PROPER Long Tossing for PITCHERS

I can tell you what Tom House and the NPA folks advocate. They recommend throwing long toss using proper pitching mechanics and only throwing to a distance where proper mechanics can still be maintained.

Roger,
You seem as though you would have enough experience to form your own opinion. I would be intersted in hearing if you concur with Tom House or differ in any way.

Thanks

CPLZ,
My opinion is that House's recommendation seems to make sense more for players who are pitchers only. I do believe players should throw frequently and long toss is part of that. For players who are pitchers only, they might as well do all of that throwing in a way that reinforces their pitching. But, for other players, I don't feel this is absolutely necessary.

Now, on the travel team I coach, we try to use as many of the players as pitchers as possible so that we don't abuse arms in the pitching marathons otherwise known as travel ball tournaments. So, when I conduct a pitching practice, I instruct the players to use proper pitching mechanics and to throw only from a distance where they can maintain proper mechanics. At other practices, I let them air it out like outfielders.

BTW, I'm not out to fool anyone here. My experience consists of a couple years of Little League coaching and 4 years of travel ball coaching. I've studied pitching for most of those years and have twice gone through the coach's certification program with Tom House and the NPA. I joined this site within the last year because my current travel ball players are making the transition to high school ball and I'm trying to help them make that transition.

I think Tom House has some great things but I personally like Alan Jaeger's long-toss program. He advocates going out as far as it feels good, not concerned about arc, but finishes about 60' away and working on pulling down to compress a 300' (or whatever max) throw into a 60' throw. It's been great for all of our guys the last 10 years.

When talking about a throwing program, or a weight program for that matter the most important part of the workout is change. Its not that one mans ideas on throwing are greater then anothers, but equall. The body adjusts so quickly to a routine that the best way to achieve desired results is to change your routine every couple of weeks....long toss, line drive toss, pens, ect.... It is difficult to force change on yourself, but if you want a desired strength and or velocity increase one needs to continuesly shock the bodys muscle memory to stimulate growth and build endurance.
peace

quote:

Originally posted by ncball:
I think Tom House has some great things but I personally like Alan Jaeger's long-toss program. He advocates going out as far as it feels good, not concerned about arc, but finishes about 60' away and working on pulling down to compress a 300' (or whatever max) throw into a 60' throw. It's been great for all of our guys the last 10 years.

What does "pulling down" mean? Does it have something to do with throwing mechanics? Or does it just mean shortening up the throwing distance?

Pulling through with your arm so that your release point gets lower and lower as you come in but maintain maximum throwing effort.

That seems to imply that the only difference between pitching and long toss is arm motion. I'm not sure if that's really what you meant to say but I don't agree with that (unless you are limiting the distance and doing long toss with proper pitching mechanics/timing in the first place).

Maybe it means put that same effort that you would use for a 300 ft throw into a 60 ft throw?

I don’t think there’s a big secret to long toss. You get the ball way out on your fingertips and let it fly in a balanced step-behind crow hop. Not like an outfielder. Pitchers should try and get low with their hips to work on the good balanced explosion of the hips when throwing long distances. I believe that long toss teaches players to throw harder because of the increased strength/explosion in the legs/hips more than the increase in overall arm strength. Changeups should always be thrown at all distances when backing up to long toss.

Keep working hard,
Justin Stringer
Do It Right Baseball
Lane Tech Baseball
www.doitrightbaseball.com
HSBASEBALLWEB SPONSOR

Roger- It helps you get the feel of finishing properly. Does that help?

Justin- It DEFINITELY helps arm strength as much or more than anything. Plenty of drills to teach proper loading to explode more. Long toss would not be the first to come to mind.

quote:

Originally posted by ncball:
Roger- It helps you get the feel of finishing properly. Does that help?

I think I know what you're after. However, I believe that release point is a result of the mechanics leading up to it as well as the timing of those mechanics. Thus, according to my thinking, if one used different mechanics to throw long toss than they used for pitching, then bringing that release point back down would be a matter of reverting back to proper pitching mechanics and timing.

Roger- Long toss is for arm strength. That is a good thing for pitchers. Do yourself a favor and open your thinking cap to new ideas. Go visit jaegersports.com and read about Jaeger's long toss program all over this site. There are no absolutes in baseball. This program has worked for countless guys in my program who have reached the pinnacle of baseball while using it for the last 10 years. It's the same throwing program for Zumaya who throws 104 and for Zito who has NEVER missed a start.

FYI- Don't fall into a trap that you blindly follow the philosophy of one guy in baseball. Do your own thinking. You are obviously a Tom House guy. I like Tom, gone to his clinics, had him up for clinics, etc. That said, I like Jaeger's long toss program and I'm a fan of what *****/Weinstein/Englishby/etc. teach for lower body when pitching. I try to combine what I think makes the most sense of all the things I come across.

