I have a question about high school grades and how college admissions view them. My son is a 2022.
At his school they have on-level, honors, and some select AP courses. When colleges look at a kid's academic rigor, how are honors level courses viewed? Are they viewed as rigorous? I know AP is viewed in a better light, but by how much?
If my son is interested in a high academic institution, I'm assuming he should complete some AP courses. If so, how many?
Thank you.
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I would suggest students take their appropriate level courses for their academic level. IE, the most challenging courses they can achieve an A. Colleges view grades differently. Weighted or unweighted GPA's are specific to the institution.
Spend some time/money insuring his ACT/SAT scores are high. Straight A's and high ACT/SAT scores open a lot of doors.
at our high school, honors classes get an extra 5% weighting in GPA, and AP gets 10%. They are encouraged to take the hardest classes they can manage to prep for college. For instance, my son is taking a math class at honors level and a grade ahead for the challenge and has a B, when he could have an A if he took the regular course. The honors class will be noted on his transcript and will actually be recorded as a B plus due to the weighting. It hurts GPA a bit but the theory is the harder course will help once he takes SAT/ACT. He has As in his other honors courses so also benefits from the weighting in those too (becomes A plus) so that helps offset the B too.
Thank you. He consistently gets A's in honors courses, albeit the sample size is middle school and first semester of high school. His current grades are all 95+. So, I'm going to push him. I'm just trying to find out how hard. He is a three sport athlete and time is at a premium, as I know each of you know.
p.s. AP courses at his school generally aren't available until 11th grade
With those grades, I would have your son take as many AP classes as possible. At minimum 2 per year, starting sophomore year, as most HS don't offer freshman year. From a recruiting perspective you should have mostly honors to go along with those. Goal should be at least 10 honor/AP classes
If your son is interested in a HA school and doesn’t have a baseball opportunity, I would say nearly 100% of his classes should be either honors or AP. FWIW, my daughter graduated with 10 AP classes and is graduating from college in 3 years.
My son will be playing for a HA D1 and has half the number of AP classes, but had baseball to help.
wildcat posted:at our high school, honors classes get an extra 5% weighting in GPA, and AP gets 10%. They are encouraged to take the hardest classes they can manage to prep for college. For instance, my son is taking a math class at honors level and a grade ahead for the challenge and has a B, when he could have an A if he took the regular course. The honors class will be noted on his transcript and will actually be recorded as a B plus due to the weighting. It hurts GPA a bit but the theory is the harder course will help once he takes SAT/ACT. He has As in his other honors courses so also benefits from the weighting in those too (becomes A plus) so that helps offset the B too.
Weighted GPA means nothing to colleges. There isn’t a standard. If academics are going to make a difference unweighted GPA and academic rigor will be considered.
However, two teammates of mine had sons recruited at a D1 P5 HA without taking any honors or AP classes in high school. The program was ranked. They were top 50 PG recruits. They were both ultimately high draft picks.
I'm going to be devil's advocate (what else is new) and give a slightly different viewpoint. MANY HSs are moving away from AP classes. People say how many AP courses they take (parents and kids) as if it is some kind of a badge of honor. I heard something along the recruiting path that will pass on -- there is no honor in honors! I know this goes against most advice on here so it will be VERY dependent on your situation.
If you go to an extremely rigorous HS (not always privates, but many private and prep schools would slot in here), then the HS college advising office is well acquainted with colleges and those colleges know the rigor of the school; they know the reputation. Having a higher GPA then matters. Your school may have a one page summary that they send to colleges that summarizes their program, their offerings, the percentage of kids that go on to colleges etc. Look to see where your son fits in without overloading them with honors and AP courses. HS is hard enough when you balance an athletic commitment(s) and eke out time for recruiting. Better imho to be well rounded and have time to enjoy other activities/clubs at the school.
And some schools do not weight for honors and AP classes. It is all dependent on your son's situation.
