Question about grading players

postion grades

hit
power frequency
run
throw
field

pitcher grades

fb
cb
sl
chg
other
control

command and movement are also graded but do not factor in to the summation of the above.

Control is how many BB's a pitcher would throw in a 9 inn game. Less than 3 is the goal.

Command is the ability to make your pitches work for you. Its the ability to hit small spots and move the ball around the zone WITHOUT throwing the ball right down broadway.

I have no idea what raw contact is. contact is contact

scouts do however grade raw power but it is not figured into the summation of the postion grades.

Bat speed and swing quickness are huge. Plate discipline goes in with the hit grade.

Thank you.

I thought raw power only was graded and power frequency was considered a secondary tool. I've seen in some articles scouts when talking about power say,"can he turn that power into game power production?"

For pitching, if command and movement aren't factored into the summation, then what is? What more is there to grade in a pitch, except maybe deception?

I'm curious about player development too. When reading scouting reports on MLB's draft pages, the top rounders usually have "good" or "great" hitting and power ability. So then why do they get thrown in the minors first? I figured that since they have average or better hitting ability and production, wouldn't that mean that they could hit better than your average MLBer right now?

The ability may be there, but the experience of facing professional pitching isn't.

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Originally posted by CADad:
The ability may be there, but the experience of facing professional pitching isn't.

Correct. There are but a handful of players who are able to go into MLB within a short period of time. And fo r whatever reason even the best don't make it.

Am I missing something? I think that some people think that because a player is successful on the HS, college level they get to a free pass to MLB.

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I thought raw power only was graded and power frequency was considered a secondary tool.

Frequency is how many HR's the player will hit in a 162 game season. Thats far more imprtant than raw power which is how far you can hit it.

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I've seen in some articles scouts when talking about power say,"can he turn that power into game power production?

True...Thats RAW power. Just because you can hit it a long way doesn't mean you can hit HR's. You have to have some hitability.

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For pitching, if command and movement aren't factored into the summation, then what is? What more is there to grade in a pitch, except maybe deception

Whats figured in is the pitches. FB, CB, SL, CHG, and any other pitch the guy may throw. Then control is figured in. Decpetion is included in with movement. Each pitch gets a grade and then control gets a grade.

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I'm curious about player development too. When reading scouting reports on MLB's draft pages, the top rounders usually have "good" or "great" hitting and power ability. So then why do they get thrown in the minors first? I figured that since they have average or better hitting ability and production, wouldn't that mean that they could hit better than your average MLBer right now?

Keep in mind the key word here is "ability". They project to be good hitters with power potential. Most, almost all, amatuer hitters need 1500 minor league AB's to be able to have a chance facing big league pitching. There are exceptions but very very few.

Scouts grades reflect a present grade of their ability now and a future grade of what their potential may evolve into.

Thanks again, but I'm actually more confused now. If someone is grading with a good hitting ability, then how can they need x number of minor league at bats before they can effectively hit well in the majors? If a prospect is graded as having plus hitting ability (better than major league average), but will get slaughtered by "better pitching" in the majors, then they don't exactly have "plus hitting ability" then do they? The logic is confusing here.

Or is it that the "plus hitting ability" they refer to the PROJECTION instead and not the current ability?

So when reading some of these reports on http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/draft/y2006/tracker/search.jsp these 2006 first-rounders how should you interpret them? Does Hochevar have a "plus breaking ball" now or is that projected? Can Evan Longoria "hit for average and power" now or is that another projection? Colton Willems "got three above-average pitches -- fastball, curve, slider"? Are they plus already? And if they are projections instead, then does that mean they are actually average or below average currently?
I find it hard to understand scouting reports because I think they're pretty vague.

Ok, now lemme try this according to my understanding here. When grading hitting ability, scouts factor in: contact, swing mechanics, plate discipline/pitch recognition, patience, and plate coverage?

Power:bat speed, raw power, loft?

Speed: When timing home-to-first times, is that from contact, or when the batter actually starts running? I ask this because if Ichiro were to have a normal swing his home-to-first time would probably be a tenth of a second slower, but that doesn't mean that he runs slower, does it? Is baserunning instincts factored in?

Fielding: hands, receiving, footwork, agility, range, instincts

Arm: velocity, carry, and accuracy?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Whats figured in is the pitches. FB, CB, SL, CHG, and any other pitch the guy may throw.

But what exactly is figured in primarily? I know for FB it's velocity, but for others is it the breaking sharpness/movement?

So if someone has a CB with avg movement (50) plus control (60) average command (50) and below avg deception (40) do you just add all those up and divide by the number of factors? (50+60+50+40=200 divided by 4 equals 50).

