency in terms of developing velocity. This is all of course assuming that he wants to play at the higher spectrum of the game (college baseball).

Here are the steps you need to take:

1. Get learning about the human musculature and how exactly you need to prepare the body so that it can withstand a high velocity throw. Eric Cressey is a good source in this regard: http://ericcressey.com/

2. Optimize the mechanics. Study clips of big leaguers that have similar mechanics and try to see the differences.

In terms of comprehensive throwing ideology, you need to see www. http://s e t p r o.com/forums/content.php?3-Welcome!!

No spaces between s e t p r o.

3. Have the intent to throw hard. Most players have little understanding of the mental focus and intensity it takes to throw with velocity. You shold look into a long toss program so that you can visualize this intent and intensity.

Good luck and what is the parents size in terms of height and build?

quote:

but he's 5'7" and about 125 lbs.

jt123,

First of all, welcome to the HS Baseball Web!

And now I want to ask you...

What do you think the chances are that your son will be 5'7" and 125 lbs when he is 18 years old?

My point:

I don't know if your son will be 5'9", 5'11", or 6'1" when he is a senior in HS or a freshman in college. But I'm pretty sure he will not be 125 lbs. He is somewhat small for a HS freshman. He will get bigger. He will get stronger. He will throw harder.

At your son's size, it is very conceivable that he could add 10 mph in velocity in one year when he has a growth spurt. Get him some good coaching, or study pitching mechanics yourself and help him pitch with good mechanics. Encourage him to do strength workouts, but don't over do it.

He will throw harder. I'm certain of that!

Julie

quote:

Originally posted by jt123:
I appreciate everyone's input. He throws with a 14 yr ex-big leaguer, and has been in a strength/agility program for about a year. Didn't mention in my first post but he's 5'7" and about 125 lbs.

thanks again!

I have an 18 year old son that is one of the top 5 on his HS football team for time spent in the weight room...and he works hard, not just standing around. He's 6'6"....and 178 lbs.

My point is, that he's a late bloomer and hasn't really gotten his mans body yet. Without it, all the weight work in the world will only result in minimal gains. My older son was throwing low to mid 80's as a junior in hs, 6'4" and 180. As a senior, 6'5" and 210, he topped out at 94, he bloomed a little faster than his younger brother.

No one knows anything until the body matures enough for comparison.

Best of luck.

quote:

I have a recently turned 14 yr old RHP that just entered 9th grade (he's on the young side in his grade). He has excellent control and can throw any of his 3 pitches in any count.

this is the important stuff to learn, the velocity will come with time and work. and as cplz say's maturity.

At your son's age, my guy was 5'10" 130. He is now 6'4" 190 as a college freshman, and still filling out. Give it time. As long as he is working out and throwing velocity will improve. My son's came as he grew into his body. The best thing about the velocity coming later is he has always been more of a "pitcher" and not just a "thrower."

Per my post above and size: S was 5' 4" 115 entering hs; finished hs at 5' 11" 145; now 6' 155 beginning college. Decent velo is not necessarily size dependent.

While I agree that physical maturity adds to velo, I believe that machanics, conditioning, and the mind set to throw hard are more important. But, so long as he works, works, works, he will approach his god-given (genetic) max potential.

quote:

Originally posted by Goosegg:
Per my post above and size: S was 5' 4" 115 entering hs; finished hs at 5' 11" 145; now 6' 155 beginning college. Decent velo is not necessarily size dependent.

While I agree that physical maturity adds to velo, I believe that machanics, conditioning, and the mind set to throw hard are more important. But, so long as he works, works, works, he will approach his god-given (genetic) max potential.

Amen and amen! I don't know how tall my son will end up (5'10" just entering HS) but he works as hard or harder than anyone around where we live at his mechanics, conditioning and the mindset to throw harder. He realizes that velocity will come regardless of height if he just works at it. So far, it has worked out- he throws harder than most kids older and taller than him.

quote:

Originally posted by Goosegg:
While I agree that physical maturity adds to velo, I believe that machanics, conditioning, and the mind set to throw hard are more important. But, so long as he works, works, works, he will approach his god-given (genetic) max potential.

There are some people that work very hard at developing velo, no matter what size they are, it still never will reach farther than his body will allow. Be careful of overworking a young immature body.
I a firm beleiver and always will be, don't worry about your son's velo at 14, through a good toss program and conditioning, and maturing, it will come, then when years where gains are made and better physically developed, it will be time to work harder on that. In the meantime, don't lose sight that it is important to work very hard on developing your other pitches, hitting and how the game is played (strategy). If the velocity never reaches very high, you got two very good pitches to work with besides the fastball and your understanding of the game will move you forward. There are a few pitchers on son's team who are starters and just touch 90, yet their other pitches are devastating and that's what gets them out, as well as the sink and on their FB to produce groundball bloopers.