Someone inevitably asks the million dollar question that gets asked at every admissions event ever -- is it better to take AP History and get a B or regular and get an A? And the admissions people will say, better to get an A in the AP course. They have to say that.
We hear anecdotally about kids not getting through admissions at X college because their ACT/SAT score was not high enough or their grades were too low. Have you ever heard of someone not getting through because they only took 3 APs and not 6?
I am not saying academic rigor does NOT matter; it does indeed. But balance it with the ability for your son to succeed and be happy. And get recruited, if that is a goal.
real green posted:I would suggest students take their appropriate level courses for their academic level. IE, the most challenging courses they can achieve an A. Colleges view grades differently. Weighted or unweighted GPA's are specific to the institution.
Spend some time/money insuring his ACT/SAT scores are high. Straight A's and high ACT/SAT scores open a lot of doors.
Straight A’s and high ACT/SAT scores open a lot of academic monies as well.
BTW, real/proper honors, AP courses also better prepare a student for the standardized tests. By real/proper, a complaint I hear from counsellors is that some advanced courses teach roughly the same material and just assign triple the homework. What I understand locally, is AP math and english are at the top of the list to better a student, while AP history/social studies do the least. Sciences in the middle.
Just an opinion.
I think it depends on your kid's ability to manage a tough academic work load with sports and other extra curricular activities. My son is a high achiever and has often wanted to take all Honors/AP (he's a junior). I talked him out of it for this year because he also plays music and there just aren't enough hours in the day. I would try and find the right balance between rigor, sanity, and sleep. High academics do open a lot of doors. AP credits are pretty universally accepted and could give your student credit for first year general education requirements, etc. Honors classes also help the weighted GPA which High Academic schools will ask about.
Twoboys posted:I'm going to be devil's advocate (what else is new) and give a slightly different viewpoint. MANY HSs are moving away from AP classes. People say how many AP courses they take (parents and kids) as if it is some kind of a badge of honor. I heard something along the recruiting path that will pass on -- there is no honor in honors! I know this goes against most advice on here so it will be VERY dependent on your situation.
If you go to an extremely rigorous HS (not always privates, but many private and prep schools would slot in here), then the HS college advising office is well acquainted with colleges and those colleges know the rigor of the school; they know the reputation. Having a higher GPA then matters. Your school may have a one page summary that they send to colleges that summarizes their program, their offerings, the percentage of kids that go on to colleges etc. Look to see where your son fits in without overloading them with honors and AP courses. HS is hard enough when you balance an athletic commitment(s) and eke out time for recruiting. Better imho to be well rounded and have time to enjoy other activities/clubs at the school.
And some schools do not weight for honors and AP classes. It is all dependent on your son's situation.
Someone inevitably asks the million dollar question that gets asked at every admissions event ever -- is it better to take AP History and get a B or regular and get an A? And the admissions people will say, better to get an A in the AP course. They have to say that.
We hear anecdotally about kids not getting through admissions at X college because their ACT/SAT score was not high enough or their grades were too low. Have you ever heard of someone not getting through because they only took 3 APs and not 6?
I am not saying academic rigor does NOT matter; it does indeed. But balance it with the ability for your son to succeed and be happy. And get recruited, if that is a goal.
This isn’t necessarily wrong. It depends what the student is trying to accomplish. It depends where he’s trying to get accepted. It depends if the college gives college credit for passing AP tests.
The OP asked what is needed for HA schools. For those who haven't gone through the college application process, IT IS EXTREMELY COMPETITIVE. Any I never use all caps.
It will be very difficult getting into HA without a high number of honors/AP classes, unless you're a special athlete. OP son consistently has a 95+ average. He's an AP student, and should be pushed in the classroom just as much as he is on the field.
HSBBW theorem no 8:
AR = [if ActV >90] then AR = 90 + (sqrd val (99 - Act V)) - [0.1*GPA]; if ActV < 90 then AR = 100* GPA - (90-ActV*10)
In simple terms academic rigor (AR) is inversely proportional to the velocity of pitcher.