As for command, can someone have good command with poor control, or vice versa? I see a lot of pitchers who throws strikes but leave their FB high in the zone a lot when they are aiming for a low corner zone. And is consistency a part of command?

I might have more questions later as I find this stuff fun and interesting to learn about. Thanks again.

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Thanks again, but I'm actually more confused now. If someone is grading with a good hitting ability, then how can they need x number of minor league at bats before they can effectively hit well in the majors? If a prospect is graded as having plus hitting ability (better than major league average), but will get slaughtered by "better pitching" in the majors, then they don't exactly have "plus hitting ability" then do they? The logic is confusing here.

True, all present hit grades for position players would be below avg. Most clubs present hit grade would reflect how they feel a hitter would perform his 1st summer in pro baseball. 2/ will struggle, 3/ will hold his own or 4/ will excel at the level he is placed. Almost every amatuer hitter would be a 2/ if they were placed in the big leagues right away but could be a 4/ if placed in the short season pioneer league.

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Or is it that the "plus hitting ability" they refer to the PROJECTION instead and not the current ability?

yes as explained above. Its future ability.

What it says is that when he is "ON" he has a plus breaking ball. Means its not plus all the time. But has a chance to be plus most of the time.

Longoria, has hit at every level and "projects" to be able to hit with avg and with power. Problem is you really won't know until he gets a chance against the best.

At times Colton has 3 above avg pitches. These reports come from the scouting bereau and are future grades. Could be a avg and flash some plus as well.

When grading a hitter. Yes they factor in the things you mentioned.


running speed is from "Anticipated contact". also true on Ichiro and yes path instincts are important unless your a bopper only.

Yes, the lateness to the break and the kind of break to the CB and the slider and the deception and movement to the chg.

No, CB movement and cb control and cb command and cb deception and cb velocity all figure into A cb grade and same for Sl and chg.

As for command and control. Some ones command can affect their control. If they pick the corners all the time you can expect them to walk more hitters. Also, lots of pitchers WOULD walk more hitters in amatuer ball if hitters knew the strike zone better. So a good scout takes that into consideration. Its NOT command if he can't do it consistently, now is it?

OK that clarifies a few things. Thanks again. I forgot to ask earlier, but how do you know all of this? Are you a scout or coach yourself? Have you talked and asked pro scouts these same questions? And do you have a sample of an actual full report of an actual player or something like that?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that 2/ 3/ 4/ grading thing. Are these on the 2-8 scale or is this some other 2-4 scale? Does this mean that if some is graded with 4/ power that he is expected to hit a below average amount of homers, say 10 in 150 games played?

What exactly do you mean when you say CB velocity is factored in the grade? Does a harder CB get a better grade? Or is it the velocity in relation to the FB velocity?

I find it confusing when reading scouting reports that they are referencing future tools rather than current tools. When I read something like "he has good power" it sure sounds like he has-at the moment-good power, since that's more grammatically correct. Then again I'm now thinking that they aren't intended to be grammatically correct.

So let's look at this report: Pereira has an advanced feel for pitching despite his youth, and he wins high marks for his mound presence. He has an above-average curveball and a good changeup that should eventually turn into a plus pitch as he gains experience. His fastball is only adequate at this stage, but he figures to pick up velocity as his body fills out, and he might eventually get the heater up to 90 mph.

So does this mean that at the time this was written that he actually had an average CB and average change, with and adequate FB? And would his grades go something like this? FB: 50 CB:60 CH: 60 That looks like a solid MLBer to me if I'm correct.

How about this one of Jason Neighborgall: The fastball would have been enough, finding kids who can hit triple digits on the radar gun just doesn't happen very often, but Neighborgall features three above average pitches. As a starter that fastball still runs up there in the 95-97 range, Rizzo rates his breaking ball an 80 as well because it breaks both down and away to right handers, and his change up is above average as well. If his mechanics can get straightened out those three pitches mean two things, he can dominate, and more to the point, he can start.

So he actually currently has an average changeup and a 60 or 70 CB?

A lot of the jargon used in these reports mean nothing to me as well. But I think I'll start another thread on that.

Oh, and when talking about projection, are scouts referring to the player's highest ceiling? Or are they anticipating how he'll grade out in 5 years or the next year?

Thanks again!

the 2/3/4/ thing is just what I described.

Most clubs use only 2-3-4 when grading the hitting tool in the present grade. It tells player development what type hitter the player is RIGHT NOW.

2 will struggle his 1st summer in pro ball
3 Will struggle some but hold his own his 1st summer in pro ball
4 will excell his 1st summer in pro ball

CB velocity would be relative to what ML pitchers throw them at.