My 14yo is in much the same situation - 9th grade, about 5'4" and 150. He has never been gunned but I'm guessing his fastball is in the low 60's. Growing/puberty is just starting, so I imagine his velocity will increase. As for how tall he'll be, who knows? I'm just shy of 6', and my brothers ranged from 5'9" to 6'3", and sisters from 5'2" to 5'9". Big legs are where some of the weight is.

In some ways, his late development and lower velocity has been a blessing, as he has not been overworked. Last spring and this summer in Colt/Palomino he was usually sent in to get the team out of a jam. Control and keeping his pitches low were critical to avoid getting hit hard. He can also throw a curve with a big break, as well as a two-seamer with movement.

He is now on a fall team with a coach that was a pretty good small college pitcher - it's the first time he has been coached in game situations by someone that really knows the craft. By the time he gets stronger and the velocity increases, he will actually be able to do something with it and have other pitches that complement the fastball.

JohnU

I don't want to sound rude, but at 60, you might need to be worried about HS, not college. What is the avg speed of 9th/ JV pitchers at your school? Some here didn't seem concerned at 60, but in our area, you would have to be low 70s to start 9th.

At his age/size he should be much faster. He has technique problems that must be corrected. (I know, I can already hear the chatter) Find a pitching instructor that can fix your son's technique, not take your money for agility training. I imagine he could be throwing much faster quickly with a few basic improvements.

Again, I don't mean to sound rude, but I see lots of sad faced kids that don't get to start.

Its not being rude its just telling it like you see it based on your experience in the game.

JT103 and Johnu. Yes, it is the hard truth. The question is now, what do you do with that truth?

So JT, you think your kid will never throw hard enough? Probably--and absolutely, if he thinks that way. My own kid was always the smallest kid at every tryout. At age 12 or so he couldn't even find a team. He was told his arm was too weak. So he threw year round, 5-6 days a week and never took a break even with two feet of snow on the ground in the dead of winter. He threw indoors up against a racquetball ball court wall while the other guys were turning out for football or playing with their new Nintendos.

He'd throw in the rain. He'd throw in the wind. He threw in parking lots if our family was on a road trip. He'd throw after he threw up.

He ran, he trained with pitching instructors, he went to a bunch of conditioning camps, did plyometrics, bands, ate well.. and he'd throw some more. He went throwing with his brother while the Thanksgiving Turkey was roasting in the oven.

Learn long-toss. Learn patience and perserverence. But never learn you're not good enough.

Bum,

Good advice. I'm not too worried about him making/not making the HS freshman/JV team - it's largely up to him. That said, his chances are good because he can throw strikes! As I mentioned earlier he has just really started to grow so I imagine that the velocity will increase. Has also started back with the pitching coach he has worked with previously - took a break during the summer due to conflicts re the son's and the coach's schedules. Also doing long toss three days a week.

Besides the conditioning he is doing at school, he is doing core exercises and running, so he will have a good foundation on which to grow. I am aware that he is 1-2 years behind many of the boys with regard to physical development, so sometimes patience is in order.

JohnU

My earlier post was intended to make the point that, in fact, some of the delayed guys are actually 3+ years behind some of their teammates, because the teammates are accelerated in their development.

All this will eventually evaporate, as the early maturing kids "hit the ceiling" when they're 17 instead of 20, and the later maturers keep progressing.

The advice given above of steadily working at what you need to do is the key. I've often felt we make upper success seem unnattainable in sports by telling kids they have to work their tails off night and day. It really is not true. Especially to get to where you can have success in high school. You simply have to work steadily. I think 20 minutes of throwing specific work 5 days a week over a period of years will put you so far ahead of those who don't do it that you will be surprised at what happens.

Relating to size.......I stood next to John Franco at a showcase not too long ago and if Franco can make the major leagues, its clear that size is not an absolute impediment. He could not have been more than 5'9" barefoot, and probably not that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pedropere: I've often felt we make upper success seem unnattainable in sports by telling kids they have to work their tails off night and day. It really is not true. Especially to get to where you can have success in high school. You simply have to work steadily. I think 20 minutes of throwing specific work 5 days a week over a period of years will put you so far ahead of those who don't do it that you will be surprised at what happens. [QUOTE]

This might put them ahead of the kids that "don't" but not the kids who work their tails off. I can assure you the kids at the highest levels worked their tails off!