Take the classes that your peers will be taking at the schools you are targeting, don't over think it, work hard, do the best you can and the combination of grades and ACT/SAT test scores will determine where the player fits. Getting cute and thinking that you can take a few less AP or IB classes are not going to make a difference in the long run. If a student is Ivy or borderline Ivy, (or fill in the blank for the academic level) it will be self evident by the end of his Jr year.
JMO.
My son's school strongly suggests only 2 aps per year and says so in the school profile that is sent to colleges with the admissions packet. Twoboys is correct on the fluctuating nature of admissions offices opinion of APs. Do what's right by the kid.
RJM above made a good point -- many HA schools do not give credit for AP classes; they help place you in a higher class though. Look into where your son may be applying to know if AP exams will matter in terms of getting any credits or not.
CTBalldad, I respectively disagree. It depends on your school situation -- many schools no longer are offering APs or honor classes. And many schools offer rigor without these labels too. Plus, it takes way more than top scores and top grades (with rigor) to get into a HA school if you are not an athlete. Nowadays you have to cure cancer or run for office or do something else fantastic or have another hook in order to have a chance at a competitive school. Scores and grades alone will not do it on their own.
CTbballDad posted:The OP asked what is needed for HA schools. For those who haven't gone through the college application process, IT IS EXTREMELY COMPETITIVE. Any I never use all caps.
It will be very difficult getting into HA without a high number of honors/AP classes, unless you're a special athlete. OP son consistently has a 95+ average. He's an AP student, and should be pushed in the classroom just as much as he is on the field.
It all depends on the definition of HA. There are plenty of HA schools where 4 APs a year aren't necessary. There are HA schools where you can get in with a combination of standard and honors courses and good test scores. Obviously not IVY schools, but there are plenty of good small schools in the northeast where an A/B mix and scores can get you in without a sport.
Our son is also a 2022. After a long talk this summer with his HS VP and guidance counselor, we decided the best route was to go with Dual Enrolled courses the our local Community College (starting Soph. yr) We’re pretty fortunate that the CC has developed a good program for HS students to be able to get many first year college courses out of the way. In fact, if a couple of online summer courses are taken each year, students can graduate HS with an AA in hand.
We were advised that less colleges each year are awarding credit for AP as they have in the past.
I post this not to discourage but to inform..I believe that knowledge is always a good thing when entering a situation because you can be sure that there are other parents who are well aware and so should you..If you are a private school student, the college application will be put in one pile...a public school student's in another, and a third pile is for legacies and potential big donors who are identified and courted by the school's regional rep at fancy restaurant lunches..each pile with it's own criteria for admission..this applies to many, many HA schools...not all..baseball helps...HS guidance counselors know this but won't say such because it's devastating...I know as I have many family in academia for generations who know the inside workings first hand..the world of college admissions is not as altruistic as we wish it were in these matters..assess what pile you may be in, be realistic, have a backup plan and do your best is my advice.
Just for clarification, yes, the majority of schools do not take AP credits. Many State schools do, but most privates do not. But class rigor is considered during the admissions process. So, if AP/honors are offered and you do not take them, you'll go into another pile.
We have one son currently at a HA private college, and one at well-regarded public university. Both kids took lots of AP and IB courses. (honors courses are meaningless to colleges BTW) Our kids' experience was, yes, the public school gave lots of credit for our son's IB work, which has been a great help. And yes, the private school gave our other son zero credit for his AP work, but there was still a beneficial effect. Taking, for example, AP Calculus, prepared him well for harder Calculus courses in college.
Leaving baseball and even admissions criteria aside, there's but one important question about HS curricula: Is the course work going to prepare him or her to thrive academically in college?