Keep in mind hitters get evaluated with "Aluminum" in their hands. Thats why mechanics are important.

avg and above avg to one scout doesnt mean avg to above avg to the next one.

projection is what the player will be at the highest level of play. The big leagues. Keep in mind scouting is not an exact science. You like a player and you dream on that player and sometimes you over shoot with your projections and dreams.

Ok, thanks.So what would the present/future grades on report on a typical drafted player's scouting report look like on, say, a college 3B drafted in the middle rounds?

Oh, and I should also ask, if 50 is major league avg. then would it be safe to say that AAA average is 45, AA is 40, A is 35, etc.? Or are most minor leaguers preset tools only a tick below avg. (45 or 40)?

Teluog,

I don't know if that kind of computation has ever been made.

Here's where I really miss our old friend bbscout. He would know how to answer your question instantly.

A player has to have the ability, gain the experience to play at the pro level, and then be in the right place at the right time to actually crack a major league roster.

Sometimes a player might make a major league roster that is considered to have one tool that is significantly less than MLB average. Maybe a power hitter has a weaker arm and less speed. But, if there is an injury and the player is available at the right time he might get the nod. At least until another better option comes along.

My son attended a college where the outfield was huge and always had a significant wind factor. Their recruiting focused on speed for the outfielders to be able to run the balls down in the gaps. They also had to have good arm strength, but they might not hit as well.

I think the scouting report grade is more of a starting point.

I know that all minor leaguers have the potential to be major league baseball players, or they wouldn't be in the minor leagues.

The scouting report's/evaluation tools are only a portion of the overall picture of a player that develops over many, many years. In other words, scouts are able to eventually reconcile performance to the scouting report over time. In fact they monitor young players as the improve those tools over time. (He ran a 6.9 sixty laster year at PG and a 6.7 this year)

I would encourage you again to read the book by Eugene Coleman. In that book, he writes about how the performance statistics impact the game.

For, example, the MLB sixty yard AVERAGE is 7.0. The AVERAGE time for a ball hit to mid to deep outfield and be returned to a base is about 7.0

The time for the runner to go from 1st to second with a lead is about 3.5. While the time for delivery from the mound is 1.5 and with the 2.0 pop totals about 3.5.

So, you can bet that with a Pudge at 1.8 and a runner at 3.5, he ain't going in most situations, while a 3.3 runner and an average pitcher and catcher will get the green light.

Teluog

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So what would the present/future grades on report on a typical drafted player's scouting report look like on, say, a college 3B drafted in the middle rounds?

Middle Rounds? 20-30???

He more than likely knows how to play the game and he may have some bat ability.

It could be any number of grades

Here is an axample for the exercise

Hit Present 4 future 5
Power 4 4
Arm 5 5
Field 4 5
Run 4 3

Would make his OFP a 44

OFP = Overall Future Potential

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I should also ask, if 50 is major league avg. then would it be safe to say that AAA average is 45, AA is 40, A is 35, etc.? Or are most minor leaguers preset tools only a tick below avg. (45 or 40)?

Of course not. There are many many players in AAA with 60 and 70 arms. An arm does not make a major league player. Most guys in AA and AAA just lack the ability to be consistent.

The tools grade is not based on minor league levels. Its based on major league avg.

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A player has to have the ability, gain the experience to play at the pro level, and then be in the right place at the right time to actually crack a major league roster.

Sometimes a player might make a major league roster that is considered to have one tool that is significantly less than MLB average. Maybe a power hitter has a weaker arm and less speed. But, if there is an injury and the player is available at the right time he might get the nod. At least until another better option comes along.

That's something I've realized about this whole scouting business...business! Baseball seems to be more of a business than a sport.

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Of course not. There are many many players in AAA with 60 and 70 arms. An arm does not make a major league player. Most guys in AA and AAA just lack the ability to be consistent.

The tools grade is not based on minor league levels. Its based on major league avg.

I'm aware of that. What I meant was if you were to take the average tool of someone in say AAA, would their tools be a tick lower than someone in the Majors? And since the MLB average is a 50 then wouldn't a minor league average be a tick or two below, at 40 or 45?

I might grab those books sooner than later, since this stuff is getting more interesting. Too bad bbscout isn't around.

I am a scout! You need ONLY ONE BOOK.

Dollar Sign on the Muscle

Why you dont just go and order it I have no idea.

As for your last question. AAA players are made up of several different types.
1) Guys on the way to the big leagues
2) Guys who are up and down players based on injuries at ML level
3) Guys on back side of their careers who still want to play.
4) Guys who have good tools yet can't get them to play
5) Guys who are good minor league players

You will see guys in AAA with just as good if not better tools than alot of ML guys. Either they are not ready yet for the ML or they just can't make their tools playable.