Bum your talking about something that very few understand and many scoff at. The ones that scoff at that do so because they have no idea what it actually takes. They assume kids just have it or they dont have it. Or they assume that a kid is just "blessed."

Building arm strength is no different than building strength in the weight room. A consistent plan that you are consistent at. And it starts way before you get in HS if you want to be a factor coming into HS. There are no quick fixes. There are no short cuts. It takes hard work and it takes consistent dedication to reaching goals.

The players I have coached that have had the most success were always the ones that put the most into it before I ever got them and the most in it after I got them. You can work just as hard as everyone else and you can have a goal of being as good as everyone else. And if you reach that goal congratulations you have achieved the goal of being average. Or you can work harder than everyone else , be more dedicated than everyone else , be more consistent than everyone else and be special.

When your starting from a position of playing catch up because your not as naturally talented as your competition and then you do what they are doing how are you ever suppose to make up this ground? And if your starting from a position of being just as good as your competition and you do exactly what they are doing then you will be average just like everyone else around you.

No you must do more and want to do more and aspire to be the very best. That requires doing more , wanting it more , and a true desire to pay the price for it. It just doesnt happen. You make it happen.

The player has to want it BADLY !!!!

The patience thing is so true. My son all of 5'2" and 90 lbs has been gunned at 70. Not bad considering his size. His pitching coach and former aaa player love his mechanics and see really good things and has said he sees him going 89+ someday provided he grows.

The real gut shot is he has not even hit puberty yet and just turned 16 and my wife and I are concerned. Has anybody else had this "late of a bloomer"?

Our patience is really being tested as he gets no respect due to his size not his ability. I have to believe the growth spurt is right around the corner. Can't wait, because the respect thing or lack there of is really getting old.

went through what you are going thru. had a very late bloomer. 105lbs 5ft 1in as freshman, 125lbs 5ft 4in sophomore, 5ft 11in 140 junior yr, 6ft 1in 160 lbs senior year. now pitching in d1 program as freshman. velocity went from low 70's to 94 during the journey. if he has a "quick arm" and good genes he is going to be just fine...be careful with growth plates as my guy had some issues with olecranon in elbow when growth sourt started...

Here is the very best information you can attain regarding adolescent growth tendencies as related to baseball pitchers and throwers. This is very important information that should be obsorbed by all parents and coaches who work with these age groups.

http://www.drmikemarshall.com/ChapterFour.html
http://www.drmikemarshall.com/ChapterFive.html
http://www.drmikemarshall.com/ChapterSix.html
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http://www.drmikemarshall.com/ChapterEight.html
http://www.drmikemarshall.com/ChapterNine.html

Are you kidding me...Marshall Sexual Maturation Indicator Value (SMIV) Checklist

quote:

Originally posted by jt123:
I have a recently turned 14 yr old RHP that just entered 9th grade ?

Remember, Teenager change yearly

With linear curves, rule of thumb is 3-5 per year.

Typically Big jumps from 15-17 y/o.

I would not throw him under the bus yet.

Core strengthening is required!

This is a family site can we post the SMIV here?

Freakpop, etal.

The velocity chase is a long term proposition and you have to just keep working at it, focusing on it, week in, and week out - don’t give up! I think there is a general increase in velocity over time as the player generally grows and develops and then you get these little bumps of 2-3 MPH that seem to come out of nowhere, but when you look back they are usually tied to a growth spurt, real improvement in strength, or some other mechanical fix.

Mine was a typical Freshmen at 72-73, he jumped up to 78/79 as a soph, then slowly increased to 82-84 as a Jr and then it all seemed to stop….. No improvement, he kept working on his strength and conditioning, long toss and mechanics and still little improvement. It got to the point that in his summer rising Sr. recruiting season that he was going to give up on the pitching and just focus on hitting. (subject for another post later) Then this fall he discovered a couple of keys to his mechanics and he got one pop of 2 MPH up to 86, he thought OK this is getting close, and then he fixed one huge key in his mechanics and he jumped up to 89. As soon as this happened the lights came in his head on what he needed to do the ball started to get out of his hand feely and the phone started ringing! Literally in a matter of weeks everything changed. He has coaches asking him what the heck happened in the last 8 weeks, so you just never know.

To further this he has a friend that signed late last year toward the end of his HS season for good $$ and a very major So Cal Univ, another guy he knows signed in July of his Sr year, so don’t give up keep working because you never know what can happen. In the end you might have to go to a JC and develop there. If you want it bad enough DON’T GIVE UP!