To answer the OP's original question, without regard to baseball and just looking at college admissions, most admissions counselors would tell you to have your son take some classes that challenge him. If he is getting all high As in honors classes, he should pick a few AP classes to take. That's what rigor means. It sounds like an honors class is not rigorous enough for your son. That doesn't mean he should overload himself with AP classes. Try to find a balance. What are his strongest subjects? What is he most interested in? Pick a couple of those classes to go the AP route.
There's a lot of good and not so good information on this thread about college admissions and what colleges look for in an applicant's grades. Every school is going to be slightly different in its process, but most smaller (and some bigger, more selective) schools use a form of holistic review, looking at the kid from lots of different angles.
Part of that review is to compare the student's choice of classes and resulting grades against those of his peers at his own high school. The guidance counselor at your high school will usually send some sort of school profile that contains a lot of background facts and data about the school, including demographics, clubs and sports, special programs, etc. It will also include how many AP and honors classes they offer, how many students take them, how many get a passing grade on the AP exam, what is the middle 50%, top 20%, 10%, and 1% for GPA and SAT/ACT test scores, and how many National Merit Scholar semi-finalist and finalists they have.
So if your son's high school offers 25 AP classes, and the upper half of the class usually takes between 6 and 7, and your son has taken only 1, but has gotten As in honors and on-level classes, the admissions counselor will probably come to the conclusion that your son is bright but doesn't push himself very much. And, he is not going to compare as well as another kid attending a school with a similar school profile who maybe doesn't have as high an unweighted GPA, but has taken 6 or 7 (or more) AP classes.
Many high schools post their school profile on their website, if you'd like to see what the college admissions counselors are looking at to evaluate your son's rigor, I would start there. If they don't post it, you can make an appointment with your son's guidance counselor and see if you can get a copy. Guidance counselors often also write a letter about your son to the college admissions office describing your son to them. They will often try to put the student in the context of the high school student body as a whole. Does he stand out in any way? Does he excel and if so how? This is how guidance counselors help college admissions counselors, who try to know about the schools in their region, but can't know about all of them. So, it would be a good idea to encourage your son to get to know his guidance counselor. If they actually know him when they write that letter, they can put a lot more real information about him (leadership ability, personality, strong character traits, etc.) in it.
Couple of things I think are not necessarily true, at least as blanket statements. Honors classes also count toward rigor and will be relevant to a college admissions counselor. Many colleges don't give honors classes as much weight as AP classes in their consideration of rigor because not all honors classes are equal. One school district's idea of an honors class could be very different than another's. AP on the other hand is at least theoretically taught to a particular standard set by the College Board. That is why college admissions counselors will give them more consideration than an honors class. And while some more-selective private schools (not all but some) won't give college credit for them, they will look at whether your son took them, what grade he got in them, and whether he got a 4 or a 5 on the exam when evaluating the rigor of his high school curriculum.
Also, how a particular college handles the weight high schools attach to honors and AP classes will differ and you will need to check with each college your son is considering to know what they do in making an admissions decision. But, many selective colleges DO care about and like weighted GPAs. That's because they can report them to US News and World Report and help their ranking.
College admissions folks keep their own private list of high schools that they feel practice grade inflation...if your school is on that list, it will be a detriment...unbeknownst to you.
JCG wrote "Is the course work going to prepare him or her to thrive academically in college?"
This is so on point! There is a huge discrepancy in public school curriculum from district to district in Texas. I say this from personal experience. My oldest 2 sons graduated from a respected Dallas area suburban public HS. The entire district is regarded as being very strong academically. The problem is that it really isn't - not anymore. It was 40 years ago - but not now. This district has pulled the wool over the eyes of their residents with a publicity campaign chalk full of fake news. Hiring practices wreak of nepotism. Every student gets a juice box and a trophy. I could go on and on. Point being neither of my sons that graduated from this HS were prepared to succeed in college. One overcame his lack of preparation and has been ultra-successful in college & beyond. The other one has struggled. As a result we moved our youngest son out of this school after his freshman year. He graduated in 2018 from a public HS in a neighboring district. This HS is in the top 1% of all public HSs in the nation. His 3.6 GPA was not in the top 50% of his graduating class. But he graduated with 18 hours of college credits and was completely prepared for college. Baseball played a part in the decision to change schools but in hindsight the biggest benefit (by far) was on the academic side of the equation.