Bottom line- You shouldn't come on here and ask questions hoping for people to agree with you. This is a place to gather information and make decisions on your own. There are no absolutes.

Roger,
The pulling down portion of the long toss consists of throwing on a line while working back down in distance. It finishes up at about the normal pitching distance and the pitcher/thrower tries to hit a low target in order to re-establish the normal release point that tends to be lost while airing it out.

I've watched young kids to MLB players use the program for several years now at Jaeger's camps.

quote:

Originally posted by ncball:
Roger- Don't fall into a trap that you blindly follow the philosophy of one guy in baseball. Do your own thinking. You are obviously a Tom House guy. I like Tom, gone to his clinics, had him up for clinics, etc. That said, I like Jaeger's long toss program and I'm a fan of what *****/Weinstein/Englishby/etc. teach for lower body when pitching. I try to combine what I think makes the most sense of all the things I come across.

Bottom line- You shouldn't come on here and ask questions hoping for people to agree with you. This is a place to gather information and make decisions on your own. There are no absolutes.

ncball
I know Roger and he's quite open minded. Yes, he comes from a Tom House frame of reference but he's here, and on other boards, to broaden those horizons. Very open to ideas, actually.

dm- That's good to here. I've always liked the House stuff, especially the upper-body mechanics. I do believe in long-toss as far as you can go and that you need to use some drive and torque with your lower body. I try to take what makes sense from lots of theories and then see what works for each player.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Roger,
The pulling down portion of the long toss consists of throwing on a line while working back down in distance. It finishes up at about the normal pitching distance and the pitcher/thrower tries to hit a low target in order to re-establish the normal release point that tends to be lost while airing it out.

CADad, thanks for that explanation. But it seems like having to "re-establish the normal release point" would be argument for doing long toss using nproper pitching mechanics only. So is there some other aspect of Jaeger's program that makes having to do this a worthwhile trade-off?

quote:

I've watched young kids to MLB players use the program for several years now at Jaeger's camps.

I'm definitely going to look into this program.

Just got back from Las Vegas and had my two boys long-toss there every day. Out of curiosity, I counted actual throws: 147

My rising Junior has been following Jaeger's approach, and makes sure he properly follows the "pull-down" phase. If anything, his release point has gotten stronger and more consistent in game situations. No problem there.

My son follows Jaeger's program for long toss. It has not affected his pitching release point. IMO, when you allow yourself to move out beyond your normal throwing limit, you have to be strengthening your arm. I do not believe in limiting long toss to a distance like 120'.

Roger,
The advantage of the stretching out phase where the player works out to maximum distance throwing on an arc is twofold. One it does stretch the arm out gradually while working out to that distance and two it gets the player to put out maximum effort at the end of the stretching out phase while still throwing smoothly.

The player then is hopefully able to retain the feel for smooth full effort throwing as they work back down in distance and re-establish the release point.

When a player doesn't go beyond 120' it is very difficult for them to know if they have worked up to or close to full effort in their throwing. There are certainly some players who can get themselves to throw at full effort at 120' but there are also a lot of players who can't and IMO they are the majority. The same goes for throwing off a mound unless there is some sort of feedback such as a radar gun, however it is much more difficult to ensure that a player works up to full velocity gradually while throwing off a mound than it is while doing long toss.

The reason the interval throwing program works for rehab is that when you limit a player's throwing distance they tend to throw only hard enough to reach that distance. The Jaeger long toss program is simply an extension of the interval throwing program to longer distances with the addition of the pulldown phase. No throwing program is 100% safe but the Jaeger program comes as close as one can reasonably expect.

One of the highlights of the 1st week of the program is watching Alan Jaeger and Jim Vatcher demonstrate long toss technique. I believe Jim is a 40+ guy who although he had a strong arm when playing pro ball was not a pitcher. He's also well under 6'. Jim follows the program religiously and is currently throwing mid to high 80s or above while pitching in adult leagues.

CADad,

Thanks again for the explanation. It sounds like pushing pitchers to reach full effort is a key aspect of the program. I could certainly see pitchers not reaching full effort if the distance was limited.

Next question... What does it mean to "stretch the arm out"? What is the purpose? I've heard people mention this before but I've never really understood it. It tends to make me think about things like loose joints and things that are bad for stretch-shortening cycle (SSC) performance and health.

CADad- Great info. You said it better than I did. Alan and Jim have been up our way many times and it still impresses me how they keep their arms in shape. BTW- 40 is not old! (LOL)

Roger,
I'm not absolutely sure on that. Jaeger uses the terminology of stretching out, but I believe it is more of a stretching out the distance and warming up than actually stretching out the arm per se. However, Jaeger does a lot of Yoga type exercises so he may feel there is a stretching element involved. My understanding is that Jaeger feels that the arm strengthening occurs during the pull down phase. My personal opinion is that it occurs when throwing the maximum distance. I don't think it matters much who is right as the program seems to work as it is structured.