Tug Tide posted:In fact, if a couple of online summer courses are taken each year, students can graduate HS with an AA in hand.
That only leaves 2 years for college baseball (undergrad)! I guess he should start thinking about playing as a grad student, too. 
Is there a general accepted definition of what a HA school is?
In every D1 that I've heard, the path to admissions is DIFFERENT for an athlete and a regular applicant. (Not necessarily true for D3s.)
Taking the regular admit first (and a kid never knows if he'll need to compete with that group - injuries, burnout, etc.) and addressing ONLY THE HAs: an absolute requirement is that the applicant take "the most rigorous" curriculum offered by THAT HS. (A kid isn't penalized if his school offers none, few or many APs/IBs or whatever name a school uses to label its most challenging classes.)
The KEY is taking the courses which allow the Guidence Counselor to check the "most rigorous" box on the GSs portion of the college app. The time to learn what this means at your HS is in 9th grade with a visit to the GC; convey to the GC your desires for S's HS classes. (I know HS' with a dozen APs and those with only a couple; a kid taking 6 at one will NOT be equal to the kid who exhausted their HS offerings - if kids could've taken more than 6.)
Kids who did not take the MR of a HS loses to the kid who did.
Grades matter. Absent the athletes "hook," the applicant pool is stuffed absolutely full of straight A MR kids. So, the kid taking the honors class and fulfilling his potential with an A will always be facing a kid with an A in the AP - and, all other things being equal, loses.
(I am not speaking to the quality of teaching- but will note that very few HS teachers of biology are equal to a college prof teaching bio. I am not speaking to HAs not giving credit for 5s on APs [much less 4s]. APs, for better or worse, are differentiators, and to get into a HA are the RULES OF THE GAME.)
As you navigate the system many times the "rigidity" of a schools class schedules can stand in the way of a kid reaching his HS potential. This is particularly true on math, where many schools max out at AP Calc B/C. This problem demands active parental advocacy; an involved parent can cut through the roadblock - and get the kid to, e.g., skip pre-calc to go directly to AP Calc or even head off campus to the local college for a class - if the kid is ready. So, be involved and don't necessarily accept what the school offers "most kids."
Conclusion: 1. take the courses which get the MR box checked; 2. Get As. (Nothing wrong with trying hard and not getting an A; but, you're competing against someone who did.)
For recruited athletes in d1, the process differs. Some HAs aren't truly HAs when it comes to recruits; and even the IVYs take kids who wouldn't make the first cut in the regular pool. (For example, a 1200 SAT can get a kid into HYP, IF the kid was essentially an A student taking the MR, and IF the kid is projected to be an All-american.)
Here's my rec: set up a visit to the GC to understand the process; DO NOT SACRIFICE/EXCUSE taking a lesser course load because he's a 3 sport athlete; stay on top of his classes (APs move fast and a blink can set him back) by contacting his teachers for any early warning signs; if necessary, a tutor here and there can really help (like an individual coach in baseball); visit colleges of all academic levels and ask questions during the tour orientation.
(One other point made by several posters is that regular applicants compete against students coming out of similar schools. For athletes, not the case.)
@Opus X Opus X. I see you live in Suwanee (howdy neighbor!). Here is an example of a school profile from your area. This is North Gwinnett High School:
http://www.northgwinnett.com/_...-profile-2018-19.pdf
They offer 27 AP classes, and it looks like 60% of graduating seniors took at least one AP class last year. They don't say what their students' average number of AP classes over four years is, but my guess is it a good bit more than 1 because of UGA and GA Tech's admissions stats. The average number of AP/IB/DE classes for an accepted UGA freshman last year was 8, with the middle 50% range being 6-11. I think the more academically inclined students at most Atlanta area public high schools are trying to fall in that 6 to 11 range.
Just another two comments.
(1) The application numbers have gone way up -- colleges are getting more applications every year. Partly explained by the common app and the ease of pressing a button, partly explained by the rise in international apps. However, most colleges have NOT increased their admissions staff accordingly. There is not some long drawn out process to determine for each individual application if the student availed him or herself to the most rigorous academic offerings. There are quick pre screens, no pile, yes pile and maybe pile. Yes there is more to it than that but I am just saying the reason to take harder classes is because they better prepare you for college, you need the challenge, but not for some hope that it will slightly help (if at all) in the college process. If you are a recruited athlete (D1 or D3) it will matter even less for admission.
(2) The Ivy schools use an academic index what takes GPA and test scores, and test scores weigh more for all the reasons already discussed here. The coach must balance his recruits to meet this index for their sport and for their school. Football index for example is lower than golf or crew. NESCAC schools have banding. To simplify, for every recruit that is lower in the index or the banding, the coaches have to have recruits that have higher numbers to make it all fit within the prescribed numbers. So if a player with a 28 ACT score and a 3.2 GPA gets into X Ivy, first of all you can bet they are a stud player but then you can bet that other guys in the class have 34/35/36 scores to balance.
One HYP hockey coach told my son, we can always use an 8th defensemen. That is a direct quote. My son looked and said, but only 6 play and 7 dress at the most. Coach said, not everyone else has such a high score though and I need you so I can get the other 2 dumbasses through.
Funny thing about HA D3 football, at least at one school -- my son says they are among the smartest kids on campus, because most or all had to get in without help.
nycdad posted:Is there a general accepted definition of what a HA school is?
Not that I am aware of.
The College Navigator allows search by min SAT/ACT.
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator
I like to use the Entrance Difficulty field of the CollegeData Match tool. Schools listed as "Most Difficult" are definitely HA, and I consider most of the "Very Difficult" schools to be HA.
https://www.collegedata.com
The interesting thing is that a lot of people start thinking their kids are HA material after one or two terms in HS, but those HA coaches aren’t really looking at them until after their Junior year, which anecdotally is the students toughest, and standardized test scores are received before making a determination on whether to recruit them. Weighted GPA, IMO, is not a very good way to compare apples to apples because there can be such a variation in school districts and how they weight. I have seen bios on Florida students with 7 and 8 WGPAs. That kind of makes WGPA useless. Standardized test scores are the only real level playing field, and even then it’s not level based on how well prepared your school made you.
Twoboys posted:(1) The application numbers have gone way up -- colleges are getting more applications every year. Partly explained by the common app and the ease of pressing a button, partly explained by the rise in international apps. However, most colleges have NOT increased their admissions staff accordingly. There is not some long drawn out process to determine for each individual application if the student availed him or herself to the most rigorous academic offerings. There are quick pre screens, no pile, yes pile and maybe pile. Yes there is more to it than that but I am just saying the reason to take harder classes is because they better prepare you for college, you need the challenge, but not for some hope that it will slightly help (if at all) in the college process.
In terms of HA private colleges, this is not necessarily true. You only have to look at all the details about the holistic review process coming out of the Harvard lawsuit to see that at Harvard there is a fair amount of analysis and discussion about individual applicants. Multiple admissions people review each file and committees and subcommittees discuss and vote on each one. I see no reason to think Princeton and Yale are any different.
Here's recent description from the Washington Post of Harvard's process after looking at discovery materials in the Harvard lawsuit:
https://www.washingtonpost.com...m_term=.fbf8c718ea5a
Of course, recruited athletes have a much better acceptance rate than a regular applicant. If, and this is still a big if, a recruited athlete scores a 1 or a 2 (out of 6) on Harvard's admissions office academic rating, then they have an 83% chance of being admitted. But most high school students will not score a 1 or a 2.