My definition of stretching the arm out would be to extend the distance of the toss to find out how far they can go. Has nothing to do with actual stretching and I agree with you about stretching.

ncball,
I haven't been keeping up with the program for a couple years now and I have problems hitting the 65 number somebody noted. Not only that, but it hurts. Then again, I'm no longer in the 40 group.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
Roger,
You seem as though you would have enough experience to form your own opinion. I would be intersted in hearing if you concur with Tom House or differ in any way.

What era of "Doctor" House are you referring to?

A 60'-70's T. House - when he played?

An early 1980's House - When he began coaching!

A 1980's House "Rules" - When he wrote his book: "The Pitching Edge" as an instructional approach for the beginner pitcher.

A 80's-90's House "Stick" - When many of us could not understand the fricking stick figures from
his company 'Bio-Netics'

A late 1990's House "ABCA" - When he was presented (in '98) with ABCA'd lifetime achievement award.

A 2000 House - When he wrote his (umpteen) 11th book: "Pitching Perfect Pitcher" seeking answers to the question "What is a good pitching delivery?"

A 2007 House: Whose ( "prize top young protege - Mark Prior" - & 22 y/o at the time), underwent a season ending arm surgery two weeks ago...
...( and as forecasted in 2003 (by none-other and real doctor and former Cy Young Award winner Dr. Mike Marshall).

cheers

Gosh,

Going down this road again. I can honestly say that long toss has helped my son bounce back from pitching outings and has helped his velocity. His arm is rarely sore and watching him throw from 250' on a line is quite a sight. Those who do not have Thrive on Throwing, please go out and get it. Jaeger's camps are full of college and pro players, he must be doing something right?
After a session of BP my son always finishes up with max long toss. Has been doing this for the past three years and has helped him stay game shape ready. Never ices his arms and always jogs after he throws.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Roger,
The pulling down portion of the long toss consists of throwing on a line while working back down in distance. It finishes up at about the normal pitching distance and the pitcher/thrower tries to hit a low target in order to re-establish the normal release point that tends to be lost while airing it out.

CADad, thanks for that explanation. But it seems like having to "re-establish the normal release point" would be argument for doing long toss using nproper pitching mechanics only. So is there some other aspect of Jaeger's program that makes having to do this a worthwhile trade-off?

quote:

I've watched young kids to MLB players use the program for several years now at Jaeger's camps.

I'm definitely going to look into this program.

Okay, maybe I am not understanding this, but if you are using the same release point, where does the LONG toss come into play?

I recommend...

Less long tossing.

More EXPLOSIVE thowing.

Well, itrogas44,

My LHP son has followed Jaeger's program for four years running now. He long-tosses year-round min 4-5x week. Here's his radar readings:

May04: 70
May05: 75
May06: 81
May07: 87

When he long-tosses, he goes maximum distance. He has never had an arm problem. As for those that think the program ruins a pitcher's release point, that's hogwash. In school ball in 54 innings he has 83 K's and only 16 BB.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Well, itrogas44,

My LHP son has followed Jaeger's program for four years running now. He long-tosses year-round min 4-5x week. Here's his radar readings:

May04: 70
May05: 75
May06: 81
May07: 87

That isn't uncommon, for a high schooler. Maybe the long tossing is working for him. Maybe it is just the pitching and the growing.

In comparison mine went approx....

HS
FR: 72
SO: 76
JR: 80
SR: 82

College
FR: ? injured
SO: 85
JR: 92

A very late bloomer. I stopped long tossing for velocity my soph. year in college.

WOW!! 7MPH in one year at that age! I am very impressed. I would love to hear what you did differently that year than all the others where your gain was significantly less impressive.

micmeister,
Throwing on an arc allows a pitcher to increase the load on their arm in a very controlled fashion and toward the end allows the pitcher to throw at near max velocity. This allows a pitcher to get to a point where they are throwing hard enough to develop their arm very safely. The same can't be said of "throwing on a line". BTW, throwing on a line any significant distance is not possible. There's always an arc on the ball when throwing long toss, the only question is how much of one?

CADAD, 100% correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew:
WOW!! 7MPH in one year at that age! I am very impressed. I would love to hear what you did differently that year than all the others where your gain was significantly less impressive.

I'm sure some if it was from moving from starter to reliever.

I turned into a "max-effort" guy. I figured at my size 6'1" 195, in a world of basketball players, it would be the only way to get noticed. My mechanics got a little violent.

I really worked hard in the gym. Jumping, lifting, core. And when I picked up a ball I threw with a purpose, no going through the motions.