According to the WaPo article:
"Only about 100 candidates a year receive an academic rating of 1 — even though thousands have perfect or near-perfect admission test scores and grades. A rule of thumb for an academic 2, as of 2014, was top grades and test scores in the mid- to high 700s (out of 800) on the SAT reading and math sections or at least 33 out of 36 on the ACT. But more goes into the academic rating than scores and grades. Readers take into account the rigor of classes students choose — given what is offered at their school — and what teachers and others say about them."
Here's Harvard's own Crimson discussing what the lawsuit shows about athletes:
CatcherDadNY posted:I post this not to discourage but to inform..I believe that knowledge is always a good thing when entering a situation because you can be sure that there are other parents who are well aware and so should you..If you are a private school student, the college application will be put in one pile...a public school student's in another, and a third pile is for legacies and potential big donors who are identified and courted by the school's regional rep at fancy restaurant lunches..each pile with it's own criteria for admission..this applies to many, many HA schools...not all..baseball helps...HS guidance counselors know this but won't say such because it's devastating...I know as I have many family in academia for generations who know the inside workings first hand..the world of college admissions is not as altruistic as we wish it were in these matters..assess what pile you may be in, be realistic, have a backup plan and do your best is my advice.
Harvard recently received negative front page exposure over a series of articles for their admissions practices. They’re in court over their discriminatory admissions policies.
I have read the Harvard lawsuit materials previously.
You are kidding yourself if you think that there are deep looks at every single candidate for the rigor of their HS curriculum. Most HSs are KNOWN to these HA colleges and a cursory glance indicates if they had rigor or not. Yes the recs matter, esp the guidance counselor who speaks to this issue. Yes they all claim they look at each applicant holistically. But what I said is true, the number have increased and admissions staff have not proportionally. There are "no" piles that help weed out some almost immediately. And there are VIPs that go through a different process. No one opined on Malia Obama's academic rigor.
The votes are based on recommendations by the geographically responsible admissions person. Do you really think they vote on the 43,000 applicants individually? They have less than 12 weeks.
Look at the numbers a HA admits. Subtract the number of athletes. To garner a cherished non athletic spot at some of these schools is like winning the lottery. Almost literally.
CatcherDadNY posted:College admissions folks keep their own private list of high schools that they feel practice grade inflation...if your school is on that list, it will be a detriment...unbeknownst to you.
This would be most high schools now. The average graduating unweighted GPA in 2017 was 3.5.
As you can see, each school (secondary and college) are going to give you different answers, along with parents who have players in college now. I am HS teacher and have been through the experience with my son as well. I am just going to share with you what a local HA, engineering school, adviser shared with me. They want to see rigor and have specific courses that they would like to see students take before graduating HS. That same adviser told me that the biggest mistake they see made by students is taking too many AP courses with those grades bringing down students unweighted GPA which can effect their ability to get into a HA school.
As a teacher, I also see this happen every day. There are definitely students who need the challenge of AP coursework and I have seen students take 5 AP courses at one time and be highly successful. The problem is that too many parents are pushing their children to keep up with the high achieving students when they don't have the academic ability to do so. We allowed our son to take 1 AP course his soph year, with 2 each year for remainder of high school. Worked out great for him.
I think it is also important to note that, depending on the school district, schools are measured by the number of students who AP test along with the number who receive a 3 or higher. So many of these kids are receiving recommendations from each one of their core classes to take an AP course. It is important to remind your student that they are going to have to say no to some of these teachers!
Lots of good posts above. To add to what LuckyCat, Goosegg, TwoBoys and others posted:
From the Harvard Crimson article: "recruited athletes with an academic rating of 4 had an acceptance rate of 70.46 percent, nearly a thousand times greater than the 0.076 percent admit rate for non-athletes with the same academic rating." Being a recruited athlete is an astronomical advantage.
Also, the AI calculation is comprised of (1) ACT or SAT, (2) GPA, and (3) SAT Subject tests, but the Ivies let the schools not count the subject tests, and double-count the ACT or SAT if it advantageous to the athlete to do so. So just nail the ACT or SAT. Just by way of example: 32 ACT, 600 on Bio subject test, 600 on History subject test, 3.4 unweighted GPA results in a 215 Academic Index because the ACT score is double-counted (and the subject tests not counted at all). I know this is in the weeds, but the takeaway is that the ACT/SAT is really, really important in an AI calculation.
Twoboys posted:I have read the Harvard lawsuit materials previously.
You are kidding yourself if you think that there are deep looks at every single candidate for the rigor of their HS curriculum. Most HSs are KNOWN to these HA colleges and a cursory glance indicates if they had rigor or not. Yes the recs matter, esp the guidance counselor who speaks to this issue. Yes they all claim they look at each applicant holistically. But what I said is true, the number have increased and admissions staff have not proportionally. There are "no" piles that help weed out some almost immediately. And there are VIPs that go through a different process. No one opined on Malia Obama's academic rigor.
The votes are based on recommendations by the geographically responsible admissions person. Do you really think they vote on the 43,000 applicants individually? They have less than 12 weeks.
Look at the numbers a HA admits. Subtract the number of athletes. To garner a cherished non athletic spot at some of these schools is like winning the lottery. Almost literally.
No I don't think they debate and discuss all 40,000 applicants. All but about 7,000 are wholly unqualified for admission and would not be discussed at all. Unless they are a Z-lister, a legacy, or a recruited athlete, almost all of them will be screened out based on their test scores and GPA alone. (There are also some tall poppies in other areas -- the arts, individual research, extraordinary public service -- that will get through even if their academics aren't top notch.) It's when you get to that 7,000 or so and you have to cull down to 2,000 admits that the discussion and debate really starts.
About 70% of recruited athletes with a 4 academic rating (which is probably what a lot of good but not great high school students would get) are admitted to Harvard. Those are good odds, but they aren't guaranteed admission. It's how you score on the other ratings, what the admissions folks and alumni interviewers say about you, and whether the coach is willing to push for you in particular that matter at that point.
But, that's just Harvard. Plenty of other private, highly selective colleges out there not getting 40,000 applications. Most probably get 4,000 to 6,000 for their freshman class of 500 to 1,000. I am willing to bet most of these colleges, after screening out the wholly unqualified, go through a careful holistic review of the rest of the applicants to build their freshman class. Then, how many AP classes you took in comparison to the student body at your school will in fact matter, along with a lot of other things.
2019Dad posted:Lots of good posts above. To add to what LuckyCat, Goosegg, TwoBoys and others posted:
From the Harvard Crimson article: "recruited athletes with an academic rating of 4 had an acceptance rate of 70.46 percent, nearly a thousand times greater than the 0.076 percent admit rate for non-athletes with the same academic rating." Being a recruited athlete is an astronomical advantage.
Also, the AI calculation is comprised of (1) ACT or SAT, (2) GPA, and (3) SAT Subject tests, but the Ivies let the schools not count the subject tests, and double-count the ACT or SAT if it advantageous to the athlete to do so. So just nail the ACT or SAT. Just by way of example: 32 ACT, 600 on Bio subject test, 600 on History subject test, 3.4 unweighted GPA results in a 215 Academic Index because the ACT score is double-counted (and the subject tests not counted at all). I know this is in the weeds, but the takeaway is that the ACT/SAT is really, really important in an AI calculation.
I never considered Harvard and Yale might have won NCAA hockey national championships with skating valedictorians. They’re probably rarer than skating dancing bears. 🙂
Thanks for the Harvard article. My 2020 has about a 3.5 from a private HS, and should test ~1370 on the SAT, never even considered an Ivy, but his grandfather in Princeton alumni, worth exploring further if he has the required baseball schools of course.
